The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[TheOmniWarrior]

<p>The stuff that Swagged did on Smackdown tonight wasnt half as bad as I expected.</p><p> </p><p>

Id also like to say I hated Kane vs the Rookies of NXT. IMO it made the rookies all seem like heels</p>

[lazorbeak]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> Bryan Danielson's credentials speak for themselves but WWE's audience doesn't think he has star potential (which makes them differ from pretty much every other audience he's performed in front of, worldwide). As I said, a couple cycles of Dianabol descendants (or HGH or norbo) and they'd probably change their tune.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah no unless HGH causes Danielson to grow at least 4 inches of height and gives him a personality, fans don't think he has star power because he <span style="text-decoration:underline;">doesn't look like a star</span>. Yes, he was champion in ROH, but did he get the same attention guys like Samoa Joe or CM Punk received? Did ROH's audience pay to see him wrestle or buy his dvds in the same numbers as those other guys? And now that he's in front of a wider audience his shortcomings in the "star quality" department are pretty hard to miss. I know workrate marks love the guy but seriously it's like saying Dean Malenko could've been world champ if only he had gas-ed up a bit.</p>

[TommyDreamerFan]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TheOmniWarrior" data-cite="TheOmniWarrior" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The stuff that Swagged did on Smackdown tonight wasnt half as bad as I expected.<p> </p><p> Id also like to say I hated Kane vs the Rookies of NXT. IMO it made the rookies all seem like heels</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I haven't seen NXT, but I was surprised to see how plain all the rookies looked.</p><p> </p><p> Daniel Bryan could use some jazzing up, the William Regal look didn't work for Regal why the hell would you think it'd work for you?</p>

[fatallylost]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Yeah no unless HGH causes Danielson to grow at least 4 inches of height and gives him a personality, fans don't think he has star power because he <span style="text-decoration:underline;">doesn't look like a star</span>. Yes, he was champion in ROH, but did he get the same attention guys like Samoa Joe or CM Punk received? Did ROH's audience pay to see him wrestle or buy his dvds in the same numbers as those other guys? And now that he's in front of a wider audience his shortcomings in the "star quality" department are pretty hard to miss. I know workrate marks love the guy but seriously it's like saying Dean Malenko could've been world champ if only he had gas-ed up a bit.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Michael Cole? Is that you?!</p><p> </p><p> It's naive to say he has no personality. I've seen him live, and he's funny as ****. You do get that WWE puts across what it wants, right?</p>

[The Final Countdown]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="fatallylost" data-cite="fatallylost" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Michael Cole? Is that you?!<p> </p><p> It's naive to say he has no personality. I've seen him live, and he's funny as ****. You do get that WWE puts across what it wants, right?</p></div></blockquote><p> Yeah, seriously. He has personality. He knows how to work a crowd There is so much more to Bryan Danielson than just "workrate." Maybe that would be a valid criticism of him in 2002 or 2003, but not now.</p><p> </p><p> As to his drawing power within ROH: I don't really follow attendance figures, and I don't think they release DVD sales figures. But, is he every bit the star (within ROH) as Punk and Joe? Yes. Absolutely, yes. </p><p> </p><p> I don't buy the Dean Malenko comparison, either. Not at all. Dean was a great technical wrestler and I really enjoyed watching his matches, but I don't think he was anywhere near as good at playing to a crowd as Danielson is.</p>

[BurningHamster]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Final Countdown" data-cite="The Final Countdown" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Yeah, seriously. He has personality. He knows how to work a crowd</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I concur. Seriously, that is one thing about NXT that makes me laugh, how they keep claiming Danielson has no personality but that Otunga has the "it" factor ... apparently the "it" factor consists of being married to a D lister, being black and being somewhat jacked up because Otunga got nothing else. Danielson on the other hand seems pretty comfortable in front of a crowd and knows how to work them. I've seen him live and in person and without Michael Cole ranting in your ear he definately has a charisma and can be either intense and serious or goofy and comedic.</p>

