The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[DaMegaFish]

Interesting.

 

I think it's an awful idea, and everyone else in this thread seems to. I figured that would be the general opinion among wrestling fans.

 

Maybe long term, yes. I am like most other people who think a few gimmick PPV's aren't bad, but this is a bit overkill. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the buy rates start to drop again in a year or two. Yeah, a Hell In A Cell themed PPV is cool, but eventually it gets to be just another PPV like the old ones used to. I think in general its killing the spirit of what the PPV's should be, and instead of the shows having stories that drive to the PPVs, the PPV's are creating the stories for the shows to drive to now. Does that make sense? Anyway, its going to kill some of the interest in what match John Cena and Randy Orton are having this month, because now we know if its at Hell In A Cell well its probably a HIAC match.

 

Not a fan, but I'm guessing a few guys at the top saw increases in buys for the few PPV's that have been gimmicked and this is the result.

[Sensai of Mattitude]

I think in general its killing the spirit of what the PPV's should be, and instead of the shows having stories that drive to the PPVs, the PPV's are creating the stories for the shows to drive to now. Does that make sense? Anyway, its going to kill some of the interest in what match John Cena and Randy Orton are having this month, because now we know if its at Hell In A Cell well its probably a HIAC match.

 

Not a fan, but I'm guessing a few guys at the top saw increases in buys for the few PPV's that have been gimmicked and this is the result.

 

This was exactly my thought. It completely ruins the spontaneousness of gimmick matches; a Hell in a Cell match used to happen once a year, and before spoilers came along I never knew when they were going to happen. The epic excitement of the announcement alone was brilliant. By knowing when it's going to happen, it just ruins that aspect of it.

 

Like you said, concept PPVs in moderation can work; I used to think that TNA's Lethal Lockdown (I think it was called that?) was a really good idea. But WWE have overdone it, both in quantity and the prestige (for the lack of a better word - the rarity?) of the matches being turned into concept PPVs.

[lazorbeak]

Changing gears but staying on the general topic of the thread, I've gone back and watched some early "Attitude" era stuff starting with Montreal and I just watched Summerslam 1998. I never watched this stuff while it was happening, as I didn't give up on WCW until early 1999 when the whole Rock/Mankind feud was up against the NWO post-fingerpoke reunion.

 

Anyway, here's some random thoughts on the period:

 

Definitely a more high impact style, with moonsaults, back suplexes, piledrivers, and other stuff you don't see on TV. I understand why a lot of that stuff got cut, but it'd be nice to see on PPV's at least. Terry Funk doing a moonsault onto two chairs on WWF TV is pretty crazy and probably the best example of how much WWF's product at the time owed to ECW.

 

At the same time, Austin was really innovating the current "main event" style that requires guys to go lower impact and really build a story. Obviously Austin was mostly known as a brawler but he had some underrated technical skills even after the neck injury, and his psychology was excellent. His matches with HBK, both with Dude Love, and Undertaker at Summerslam were all great. His match with Kane was decent, but not really at the same level.

 

Despite obviously being the top guy, Austin was off TV enough that he really managed to give some of the spotlight to DX, who were pretty incredibly over. Also to anybody that didn't see The Rock becoming a big superstar, I just have to question how big of a mark you were at the time. Rock's facial expressions and ability to get the crowd hot was just unbelievable. He took a really weak elbow drop and made it a huge move as a heel!

 

There was a discussion in the TEW 10 boards about Jeff Hardy's charisma, but for an example of bad charisma, look at WWF in 1998. Steve Blackman, Dan Severn, DOA (the Harris Brothers). A big part of that is facial expression but it's partly body expression, too. All of these guys moved like robots and never expressed any emotion, no matter what. None of them got over. Mark Henry only managed to leave his default expression when making eyes at Chyna, which I guess fueled the "Sexual Chocolate" gimmick, since there is literally nothing else he could do other than "be a big guy."

 

Sable was ridiculously over in this time period. It's a shame none of that heat ever really went to Marc Mero, as he wasn't half-bad in the ring once he'd given up the high-flying act.

