The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Zeel1]

what happened to Piper vs. McMahon did it just become Bret Hart vs. McMahon? They decide to hold the match off and reserve it for McMahon's annual 'Mania involvement next year?

 

I..don't think it was ever going to be Piper/McMahon. What gave you that idea?

 

Piper challenged him once months ago, but it was turned down, and they haven't mentioned it since, nor has Piper appeared since.

[Tag01]

Aaaaaand, I'm done with NXT. Crappy tag match. 45 minutes Wrestlemania commericals. Crappy tag match. End.

 

I'm just not into it. If this was in a new time slot I wouldn't really care, but I loved ECW and how much in ring action we got every week. The opening match had a ton of missed spots and was hard to watch. The main event was a little better, but I was so sick of watching Raw recaps I was pretty disinterested. I like Danielson as much as the next guy, but I could take or leave the rest of them and the show format still just seems very forced and akward.

[Self]

Just finished watching NXT, and it's still my favorite wrestling show right now. Flawed, but it's a bunch of new guys I haven't seen much of, and I dig that. Having not watched RAW, I enjoyed all of the Wrestlemania video packages. Tag matches weren't good, babyface-heel divide was skewed, but everybody got time in the ring, and a chance to experiment in front of the fans. The right teams won.

 

My roommate actually likes this show. He openly mocks wrestling. He refuses to have any part of Raw, Smackdown or TNA, and if I even think about putting a PPV on his 50' TV he'll go banana... but he has no problem with 42 minutes of NXT a week. The most amusing thing is, like any male standing next to the open hood of a car, he suddenly becomes an expert on how everything works. What's good. What's bad. How David Otunga needs 'more snap' on his crossface punches. Makes for an interesting TV experience for me.

[Remianen]

You mean dedicated tag teams are not going to ever amount to anything in the current wwe. I know the e treats their tag team division like dirt but this was even moreso. Seems they have given up on McIntyre as well then. I know he wasn't really getting over but neither was/is Sheamus and they are still pushing him.

 

Apples and steel belted tires. The only similarity is they're both composed of carbon.

 

Sheamus was built up as a monster, ending a guy's career. He beat the face of the promotion and is locked in to a match with 'The Franchise' at Wrestlemania. McIntyre was all hot air, built almost totally on Vince's words. He didn't beat the face of the promotion (or even the face of Smackdown), he hasn't gotten over enough to even sniff the main event. Thus, he gets to do what midcarders generally do: lay down for the big dogs who earn the money to keep the lights on. I wouldn't be surprised if they went with the last ditch measure of having him win MITB, only to have it taken from him (ala Kennedy), by hook or by crook, by Jericho or somebody.

 

I think McIntyre's best chance at salvaging his push is a John Morrison-esque repackaging. But that would be hard because the 'E already has someone like that. Guy's name is....wait, I know this one...oh yeah, John Morrison.

 

But I don't think the dearth of full time tag teams is necessarily the 'E's fault. Let's face it, there's a lot more money to be made as a singles worker than as even a successful tag team. You won't see the permanent fixture tag teams anymore because most of the time, one worker is a lot more attractive for singles action than the other. Rarely will you see a pair that's better together than they are apart (the Dudleys/Team3D come to mind as does the NAO). Cryme Tyme's the closest to them that I can see right now. Neither of them is going to really get over without the other. The Harts don't fit (David is a perfect fit for the 'E's preferred worker). Plus, tag teams need more tag teams to flourish. Chicken or egg proposition, that.

[Self]

But I don't think the dearth of full time tag teams is necessarily the 'E's fault. Let's face it, there's a lot more money to be made as a singles worker than as even a successful tag team. You won't see the permanent fixture tag teams anymore because most of the time, one worker is a lot more attractive for singles action than the other. Rarely will you see a pair that's better together than they are apart (the Dudleys/Team3D come to mind as does the NAO). Cryme Tyme's the closest to them that I can see right now. Neither of them is going to really get over without the other. The Harts don't fit (David is a perfect fit for the 'E's preferred worker). Plus, tag teams need more tag teams to flourish. Chicken or egg proposition, that.

 

I'm going slightly off-topic, but...

 

From where I'm sitting, the lack of 'money' in tag teams is a self-fulfilling prophecy. They don't draw because they aren't pushed above midcard status. The aren't pushed above midcard "because they don't draw". I may be missing something, but I don't see why the tag belts can't be Main Event belts for main event guys, other than this pre-conceived notion that being a solo competitor is 'better'. If I were running the shop (or if I could be bothered to download a Real World mod for TEW) the WWE Tag Titles would be main event straps. DX vs The Brothers of Destruction. Show-Miz vs Edge & Christian. Main event level feuds with main event level guys that can main event PPV's just as ably as the singles straps.