[Candyman]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Bryan Danielson's credentials speak for themselves but WWE's audience doesn't think he has star potential (which makes them differ from pretty much every other audience he's performed in front of, worldwide). As I said, a couple cycles of Dianabol descendants (or HGH or norbo) and they'd probably change their tune.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It's far too soon into his WWE career to make that assumption. The audiences seem to be about as much behind him as you could realistically expect at this point. Of couse, that just means he's the biggest fish in the small NXT pond...we'll have to wait and see what happens when he graduates to Raw or SD! and he has to compete with the big boys for crowd attention.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BurningHamster" data-cite="BurningHamster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I concur. Seriously, that is one thing about NXT that makes me laugh, how they keep claiming Danielson has no personality but that Otunga has the "it" factor ... apparently the "it" factor consists of being married to a D lister, being black and being somewhat jacked up because Otunga got nothing else. Danielson on the other hand seems pretty comfortable in front of a crowd and knows how to work them. I've seen him live and in person and without Michael Cole ranting in your ear he definately has a charisma and can be either intense and serious or goofy and comedic.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'm guessing the Michael Cole constant ranting is designed to make people realize Bryan DOES has personality and really get behind him. It seems to be working.</p>

[fatallylost]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Final Countdown" data-cite="The Final Countdown" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Yeah, seriously. He has personality. He knows how to work a crowd There is so much more to Bryan Danielson than just "workrate." Maybe that would be a valid criticism of him in 2002 or 2003, but not now.<p> </p><p> As to his drawing power within ROH: I don't really follow attendance figures, and I don't think they release DVD sales figures. But, is he every bit the star (within ROH) as Punk and Joe? Yes. Absolutely, yes. </p><p> </p><p> I don't buy the Dean Malenko comparison, either. Not at all. Dean was a great technical wrestler and I really enjoyed watching his matches, but I don't think he was anywhere near as good at playing to a crowd as Danielson is.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> To anyone who would debate that, find Danielson v. Kenny Omega from PWG last year.. forget which show, there was only one where they met singly. It was goddamned hilarious!</p><p> </p><p> And that's just one example.</p><p> </p><p> Gotta represent!</p><p> </p><p> <span>http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs161.snc1/6040_1105726527120_1345484160_30250340_7409277_n.jpg</span></p>

[Self]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TheOmniWarrior" data-cite="TheOmniWarrior" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The stuff that Swagged did on Smackdown tonight wasnt half as bad as I expected.<p> </p><p> Id also like to say I hated Kane vs the Rookies of NXT. IMO it made the rookies all seem like heels</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Totally. Great to give them exposure on Smackdown, but they were presented as bad guys. Why would people want to tune in to see 8 bad guys? Well... 7 & Heath Slater.</p><p> </p><p> Once again they had a chance to differentiate the rookies from each other, and failed. Couldn't Daniel Bryan have shown some honour, backing off as soon as the bell rung for the DQ? Couldn't Justin Gabriel have shown some hesitation before hitting the 450? Why did they all have to be immoral quintuple-teaming jackals?</p>

[Hyde Hill]

In TEW terms I think lazor was talking about Star Quality and not charisma/mic/acting which Danielson does have. As far as the 88 percent goes well I think much of the E audience listens to who is the loudest and most established. Who are the two loudest on NXT about Bryan? Miz and Cole and there hasn't been much positive reinforcement of Bryan having character. The only thing I can remember is that Jericho said he was a good worker and the focus on his in ring acumen while continually losing. Still who is to say that if they had him debut just on WWECW and ran the same pole he wouldn't have gotten 100 percent no.

[lazorbeak]

Michael Cole? Is that you?!

 

It's naive to say he has no personality. I've seen him live, and he's funny as ****. You do get that WWE puts across what it wants, right?

 

Is he 6'2 live? Because if not it really doesn't matter. "Being funny" doesn't sell tickets to WWE events in the same way that being 5'10 doesn't sell tickets in the same way that being a great technician doesn't sell tickets. Notice a pattern? Lol at the idea that I must be some kind of WWE mark who is somehow unfamiliar with Danielson's work: I don't even watch NXT. He's a plain little guy who can do some comedy spots and isn't horrible on the mic.

 

Roddy Piper was one of the funniest guys in wrestling history. But he was funny in such a way that he could get himself over as somebody the fans really hated. Danielson's too much of a goof and never did anything in ROH to get the fans to really dislike him, and I don't really see the star power in a cruiserweight babyface who stretches people. There's a spot on the card for guys like that, but it's a spot where there job is to make big slow guys look dangerous.

[MattitudeV2]

Is he 6'2 live? Because if not it really doesn't matter. "Being funny" doesn't sell tickets to WWE events in the same way that being 5'10 doesn't sell tickets in the same way that being a great technician doesn't sell tickets. Notice a pattern? Lol at the idea that I must be some kind of WWE mark who is somehow unfamiliar with Danielson's work: I don't even watch NXT. He's a plain little guy who can do some comedy spots and isn't horrible on the mic.