 

Guys that could've been bigger:

 

D'Lo Brown: good charisma, big guy, the whole European Champion thing was great for him, but he needed to adjust his move-set if he ever wanted to be a big deal. His moves were athletic but they were mostly cruiserweight-style moves, and for a guy that was about 6'3-6'4, he needed to be built as stronger. I'm really worried Kofi Kingston ends up in the same boat, because he reminds me of D'Lo a lot.

 

Kurrgan and the Jackal: somebody brought up Cyrus in the ECW thread, and he was just great, but WWF completely missed the boat on him. He had a great monster heel in Kurrgan but because of politics or whatever Kurrgan did nothing but beat up jobbers and Jackal got his release. Kurrgan for some reason was made into a comedy babyface in some attempt to make sure he never drew any money ever. When I recognized Kurrgan in the new Sherlock Holmes I couldn't help but thing wrestling lost a guy they never even tried to push.

 

Ken Shamrock: I know he was King of the Ring and eventually won the IC title, but he could've been a huge star for WWF. Sure he wasn't all that big or all that great on the mic, but the fans believed he was a crazy bad-ass and the reactions when he "snapped" were comparable to any pop from anyone not named Steve Austin.

 

I can see why there's so many fans with rosy memories of this era, as it does make for pretty exciting stuff, but there is a lot of terrible stuff you'd never see on Raw today. A ten minute DOA/Legion of Doom match on Raw is just brutal. Jeff Jarrett and Jim Cornette's NWA revival was mercifully short-lived but replaced by the equally painful Double J and Tennessee Lee combination. Goldust had literally nothing to do, turned heel on Marlena to get her off TV, and by Summerslam is just doing brief spots where he's a straw man of christian values who hates WWF's content. Vader is completely wasted, but he was already halfway out the door. Bradshaw was wrestling every week but literally no one cared about him, although part of that might have been he kept a hilariously dumb mustache for a really long time. The "brawl for all" was really stupid and just as much a waste of television as the diva search, but at least it used guys actually under contract and succeeded in putting Bart Gunn over as a tough bastard. Of course, that didn't go anywhere and he was punked out by a guy that had gone 3 scripted rounds with marc mero when butterbean knocked him out in one round in a non-scripted fight.

 

But even with the negatives, stories developed much faster then they had (or do today), and probably the most interesting thing is how little structure there was at the top. Aside from Austin and Undertaker, nobody had been WWF champion as of April 1998. HBK, Bret, Sid and Nash were all gone and there were no "proven" draws on the roster. It actually made for much better television than WCW, where Flair, Hogan, Savage, Sting, Nash, Bret and Luger were all multi-time world champions but the 1998 crowd was giving Goldberg bigger pops than any of them.

[Bigpapa42]

Great post, Lazer. Going back and rewatching is great, although I have yet to focus on a specific era as you have here.

[MrCanada]

I just want to mention how amazing CM Punk is (as a heel especially) his promo during SmackDown right now is such proof of that. He gets legitement heel heat, not cheap, not X-Pac, and not "you are just beating the guy we like" heat.

 

I think its been a long time since theres truley been a heel (sans Jericho maybe) who can get as much heat on his own.

[Hyde Hill]

Yeah SD is kicking ass again especially with Edge back, now just to move titsa back to raw and have a little less taker and it will be truly must watch again. Too bad Zeke will come in and ruin it lolz. And I actually like big men but I like those that can go! So not him.

[Lostrelms]

Found this on Lordsofpain.net... kinda cracked me up a bit..

 

John Morrison Talks About Miz Mentoring Danielson, ECW Ending and His New DVD

By Marc Middleton

Feb 19, 2010 - 3:45:08 AM

 

 

- IGN.com has a new interview up with John Morrison. Here are a few highlights:

 

On his new DVD: "The usual Superstars DVD release is a 3-disc career retrospective and they wanted to try a new format. It's a one-disc engaging thing that someone can watch all in one sitting. I think they decided to have me be the experiment/prototype for it to see how the format would do. To see if it could be interesting or if it's going to sell. I think that was the thought behind it."

 

On ECW ending: "I think it's the end of an era. But the ECW that people fell in love with in the late '90s has been gone for a while already. What I think ECW presented was a big opportunity for a lot of WWE superstars. Definitely me. It revitalized my entire career when I moved to ECW. I became the ECW champion, and it's when I started tagging with The Miz. CM Punk debuted on ECW. That's where he started also. So I think it's going to be sad to see it go. But the show that's replacing it, the NXT show – I think hopefully it's going to do the same thing for a lot of people. It's going to give a lot of people an opportunity. I can't remember everyone on there, but I know that Bryan Danielson is on there. He's going to be one of the new guys on the show. So I hope it will give people the chance to make it big in WWE just like ECW did."