 

Personally, this me-me-me, every-man-for-himself mentality of being a singles competitor and going after solo glory sounds selfish. However, teaming up with someone, developing a trust and a friendship, working together towards a common goal... That sounds noble. Glorious. Frankly, those are qualities I'd expect a PG-company like WWE to be promoting to their young audience. The importance of friendship over personal ambition. The need to cultivate relationships over a personal need to 'be the best'.

 

I dunno. Maybe it's an American Superhero/Quarterback thing I just don't get, or maybe it's because I'm a twin and thus naturally see myself as part of a pair. I simply love tag team wrestling, and see no reason why it can't be Main Event level stuff... and if you push it to the forefront, the teams below have purpose, and can be cultivated upwards, instead of lingering in the midcard waiting to break up.

 

P.S. No Jericho on NXT makes me sad.

[crownsy]

NXT this week was a complete waste for me, as all it consisted of was video packages mixed in between two bland tag matches.

 

only things i took out of it were

 

- could have done a better job with the ending of the main event. i got the message that bryan lost because his partner was out of position, continuing the "good worker being screwed by circumstance" story, but it was so drawn out it looked awkward. for that to work you need the "look for the tag into a flash finish" moment, not try to tag, then turn around, fight for 2 more minutes and get canned.

 

- SES was great again, love the disinterest by punk mixed with the "ah what the hell, lets help him" thing they have going on.

 

- Jennifer hudson's husband can't wrestle, but defiantly has the most "star quality" out of the group of new guys. His finisher is lame though, also kovlov does it much better.

[djthefunkchris]

I'm going slightly off-topic, but...

 

From where I'm sitting, the lack of 'money' in tag teams is a self-fulfilling prophecy. They don't draw because they aren't pushed above midcard status. The aren't pushed above midcard "because they don't draw". I may be missing something, but I don't see why the tag belts can't be Main Event belts for main event guys, other than this pre-conceived notion that being a solo competitor is 'better'. If I were running the shop (or if I could be bothered to download a Real World mod for TEW) the WWE Tag Titles would be main event straps. DX vs The Brothers of Destruction. Show-Miz vs Edge & Christian. Main event level feuds with main event level guys that can main event PPV's just as ably as the singles straps.

 

Personally, this me-me-me, every-man-for-himself mentality of being a singles competitor and going after solo glory sounds selfish. However, teaming up with someone, developing a trust and a friendship, working together towards a common goal... That sounds noble. Glorious. Frankly, those are qualities I'd expect a PG-company like WWE to be promoting to their young audience. The importance of friendship over personal ambition. The need to cultivate relationships over a personal need to 'be the best'.

 

I dunno. Maybe it's an American Superhero/Quarterback thing I just don't get, or maybe it's because I'm a twin and thus naturally see myself as part of a pair. I simply love tag team wrestling, and see no reason why it can't be Main Event level stuff... and if you push it to the forefront, the teams below have purpose, and can be cultivated upwards, instead of lingering in the midcard waiting to break up.

 

P.S. No Jericho on NXT makes me sad.

 

I think Remi has it down pretty good though, to be honest. Alot of the tag teams in the WWE are younger guys, that might have potential, but just aren't all that without the back-up of the tag partner (right now). Cryme time as an example actually made me understand his point more. I don't see either one of them at this point, being able to solo and have the crowd excited for them as they do as a tag team.

 

When they put together tag teams like Jericho/Big Show, bring back DX as a tag team, etc. These are the standard "Super Teams" we have seen WWE use over the years, countless times. Even Batista/Mysterio could be seen in the same light in my point of view. Ussually these are to get the lower tag teams noticed more, and to me anyways, see if anyone stands out. Sometimes they are formed to just get them on the card for the next PPV, and perhaps you have two superteams going against each other (DX vs. Jerishow).

 

I don't really recall the tag belts in the WWE/WWF ever being Main Event titles on the norm, except way, WAY back. Hogan/Savage brought it up, only for it to go back down after their split. It helps build the title up for a bit, and this must happen to keep it from going into the "enhanced talent" area.

[Self]

Sure, that's what tag teams are. I'm just pondering what tag teams could be.

[crownsy]

Sure, that's what tag teams are. I'm just pondering what tag teams could be.

 

I just don't think tag teams are as compeling as singles guys, long term.

 

Unless you are an absolutely phenomenal tag team, i really struggle to care about them long term. Having two guys who have to be in every story/ stay the same alignment to keep a team together long term limits your storytelling alot.