 

Roddy Piper was one of the funniest guys in wrestling history. But he was funny in such a way that he could get himself over as somebody the fans really hated. Danielson's too much of a goof and never did anything in ROH to get the fans to really dislike him, and I don't really see the star power in a cruiserweight babyface who stretches people. There's a spot on the card for guys like that, but it's a spot where there job is to make big slow guys look dangerous.

 

I'm just pointing this out to you all possiblities lead to Daniel Bryan winning NXT because he more than a cruiserweight, he is technical highflier and a suplex machine. He's a mix of two of his trainers Regal,Michaels yet he has the hardcore brutality of Masato Tanaka and the submission prowess of Chris Benoit.

[Remianen]

Is he 6'2 live? Because if not it really doesn't matter. "Being funny" doesn't sell tickets to WWE events in the same way that being 5'10 doesn't sell tickets in the same way that being a great technician doesn't sell tickets. Notice a pattern? Lol at the idea that I must be some kind of WWE mark who is somehow unfamiliar with Danielson's work: I don't even watch NXT. He's a plain little guy who can do some comedy spots and isn't horrible on the mic.

 

Roddy Piper was one of the funniest guys in wrestling history. But he was funny in such a way that he could get himself over as somebody the fans really hated. Danielson's too much of a goof and never did anything in ROH to get the fans to really dislike him, and I don't really see the star power in a cruiserweight babyface who stretches people. There's a spot on the card for guys like that, but it's a spot where there job is to make big slow guys look dangerous.

 

By that logic, Kurt Angle's not a star either. Neither is Shawn Michaels (who is not 6'1 live). I'm guessing you don't wish to say neither of them sold tickets? As a general rule, with WWE you are correct. But there are exceptions to every rule (I just named two). If he was 5'10 and jacked, they'd list him at 6'0 or 6'1 and it would be a lot easier to get him over.

 

And it doesn't really matter whether you (or I or him or her) sees the star power in Danielson. I didn't see the star power in the wigger gimmick Cena debuted with. Oops?

[Self]

Despite my earlier comments about WWE audiences not accepting technical wrestling, I don't think the fans themselves are particularly biased against technicians, or cruiserweights. It's just how they've been conditioned to think. WWE only push cruiserweights to the midcard because "fans won't accept them any higher", but fans won't truly get behind them because they know WWE will only push them to the midcard. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

I firmly believe that 'push' and 'character' are the most important things with the WWE product. If they pushed Daniel Bryan strong, and put time into developing and showcasing his character, fans would get behind him. Size wouldn't matter. Style wouldn't matter. WWE like to say that young guys need to "step up" and "get themselves over" but that's bull. It's creative's job. That's the main thing I don't like about NXT. They're presenting us with 8 weak, inexperienced, wannabe rookies. They should be presenting 8 brand new, unstoppable, awesome megastars.

[TheOmniWarrior]

Khali being off TV for a while ("going back to India for a while") makes me happy

[Slim Jim]

Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Rey Mysterio, Jeff Hardy, CM Punk... the size point is just silly. With Angle and HBK, who Remi just mentioned, you have a list of guys with a huge range of styles that aren't much bigger (if not smaller) than Bryan, who have all been WWE champions in the last decade.

 

They can change his look if they feel they need to (new hairstyle, or attire, or whatever) but the point remains, if they want to, they can make him a viable championship contender. Sure, he might not be a Hogan, Austin or Cena that they can build the company on but that doesn't mean he can't be a legitimate Main Eventer.

[lazorbeak]

I'm just pointing this out to you all possiblities lead to Daniel Bryan winning NXT because he more than a cruiserweight, he is technical highflier and a suplex machine. He's a mix of two of his trainers Regal,Michaels yet he has the hardcore brutality of Masato Tanaka and the submission prowess of Chris Benoit.

 

Cruiserweight=Weight Class. Danielson weighs less than 200 pounds. Danielson is a cruiserweight.

 

By that logic, Kurt Angle's not a star either. Neither is Shawn Michaels (who is not 6'1 live). I'm guessing you don't wish to say neither of them sold tickets? As a general rule, with WWE you are correct. But there are exceptions to every rule (I just named two). If he was 5'10 and jacked, they'd list him at 6'0 or 6'1 and it would be a lot easier to get him over.