 

On The Miz mentoring Daniel Bryan: "Yeah, when I saw that, I was at the ECW taping, and I actually saw Miz. He didn't know either until he saw the graphic on the screen. That he was the "Pro" and Bryan Danielson was the student. I walked by and said, "Pssh, he knows more than you do." And that's pretty much what everyone thinks. It's gonna be interesting and I think that's the point of it."

[sabataged]

This is completely off topic but I have tickets to Elimination Chamber tomorrow and wow I am pissed. Not only will this be by far the worst WWE event I ever been too, but it is looking to be one of the worst PPV's I have ever seen. Right now there is only 4 matches on the card with a rumored 5th match. The EC matches are going to have to take a hour each just to make it the 3 hours.

[Prophet]

This is completely off topic but I have tickets to Elimination Chamber tomorrow and wow I am pissed. Not only will this be by far the worst WWE event I ever been too, but it is looking to be one of the worst PPV's I have ever seen. Right now there is only 4 matches on the card with a rumored 5th match. The EC matches are going to have to take a hour each just to make it the 3 hours.

 

Or, it goes to the other side of the spectrum, and becomes December to Dismember or Surrender or Upender or whatever they called that abomination ... the sequel! It may end an hour early, it may disappoint with nonsensical matches thrown in, and may result in completely lackluster finishes ... but it does have the bonus of the revenge of Curly's gold!

[Gabbo]

I think Morrison is a little bitter that everyone realises Miz was the talented one. Morrison is increasingly looking like a formulaic spot monkey and without his deadpan arrogance (as a heel), he doesn't really have alot of personality..

 

[lazorbeak]

I think Morrison is a little bitter that everyone realises Miz was the talented one. Morrison is increasingly looking like a formulaic spot monkey and without his deadpan arrogance (as a heel), he doesn't really have alot of personality..

 

 

Seriously? He's the first choice of WWE's new stars to get a DVD put out, he's one of the top babyfaces on Smackdown, and he has a great look. He's probably just giving a friend a hard time.

[Wrestling Century]

Who do you guys think are the best young prospects in WWE? I think that these guys are:

 

The Miz: Great Charisma and works well as a heel.

 

John Morrison: Works great as a heel and a face and has great charisma and athleticism.

 

Ezekiel Jackson: Great look, but he just needs to improve his in ring skills IMO.

 

Ted Dibiase (Jr.) and Cody Rhodes: Great mic work and charisma, with pretty good in ring skills.

 

Jack Swagger: I personally think that he has what it takes to become the next great technical wrestler that's in the same vein as Bret Hart and Kurt Angle.

 

Remember that this is all IMO, so no arguments!

[Self]

One Word. Dudebusters.

 

Although I have to admit, I'm growing tired of their lack of antics. Croft and Barreta should be doing awesome, fist-pounding skits on a weekly basis.

 

So excited for NXT I can barely stand it. Miz & Danielson is genius.

[The Masked Orange]

I'm conflicted over NXT. I'm gonna have to watch it before I right it off though.

[Self]

I'm conflicted over NXT. I'm gonna have to watch it before I right it off though.

 

Why would you write anything off before you've tried it once?

 

The thing I'm looking forward to the most is that I have very little idea what it's going to be like. That excites me. I want to be surprised. I want something DIFFERENT (although it's sounding almost like an Ultimate Fighter clone right now). I'm bored of WWE's wrestling format (and by extension TNA's more frenetic adaptation of it) I want something fresh, something new, and NXT might be it.

 

Maybe. I don't know. Hence the excitement.

[Hyde Hill]

Who do you guys think are the best young prospects in WWE? I think that these guys are:

 

The Miz: Great Charisma and works well as a heel.

 

John Morrison: Works great as a heel and a face and has great charisma and athleticism.

 

Ezekiel Jackson: Great look, but he just needs to improve his in ring skills IMO.