 

Plus, as remy alluded to, such a long term team would need to have two guys who were exactly balanced pop wise with the crowd. otherwise you get a rockers/hardy/Miz & morrision (to name three easy ones) situation where the crowd wants to see one team member far more than the other.

[The Final Countdown]

Plus, as remy alluded to, such a long term team would need to have two guys who were exactly balanced pop wise with the crowd. otherwise you get a rockers/hardy/Miz & morrision (to name three easy ones) situation where the crowd wants to see one team member far more than the other.

Is that really what happened with the Rockers, though? I don't remember Shawn being appreciably more over than Marty at the time of the split. I'm with you on the Hardys and Miz & Morrison, but I don't think the Rockers fit your example, at least as far as I can remember.

[crownsy]

Is that really what happened with the Rockers, though? I don't remember Shawn being appreciably more over than Marty at the time of the split. I'm with you on the Hardys and Miz & Morrison, but I don't think the Rockers fit your example, at least as far as I can remember.

 

I'll defer to your judgment, is was fairly young at the time, so i don't have as clear a recollection of them as the other two example teams.

 

I will say though, the miz has been phenomenal since that split. When they went to different shows, I immediately thought "well, miz had a good run, he's a career midcarder at best without morrision"

 

but his work this year has been excellent, and this may prove to be one of those rare times when BOTH young tag members go on to decent careers.

[Self]

I just don't think tag teams are as compeling as singles guys, long term.

 

Unless you are an absolutely phenomenal tag team, i really struggle to care about them long term.

 

Personal opinion, I can respect that. Different strokes.

 

Having two guys who have to be in every story/ stay the same alignment to keep a team together long term limits your storytelling alot.

 

I wouldn't say 'a lot', but maybe a little. I look at TV shows like Bones and Psych and White Collar and Supernatural, which are as much about the relationship between the core characters as it is about the crime solving and demon killing, and I see plenty of storyline potential, yet unexplored in tag team wrestling. Buddy-cop movies have been popular for years, as popular as one-man-against-the-world flicks (which is better; Die Hard or Lethal Weapon?). In the past, yes, storytelling between tag teams has been less expansive or sophisticated as it's singles counterparts, but just because that's how it is, doesn't mean that's how it always must be.

 

I like wrestling for what it is. I love wrestling for what it can be.

 

Plus, as remy alluded to, such a long term team would need to have two guys who were exactly balanced pop wise with the crowd. otherwise you get a rockers/hardy/Miz & morrision (to name three easy ones) situation where the crowd wants to see one team member far more than the other.

 

I disagree, mainly because I don't think it matters if the crowd like one more than the other, unless taken to extremes. Jeff was always more popular than Matt, but they still had an awesome run and could now headline together at any time. Hell, I'd encourage unbalanced partnerships. If you put John Cena and Kofi Kingston together as a regular tag team and booked them strongly and gave them promo time, it would elevate the latter more than it would hurt the former... as long as being in a team wasn't portrayed as a 'step down' for Cena. Still, no harm in breaking up, as long as it isn't treated as a prerequisite to becoming a 'real star'.

 

The only two downsides I can see are the effort involved in changing fan's perception that tag teams are inferior, and money. It costs more to pay 2 guys than it does to pay 1. I can see a top tag team selling the same amount of merchandise as a top singles star, but I can't see them selling double. So the bottom line could pull the rug out from under my grandiose schemes.

[The Final Countdown]

I'll defer to your judgment, is was fairly young at the time, so i don't have as clear a recollection of them as the other two example teams.

 

I will say though, the miz has been phenomenal since that split. When they went to different shows, I immediately thought "well, miz had a good run, he's a career midcarder at best without morrision"

 

but his work this year has been excellent, and this may prove to be one of those rare times when BOTH young tag members go on to decent careers.

I was pretty young as well, so there may be others who have a better grasp of the situation. But, as far as I can remember, I don't think Shawn was significantly more over than Marty at the time.

 

I'm with you on The Miz. I figured he'd fall by the wayside after he and Morrison split, but I'd say he's done at least as well for himself as Morrison. His developing feud with Bryan Da...err, Daniel Bryan may be the most interesting thing going on right now IMO, beyond HBK/Taker. I could see Miz developing into a legit main event heel within a year or two, which isn't something I ever thought I'd say.

[Remianen]

The only two downsides I can see are the effort involved in changing fan's perception that tag teams are inferior, and money. It costs more to pay 2 guys than it does to pay 1. I can see a top tag team selling the same amount of merchandise as a top singles star, but I can't see them selling double. So the bottom line could pull the rug out from under my grandiose schemes.