 

Listing some of the greatest workers who by and large were never great draws isn't exactly doing wonders for your argument. I'm not arguing Danielson couldn't be a great worker, and those two are two of the best workers ever. But being a worker (by itself) doesn't sell tickets. There's a reason Kurt Angle, despite being the only gold medalist in the sport and great on the mic and with a character that got over only spent such a small period of time at the top of the card and was never built as a top guy. Michaels was top guy for a period, but it was also the low point in buyrates for the past 20 years. Also Kurt Angle getting juiced didn't exactly do wonders for his career, since it took him out of the spotlight and he's basically just another worker for TNA. So no, those aren't exceptions to what I said (note that neither is 5'10, either).

 

 

Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Rey Mysterio, Jeff Hardy, CM Punk... the size point is just silly. With Angle and HBK, who Remi just mentioned, you have a list of guys with a huge range of styles that aren't much bigger (if not smaller) than Bryan, who have all been WWE champions in the last decade.

 

Jericho I'll give you, but do the next two points really help your argument? Two guys that LITERALLY killed themselves and destroyed their bodies (and their mind in one case) to make up for their lack of size? Rey's been juicing on and off for a few years now and has it made him a more believable champion? This is supposed to prove the size point is "silly"? And again, those guys are/were characters, not just workers who are 'pretty funny' live. Bryan Danielson is not a character. Yes, WWE could give him a gimmick and get him over if they were so inclined, but that's the different between a gimmick and a character. CM Punk already had a character when he was brought in so any gimmick he's gotten over the past 5 years has basically just been variations of the character CM Punk. Beyond which Punk is over 6 feet tall even though he's pretty stocky, so I'm not sure what bringing him up accomplishes, other than showing that being 6'1 means you get to the top much faster than being 5'10 (just ask Chris Jericho). Seriously look at the top of the card: Chris Jericho (billed) 6', Cena, 6'1, Orton, 6'4, Edge, 6'5, Batista, 6'6, Undertaker 6'10. Gee, it's almost like to be a main eventer in WWE you have to be either one of the most charismatic performers in the sport or over 6 feet tall. Don't I feel silly?

 

Seriously I don't see why smarks are so bound and determined to ignore the fact that guys under 6 feet tall are generally not taken to be a serious threat in a medium that is so focused on visuals and the perception that somebody could kick ass. If you stood me next to Bryan Danielson, the average mark would guess I must be the professional wrestler, and that is a problem. Not an insurmountable one, but it makes it an uphill struggle for Danielson to ever be anything but a guy that puts guys that look like stars over.

[TommyDreamerFan]

I'm from the train of thought that any wrestler that is halfway decent (and by that I mean, is trained and can do moves without anybody getting injured), that is willing to do whatever the writer wants can become a maineventer on writing alone.

 

Of course, I also say theres no such thing as bad gimmicks just bad writing. In theory what makes 1990's Zombie Taker a better gimmick then Repoman? Both were overly gimmicky. One was just written better.

[Hyde Hill]

Just a small note that Kurt Angle is not the only Olympic gold medalist to wrestle. Anton Gesink won gold in Judo and wrestled in Japan, Angle is the only one with a gold medal in wrestling though and is a lot more recent.

 

On Danielson, both sides are right imho. He has tools which could help him succeed and he has characteristics that impede him. Its highly unlikely that he will be a top main eventer but an uppermidcard occasional main eventer could/should be attainable. And yes writing/booking will play a big part in that.

[The Final Countdown]

On Danielson, both sides are right imho. He has tools which could help him succeed and he has characteristics that impede him. Its highly unlikely that he will be a top main eventer but an uppermidcard occasional main eventer could/should be attainable. And yes writing/booking will play a big part in that.

So, CM Punk level, basically? If so, yeah, I could see Danielson reaching that level, though he doesn't have the natural charisma and microphone skills of Punk (but how many do, really?)

[Tag01]

So, CM Punk level, basically? If so, yeah, I could see Danielson reaching that level, though he doesn't have the natural charisma and microphone skills of Punk (but how many do, really?)

 

He'll get his shot, but he's not going to stick. He just doesn't have the charisma. I love his matches, but that's pretty much all he's got. I don't see him being a big star in the E.

[fatallylost]

Wow.. just, wow. I was gonna quote a few things, but, lazor obviously won't get it.

 

Apparently, not liking the WWE version of Danielson is like politics and religion to him.

 

He'll get his shot, but he's not going to stick. He just doesn't have the charisma. I love his matches, but that's pretty much all he's got. I don't see him being a big star in the E.

 

You've never seen Daniel Bryan do anything, other than the 2-3 promos, and his matches.

 

Daniel Bryan is NOT Bryan Danielson. He is the character.