 

Ted Dibiase (Jr.) and Cody Rhodes: Great mic work and charisma, with pretty good in ring skills.

 

Jack Swagger: I personally think that he has what it takes to become the next great technical wrestler that's in the same vein as Bret Hart and Kurt Angle.

 

Remember that this is all IMO, so no arguments!

 

 

I disagree on Dibiase and Cody except the decent in the ring part, for me they are bland and boring as sin. Zeke needs to improve on his ringwork bigtime hes not even on Tista level. Miz is just a little bit better on the mic then Morrison at the moment because they are letting him and Morrison works better as a heel. But Morison is an uppermidcarder on Smackdown with a DVD and Miz is a midcarder on RAW with two belts. I would say Morrison is above Miz atm. Morrison is the best alround talent followed by Swagger who needs to work on his mic skills and then the Miz third from this list. IMO

[masterded]

Why would you write anything off before you've tried it once?

 

There are plenty of reasons to write things off before you try it. I have never shot myself in the arm; I don’t need to try it to know it is something I wouldn’t like. Though obviously that is an extreme example.

 

Speaking of NXT I am quite interested in what Daniel will be using for his finisher. I hope it is still The Cattle Mutilation not enough people have submission finishers in the WWE right now.

[BHK1978]

Call be narrow minded but I will never be able to take the Miz seriously. To me he will always be the guy from The Real World.

[jesterx7769]

Call be narrow minded but I will never be able to take the Miz seriously. To me he will always be the guy from The Real World.

 

exactly.

[masterded]

Call be narrow minded but I will never be able to take the Miz seriously. To me he will always be the guy from The Real World.

 

It just doesn’t bother me (though I am one of them weirdoes who know how dumb the RR is yet I watch it and love the RR Challenges) he clearly has natural charisma and timing on the mic and sure he isn't great in the ring but he always seems to be improving.

[The Masked Orange]

I don't think I'll like NXT, for a similar reason to why I didn't like Tough Enough, and why quite a few people did not like ECW.

 

But meh, what do I know?

[BHK1978]

I am going to give NXT a chance, but that is only because I do not watch anything on at that time on television.

 

I was not a fan of ECW and what it became. However, with a new name I am willing to see some of these new wrestlers and hopefully it will be a good show.

[Self]

I don't think I'll like NXT, for a similar reason to why I didn't like Tough Enough, and why quite a few people did not like ECW.

 

But meh, what do I know?

 

Curious now as to what the reason is. Not sure what ECW, Tough Enough and 'what NXT probably is' all have in common. Lack of stars? NXT has Jericho.

 

I am hoping NXT is kayfabe, or at least I hope it's not blatantly business-exposing like Tough Enough. I know everyone knows it's fake, and I like Tough Enough for what it was, but I'm hoping they're trying a new concept for telling wrestling stories, as opposed to doing a simple reality show. I hope they work the crap out of it.

[randomfreeze]

Why is being from the Real World a bad thing? I love that Miz was on the Real World and it's one of the reasons why I put up with his catchphrases and such. I almost wished they played off it more, but it's too late now with the direction they have gone with him.

 

No young guys have me super excited. I can't think of anyone who would start facing guys higher on the card and looking competitive against them would make me root for them more. Everyone Wrestling Century listed is just newer guys that are on TV a lot. Miz and Morrison aren't really rookies to this whole thing either anymore...they've been on TV for like six years.

 

But to be positive, I'm going to watch NXT, cheer for Slater, and hope this gives us some sort of fresh perspective on wrestling.

[PeterHilton]

Call be narrow minded but I will never be able to take the Miz seriously. To me he will always be the guy from The Real World.

 

exactly.

 

You're being narrow minded.

 

He was a 23 year old guy who loved wrestling his whole life before he went to UPW. And then Tough Enough. And then OVW.

 

He's not a seasoned worker, but he's certainly not the worst new worker that has showed up in recent years. He has good charisma. That's the reason he showed up on RW in the first place and why the producers kept bringing him back for challenges. And he knows how to work a crowd.

 

It's a work. What kind of background does someone need to have before you can 'take them seriously?' NCAA champion? Years in the indies? Former strip club bouncer?

 

Because if you look up and down that roster, I'm not sure how Miz's background is any less legitimate than the typical worker being brought up through the E's current development structure.