AidanLFC1 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 21 minutes ago, Heinzreich said: I like the idea of the weights/heights. I also like but am weary of the switch to AI just because of how hard it can be sometimes to establish a general "look" to things. Whether the lighting is different or the color-grading is off, or whatever. I would like to see a peek at a few of the new portraits they've made just to see if they have a consistent/regular look to them. One thing that's always bothered me is the mismatching positions of the image on the portrait. Like how some are to the side or zoomed in/out too much, or might have a different background compared to the rest even. If it's more like the upper row compared to the bottom, I think I might die. I am hoping they share what the prompt-style of their generations are, that way people can match it. 100% agree with this. If we’re going down the AI route it needs to be consistent with the styling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdJames Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 And those three renders are awesome, by the way! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Roguey Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 16 minutes ago, EdJames said: Quick maths time... 3,000 renders. 1,000 unassigned renders. Assume 1 hour to do each render Assume working 7 hours a day on it. That would take one individual 571 days to complete with no commercial incentive to do it and the assumption that they are otherwise unemployed and can attribute that amount of time. Realistically, let's imagine it's someone doing 3 hours a night on it in their downtime. It's now taking three-and-a-half years. Now let's assume that becomes a commercial arrangement and Adam pays the $30 an hour lowest-end rate for a 3D Renderer to spend the best part of two years doing this for him. Total final cost $120,000. Plus the cost of the 3D assets required to make a varied 3,000 worker database of pictures varied and original. That wipes 4,000 buyers off the table for Adam assuming they each buy the game at an average cost of $30. ----- So no, I'm not sure it is all that different 😂 I'm not a renderer so I can't really comment on the hours used but from having seen the TVerse team and other non TVerse renderers work, I doubt it takes one hour per render but that's by the by. The main point of the post is that, on a more theoretical level, there isn't a difference between someone doing 3000+ images by writing a sentence and walking away to make a coffee and someone setting a render to process in Daz and walking away to make a coffee if it's been requested, it's all in the love of the game. Either way, there are pros and cons for each camp and there is no real answer that appeases everyone. Rest of the features announced so far for the game sound great (big fan of real heights and weights because it helps my brain tick more) and I assume the best is yet to come so dwelling on this one point much longer isn't going to do anyone any good for now. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdJames Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 Just now, Big Roguey said: I'm not a renderer so I can't really comment on the hours used but from having seen the TVerse team and other non TVerse renderers work, I doubt it takes one hour per render but that's by the by. The main point of the post is that, on a more theoretical level, there isn't a difference between someone doing 3000+ images by writing a sentence and walking away to make a coffee and someone setting a render to process in Daz and walking away to make a coffee. Either way, there are pros and cons for each camp and there is no real answer that appeases everyone. Rest of the features announced so far for the game sound great (big fan of real heights and weights because it helps my brain tick more) and I assume the best is yet to come so dwelling on this one point much longer isn't going to do anyone any good for now. I bet the various AI modders on here wish it was as simple as "writing a sentence and walking away to make a coffee" 🤣 TVerse is much less intensive than, and apologies for keep using his as example, the work that goes into a J_Silver render. I'd be amazed if he knocks those out in anything less than an hour each. But anyway - there's a reason nobody has ever sat and done 3,000 renders on their own - it's simply too much work for one person to do. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astil Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 I mean there was also the option to 'leave it as is' Maybe I'm an old but is AI art renders going to sell product more than regular renders, even bad ones? Its not as if mods dont exist and a majority who dont like the CVerse play some kind of mod anyway? Seems like a false choice to say AI or redo the whole thing. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Superman 3 of People Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 22 minutes ago, EdJames said: Total final cost $120,000. Competently made art costs time and money? Dang. If only there were multi-year gaps between releases, a revenue stream from currently existing products, and one common area - a forum, if you will - where people posted portfolio pieces that could be used to gauge their talent prior to their hiring. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astil Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 Also, I think it should be clear the concern on my end and my end only is not AI art it is Midjourney AI Art. I dont want to come across as anti AI art in full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatingstuff88 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 7 minutes ago, EdJames said: I bet the various AI modders on here wish it was as simple as "writing a sentence and walking away to make a coffee" 🤣 Exactly this.. i have to use Bing for mine and the amount of rephrasing and synonym searching i need to do is maddening, for example if i write "female wrestler" it will get blocked, but if i write "female in ring competitor" its suddenly ok, but not if i ask for a 30-year old female in ring competitor, thats a forbidden prompt, yet if i use "25 year old female in ring competitor" its fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdJames Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 2 minutes ago, Astil said: I mean there was also the option to 'leave it as is' Maybe I'm an old but is AI art renders going to sell product more than regular renders, even bad ones? Its not as if mods dont exist and a majority who dont like the CVerse play some kind of mod anyway? Seems like a false choice to say AI or redo the whole thing. You're of course completely right, could just leave it as it was. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heinzreich Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 (edited) 21 minutes ago, EdJames said: And those three renders are awesome, by the way! Thanks! I only started switching to AI portraits in February mainly because of @WalterSobchak's and @Shmoe II's stuff, and then got into making my own to try and build off of theirs. But it's stuff like theirs that I'd like to see in IX- a good consistent style with consistent positioning. When the AI portraits first started popping up on the render threads, I avoided them because there was no regular style or positioning yet. If it's all over the place then I don't see the point honestly. The rest of the features sound great though! 14 minutes ago, Big Roguey said: The main point of the post is that, on a more theoretical level, there isn't a difference between someone doing 3000+ images by writing a sentence and walking away to make a coffee and someone setting a render to process in Daz and walking away to make a coffee. I spent 5 days or 183 prompts with ChatGPT trying to get it to generate 5 logos semi-recently, and have spent around an hour or so on a few characters I've made. The DAZ stuff takes a lot more time and in some cases looks better, but I wish AI was just as simple as leave and make coffee. But I'm also not one of those people that say AI is art or more difficult to use because it's not imo. It's definitely not hard, but it's not easy either. But yes, I do understand the joke lol. Edited July 3 by Heinzreich 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdJames Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 5 minutes ago, The Superman 3 of People said: Competently made art costs time and money? Dang. If only there were multi-year gaps between releases, a revenue stream from currently existing products, and one common area - a forum, if you will - where people posted portfolio pieces that could be used to gauge their talent prior to their hiring. How many copies do you reckon Adam shifts of each version of TEW? I tried to do a little research but couldn't find it anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Roguey Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 At the risk of being seen to be the big bad forum police (again), let's drop the topic about how many copies of TEW get shifted and research etc. We went through this once with 2020 and it was fairly unpleasant so for everyone's sake and board harmony, let's not go back to that well. If Adam or Arlie want to chime in on it, they will but the rest is not for us in the peanut gallery to really speculate. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDeep5ix Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 (edited) 10 minutes ago, The Superman 3 of People said: Competently made art costs time and money? Dang. If only there were multi-year gaps between releases, a revenue stream from currently existing products, and one common area - a forum, if you will - where people posted portfolio pieces that could be used to gauge their talent prior to their hiring. How much money do you think TEW makes? According to Steam Charts, Pro Wrestling Sim has an average of ~70 players online at a time, so I can't imagine there are too many people who actively play TEW and its offshoots to the point where you recommend spending $100K+ on thousands of renders that many players will ignore in favor of real-life mods. Not to mention, the developer(s) have to live and need money to do so, so they can't all pitch in for such renders. Edited July 3 by TheDeep5ix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Superman 3 of People Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 (edited) 5 minutes ago, EdJames said: How many copies do you reckon Adam shifts of each version of TEW? I tried to do a little research but couldn't find it anywhere. Irrelevant. If you can't afford to ethically source 4,000 unique art assets then you probably shouldn't make a game that requires 4,000 unique art assets. Edited July 3 by The Superman 3 of People 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdJames Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 3 minutes ago, Big Roguey said: At the risk of being seen to be the big bad forum police (again), let's drop the topic about how many copies of TEW get shifted and research etc. We went through this once with 2020 and it was fairly unpleasant so for everyone's sake and board harmony, let's not go back to that well. If Adam or Arlie want to chime in on it, they will but the rest is not for us in the peanut gallery to really speculate. Apologies - was only trying to make the point that wiping out the income from 4,000 customers would be madness. Consider the subject dropped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markw Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 Just now, TheDeep5ix said: How much money do you think TEW makes? According to Steam Charts, Pro Wrestling Sim has an average of ~70 players online at a time, so I can't imagine there are too many people who actively play TEW and its offshoots to the point where you recommend spending $100K+ on thousands of renders that many players will ignore in favor of real-life mods. Not to mention, the developer(s) have to live and need money to do so, so they can't all pitch in for such renders. I mean that figure has been pulled completely out of thin air. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questlove Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 34 minutes ago, EdJames said: Quick maths time... 3,000 renders. 1,000 unassigned renders. Assume 1 hour to do each render Assume working 7 hours a day on it. That would take one individual 571 days to complete with no commercial incentive to do it and the assumption that they are otherwise unemployed and can attribute that amount of time. Realistically, let's imagine it's someone doing 3 hours a night on it in their downtime. It's now taking three-and-a-half years. Now let's assume that becomes a commercial arrangement and Adam pays the $30 an hour lowest-end rate for a 3D Renderer to spend the best part of two years doing this for him. Total final cost $120,000. Plus the cost of the 3D assets required to make a varied 3,000 worker database of pictures varied and original. That wipes 4,000 buyers off the table for Adam assuming they each buy the game at an average cost of $30. ----- So no, I'm not sure it is all that different 😂 I wasn't implying it would be one person doing it all. Fact is there's loads of people doing it for free already so I don't think it's super far fetched to say a team could be put together and incentivised to do it for the next game (and even use a lot of the suoer high quality renders that are already out there, cutting down on time again) which would have avoided this inevitable month long debate over whether AI is good or bad 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VBigB Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 16 minutes ago, EdJames said: I bet the various AI modders on here wish it was as simple as "writing a sentence and walking away to make a coffee" 🤣 TVerse is much less intensive than, and apologies for keep using his as example, the work that goes into a J_Silver render. I'd be amazed if he knocks those out in anything less than an hour each. But anyway - there's a reason nobody has ever sat and done 3,000 renders on their own - it's simply too much work for one person to do. Well I will say that back when I did it regularly I was probably 2 - 3 hours per render for my best ones. More if I was doing my own custom textures. But I also always did full body renders, not head shots, and I preferred to fix problems pre-render rather than fixing in photoshop afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDeep5ix Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 I will say, I tend to favor the original works over the AI stuff, but people have to be practical with how much money is actually going to be spent on this niche game. Not to mention, you can just use alternate photos instead of the prepackaged AI stuff (which I most likely will do if the AI pics look terrible or are inconsistent). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questlove Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 1 minute ago, TheDeep5ix said: I will say, I tend to favor the original works over the AI stuff, but people have to be practical with how much money is actually going to be spent on this niche game. Not to mention, you can just use alternate photos instead of the prepackaged AI stuff (which I most likely will do if the AI pics look terrible or are inconsistent). To be fair we're 2 decades and tens of thousands of custom cverse renders in and budget has never once been a problem before, pretty sure the game's future doesn't depend on using AI 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdJames Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 9 minutes ago, Questlove said: I wasn't implying it would be one person doing it all. Fact is there's loads of people doing it for free already so I don't think it's super far fetched to say a team could be put together and incentivised to do it for the next game (and even use a lot of the suoer high quality renders that are already out there, cutting down on time again) which would have avoided this inevitable month long debate over whether AI is good or bad Yup, and that’s led us to where we’re are - 2,500 completely mismatched renders. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questlove Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 2 minutes ago, EdJames said: Yup, and that’s led us to where we’re are - 2,500 completely mismatched renders. Is that much of an issue? I use renders from loads of different people and as long as they're all quality I'm not remotely fussed 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatingstuff88 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 1 minute ago, Questlove said: Is that much of an issue? I use renders from loads of different people and as long as they're all quality I'm not remotely fussed I think that's mostly a personal thing though, Its a massive pet peeve of mine (so much so that i will not sign someone if they dont have a decent looking picture) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D16NJD16 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 We almost need a separate thread at this point.. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heinzreich Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 (edited) 14 minutes ago, TheDeep5ix said: I will say, I tend to favor the original works over the AI stuff, but people have to be practical with how much money is actually going to be spent on this niche game. Not to mention, you can just use alternate photos instead of the prepackaged AI stuff (which I most likely will do if the AI pics look terrible or are inconsistent). Absolutely. I don't think anyone would object to remaining with DAZ if the stream of content made with it could keep up with the rate that even quality AI stuff can be made. If there was a way to clone boxofwhispers, willr0ck, GreatreDRagon, Wrenegade, and BestForTheBusiness, and just get those clones to pump stuff out, I at least would gladly take their stuff over AI. Edited July 3 by Heinzreich 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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