 

Also consider the personal aspect.

 

Team3D splits the proceeds of their merch. Why do that if you don't have to? Sure, it's nice to be idealistic and think 'all for one' and such but really, how far do you think Shawn Michaels gets with a Jannetty around his neck? Speaking of which, Final Countdown, the Rockers didn't split because one was appreciably more popular than the other (at the time). They split because one had 'STAR' practically tattooed on his forehead and the other, well, didn't. They were almost exact precursors to the Hardyz. One was practically dripping with charisma and the other....was good in the ring.

 

While I agree with you Self, I also know that humans are strange creatures. Batista was one half of a pretty good tag team (Disciples of Synn? With the heavyset goth chick as manager) when he was known as Leviathan. He didn't do too much lobbying to bring his partner along when they put him with D-Von though. Because you're right, a tag team isn't going to sell double the merch so both members have to settle for half they would as singles workers. Teams are marketed as a unit, after all. Also, your main event tag team idea requires bodies. Main eventers beating midcarders week in and week out, gets really boring. There's only so many times you can pull the 'underdog gets the unlikely win' thing before it gets...what's that word people here use for WWE? Stale.

 

As I said, I agree in principle with what you said. But the facts are the facts. Tag teams don't produce dividends enough (or fast enough) to justify the investment in them. One tag team program would typically involve four workers. Those four workers, as singles, would produce two marketable programs. So the one program has a steep hill to climb (or row to hoe) from the very beginning. Yes, it is about money, on both sides of the equation (promotion and worker).

[shawn michaels]

Also consider the personal aspect.

 

Team3D splits the proceeds of their merch. Why do that if you don't have to? Sure, it's nice to be idealistic and think 'all for one' and such but really, how far do you think Shawn Michaels gets with a Jannetty around his neck? Speaking of which, Final Countdown, the Rockers didn't split because one was appreciably more popular than the other (at the time). They split because one had 'STAR' practically tattooed on his forehead and the other, well, didn't. They were almost exact precursors to the Hardyz. One was practically dripping with charisma and the other....was good in the ring.

 

While I agree with you Self, I also know that humans are strange creatures. Batista was one half of a pretty good tag team (Disciples of Synn? With the heavyset goth chick as manager) when he was known as Leviathan. He didn't do too much lobbying to bring his partner along when they put him with D-Von though. Because you're right, a tag team isn't going to sell double the merch so both members have to settle for half they would as singles workers. Teams are marketed as a unit, after all. Also, your main event tag team idea requires bodies. Main eventers beating midcarders week in and week out, gets really boring. There's only so many times you can pull the 'underdog gets the unlikely win' thing before it gets...what's that word people here use for WWE? Stale.

 

As I said, I agree in principle with what you said. But the facts are the facts. Tag teams don't produce dividends enough (or fast enough) to justify the investment in them. One tag team program would typically involve four workers. Those four workers, as singles, would produce two marketable programs. So the one program has a steep hill to climb (or row to hoe) from the very beginning. Yes, it is about money, on both sides of the equation (promotion and worker).

 

There isn't much to add on this one as remianen said it perfectly. It is about the money, and that makes it impossible to have main event tag teams parading around every week. However, it sin't that hard to see some proper tag division maed of midcards. However, nothing stops them from building a strong midcard tag division headlined by a couple of ME teams. (WIch would rotate in a periodic bases to allow all ME to have their singles action) Nothing stops them...or nothing should...

[Hyde Hill]

There isn't much to add on this one as remianen said it perfectly. It is about the money, and that makes it impossible to have main event tag teams parading around every week. However, it sin't that hard to see some proper tag division maed of midcards. However, nothing stops them from building a strong midcard tag division headlined by a couple of ME teams. (WIch would rotate in a periodic bases to allow all ME to have their singles action) Nothing stops them...or nothing should...

 

To further elaborate on this from a wrestlers standpoint and from a short term promotions standpoint it is better to be singles. But real tag team action be it on a midcard/uppermidcard level is a draw in and of itself.

 

There is nothing wrong with eventually splitting up a tag team if one is more marketable (Rockers) or both are more marketable as individuals then together E & C but at least give them enough time as a team and have a team that can fill their spot so to speak.

 

A strong tag team scene can help elevate those workers till they are read for the big time and a strong tag team scene in and of itself is a draw. If you look at all the highest points of the E and the hight of WCW they all featured a strong tag team scene and it helped draw in fans. More fans means more money for everybody. So from a promoters standpoint and a wrestlers as well thinking more long term a strong tag team scene is very beneficial.

 

So long as you highlight the scene enough time wise and throw in an occasional Main Event combo then both for performers and promoters it can make more money long term.