[The Shape]

WWE clearly WANT him to be a star. Polls like the one mentioned are probably fixed, lol. Surprised they had the pros "vote" for him tbh. But still, so long as WWE don't give up, and given the way they've pushed him so far, I think it'd take a while, then he'll be ok.

[lazorbeak]

Wow.. just, wow. I was gonna quote a few things, but, lazor obviously won't get it.

 

Apparently, not liking the WWE version of Danielson is like politics and religion to him.

 

Again, I don't watch WWE version of Danielson, and no, I'm not passionate about it one way or another, but if you're going to argue, things like "evidence" and "precedent" are useful tools in outlining your position.

 

Anyone that doesn't get that Danielson's lack of a real character combined with his lack of size is going to produce a significant roadblock to him being anything other than a midcarder who can put on good matches are the people that need to "get it."

[Slim Jim]

Jericho I'll give you, but do the next two points really help your argument? Two guys that LITERALLY killed themselves and destroyed their bodies (and their mind in one case) to make up for their lack of size?

 

Given that the argument was whether or not he could be a star/Main Eventer/etc., yeah, they do help that argument. They weren't that big, yet were still credible champions, and Eddie and Benoit shared one of the best Wrestlemania moments ever to boot.

 

Rey's been juicing on and off for a few years now and has it made him a more believable champion?

 

Might not be believable as a champion in a lot of people's eyes but he is very over and has been even moreso. He pulls in some of the highest merchandise sales on the roster. So again, a smaller guy being a proper star.

 

And again, those guys are/were characters, not just workers who are 'pretty funny' live. Bryan Danielson is not a character. Yes, WWE could give him a gimmick and get him over if they were so inclined, but that's the different between a gimmick and a character. CM Punk already had a character when he was brought in so any gimmick he's gotten over the past 5 years has basically just been variations of the character CM Punk.

 

Benoit didn't really have a character beyond being incredible in the ring. And it usually takes a while for someone to settle into a gimmick/character that fits. You can look at pretty much anyone of any size, and they'll have gone through a few tries that didn't work to greater or lesser degree before striking something. IF he finds that character that just clicks, he has the in-ring skill to back it up.

 

Beyond which Punk is over 6 feet tall even though he's pretty stocky, so I'm not sure what bringing him up accomplishes, other than showing that being 6'1 means you get to the top much faster than being 5'10 (just ask Chris Jericho).

 

He's billed at 6'1. He doesn't look much over 6'0, if he even is, and he's an example of someone that definitely doesn't have "the look", in terms of the stereotypical WWE Main Eventer. And sure, ask Jericho, the six time World Champion. He was made to be a big deal in WWF right from the start. Alright, he slipped down for a little while because they only had one title and a shedload of established stars that had to be kept happy, but it only took a couple of years to beat the two biggest names in the company in one night. Not having success in WCW was not because of his size; it's because of who he was, or more accurately who he wasn't.

 

Seriously look at the top of the card: Chris Jericho (billed) 6', Cena, 6'1, Orton, 6'4, Edge, 6'5, Batista, 6'6, Undertaker 6'10. Gee, it's almost like to be a main eventer in WWE you have to be either one of the most charismatic performers in the sport or over 6 feet tall. Don't I feel silly?

 

I didn't say WWE don't prefer bigger guys. Of course they do, that's plain to see. But you don't HAVE to be over 6'0, or built like a Greek god to ascend to the top of the card there. And when Jericho wrestled Bryan on NXT, he was barely two inches taller despite wearing huge lifts in his boots. Give Bryan those some lifts, he'd be at least as tall.

 

Seriously I don't see why smarks are so bound and determined to ignore the fact that guys under 6 feet tall are generally not taken to be a serious threat in a medium that is so focused on visuals and the perception that somebody could kick ass. If you stood me next to Bryan Danielson, the average mark would guess I must be the professional wrestler, and that is a problem. Not an insurmountable one, but it makes it an uphill struggle for Danielson to ever be anything but a guy that puts guys that look like stars over.

 

1) Definitely not a smark. I can't sit through an ROH show. I need the WWE storyline factor, and if I'm rewatching a show on youtube, I often fast forward the matches. I'm also a huge sucker for production values

 

2) If WWE want to make him a star, they can make him a star, provided there are no horrific botches along the road. He isn't the complete package, 100% guaranteed to be a star, but he's got in ring skill in abundance and good enough everything else to be at the top of the card. Is he going to step up and fill the gap left by HBK? Almost certainly not. Doesn't mean he won't end up as a World Champ.