 

For a long time now tag teams have been either undercard workers or a Man Event combo with nothing in between. The last tag team that actually got time to be a team and get time on tv has been Miz and Morrisson and it did wonders for the both of them. Now imagine if they where together a bit longer and had had some actual competition.

 

Didn't want to go on too long a rant so I hope I made myself clear.

[PeterHilton]

Love this conversation...

 

Just wanted to throw in that, from a cost standpoint, a company is paying two guys to get the same revenue that a really over singles wrestler can give them.

 

Take the Road Warriors for instance: legendary team, proven draw, headlined shows for JCP, AWA, promotions in Japan...but did they draw twice as much as someone like Flair? or Dusty Rhodes?

 

Because they made around as much and you had to pay BOTH Hawk and Animal.

 

From a cost effectiveness stadnpoint, focusing on midcard names and using the tag division to develop younger guys makes more sense (similar reasoning is why manager aren;t around as much).

 

It sucks because we'll probably never see a really great tag divsion again in the WWE. But that money is a big driver.

[jesterx7769]

I think things like MITB and EC have hurt the chances of a tag division as well. Before WWE used to do a lot of three way tags but with those new matches they just plug in more singles workers instead and instead of actual tag teams have been teaming regular workers together for the tag titles

[b0shey]

Former World Heavyweight Champion Bill Goldberg announced on his Twitter account this evening that he's negotiating with WWE regarding a possible return to the company.

 

"YES.. I am in negotiations with the WWE," Goldberg wrote. "Looks like 'ole Hogan and TNA missed the boat. Shame for the fans they didn't even try."

 

While Goldberg has been critical of WWE since his departure from the organization in 2004 and repeatedly said he had no interest in returning to wrestle, he acknowledged a change in heart.

 

Return of Big Bill

[ampulator]

I think people misdiagnose the real reason why they split the Rockers: according to both Shawn Michaels and Marty Jannetty, they were getting into fights with each other all the time backstage. They were barely keeping together.

 

Shawn Michaels and Marty Jannetty were two very different people. Shawn Michaels was a jerk at the time, but he remained more focused and determined than Marty Jannetty. He did his share of party (a lot) but he didn't keep from keeping himself together. Michaels, probably rightfully, felt that Jannetty's lifestyle was going to get him into trouble.

 

Marty Jannetty wasn't a jerk, but he had... drug and alcohol issues. And his look was very outdated, even for the 80's. They tried to push him, but his personal issues just got him in trouble.

 

It makes Jannetty sound like the villain... but he isn't. If he could have kept his stuff together, he wouldn't be let go. It's really sad what happened to Marty Jannetty, because he was actually the better of the two in the beginning in terms of ring skills. I still remember his match against Chris Benoit in WCW and his match against Kurt Angle in WWE. He was really good.

[tristram]

I made the comment in the TNA thread that I thought there was alternate ways for WCW to end the streak and layer his character to add longevity beyond his streak. But, I feel once they didn't do that, Goldberg's character was kind of a fizzer.

 

I suppose at 43 he could still do his routine, but much like I said in TNA, despite being a mad fan of Goldberg's, I saw little place for him in TNA, much as I don't really see a big role for him in WWE. I would though place a lot more money on WWE getting it right, even if it is a second attempt at it, then TNA.

[Slagaholic]

It sounds like it's not going to involve in-ring action, but more using the Goldberg brand and his likeness.

[tristram]

Oh, well that's quite logical then.

[Stennick]

If its just using his likeness then why is he bothering to take a shot at TNA? I mean its not like Goldberg was ever in TNA so what good would it do them to sell Goldberg shirts. They can't make any DVD's and any goldberg shirts of figurines would just confuse the fans and likely make very little cash in return for his asking price.

 

I had heard its a likeness deal as well which makes sense since the WWE can sign him to a legends contract and get figurines, DVD's, shirts maybe another book who knows. If anything just use him to replace some of the talking heads they usually have for DVD's since Flair, Hogan and some others can't be used.

 

Anyway kinda pointless to take a jab at TNA for not signing you when you've stated your not interested in TNA and they would have zero to gain by paying you for your likeness.

[Self]

NXT's rating's down again to a 0.9. Not sure if it actually beat Impact, or if that number's rounded up, but it's still a bummer. Hopefully this decline in ratings doesn't spell the end for my favourite wrestling show. The idea's great, but the execution over the past couple of weeks has faltered I feel. They've taken away the majority of the pro's too soon, and the vagueness of the competition make it hard for folks to get emotionally invested. Hopefully next week's voting will help sort it out a bit.