The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[PeterHilton]

Well Peter you are ignoring the kind of cyclical effect that the WWE/F's dominance has had over the long amount of years as to what "wrestling" fans want as what the E gives is perceived as to be what wrestling is and vice versa. The only time they did a true change in formula and product was when they where realistically challenged.

 

Chicken and the egg. Do wrestling fans expect it because the WWE is popular? Or is the WWE popular because they give fans what they want/expect?

 

But I see what you mean.

 

I also do not think that the most on these boards want or expect the WWE to become a niche entertainment product like let's say Firefly, but would like it to be more like say X-Files or at least Friends and not the Power Rangers Power Hour.

 

Fair enough. But you may want to check and see how long those other shows ran as compared to how long Power Rangers was on tv.

[Hyde Hill]

Chicken and the egg. Do wrestling fans expect it because the WWE is popular? Or is the WWE popular because they give fans what they want/expect?

 

But I see what you mean.

 

 

 

Fair enough. But you may want to check and see how long those other shows ran as compared to how long Power Rangers was on tv.

 

Both as with what I meant with Cyclical.

 

X - Files 9 seasons. Friends 10 seasons. Both very long for a mainstream prime time show. And yeah the Rangers have 17 but not nearly the ratings etc.

[Stennick]

Not near the ratings but pro wrestling in this day and age only works for television. Its not like there has been any real ratings drop since the PG stuff officially set in. If I'm in business I'll take being on the air for 17 years at a 3.0 over being on air for 9 seasons at a 6.0.

[The Final Countdown]

Not near the ratings but pro wrestling in this day and age only works for television. Its not like there has been any real ratings drop since the PG stuff officially set in. If I'm in business I'll take being on the air for 17 years at a 3.0 over being on air for 9 seasons at a 6.0.

I think this is an apples & oranges comparison. It's not like Friends couldn't have kept going. The actors simply decided they'd been doing it long enough, so the show ended. Their "product" never stopped drawing in the viewers.

[alden]

riley vs kaval was actuly a good match. I don't think it hurt kaval not winning......i am happy they are still allowing him to use the warriors way as a finisher though.

[pat21532]

This is the 1st time i've watched nxt and really enjoyed the 1st match

[Linsolv]

Chicken and the egg. Do wrestling fans expect it because the WWE is popular? Or is the WWE popular because they give fans what they want/expect?

 

But I see what you mean.

 

Again, though, we've got the kayfabe problem I brought up earlier.

 

The reason -- or, at least one big reason -- that the kids are the big merch draws is, kids haven't figured out to be ashamed of their wrestling fandom.

 

Given the ratings that RAW is pulling, if people were buying WWE shirts as often as they do basketball jerseys, I'd have seen more that 5-10 WWE-shirt-wearing folks in my lifetime. Instead, I've seen about 3 at the library, 1 came into work the other day with an 80s DX shirt, and there was 1 kid who I knew in high school who spent most of the time talking to himself.

 

Simple fact is, people don't want to publicize the fact that they're watching a "fake" sport.

[PeterHilton]

Again, though, we've got the kayfabe problem I brought up earlier.

 

The reason -- or, at least one big reason -- that the kids are the big merch draws is, kids haven't figured out to be ashamed of their wrestling fandom.

 

Given the ratings that RAW is pulling, if people were buying WWE shirts as often as they do basketball jerseys, I'd have seen more that 5-10 WWE-shirt-wearing folks in my lifetime. Instead, I've seen about 3 at the library, 1 came into work the other day with an 80s DX shirt, and there was 1 kid who I knew in high school who spent most of the time talking to himself.

 

Simple fact is, people don't want to publicize the fact that they're watching a "fake" sport.

 

I guess. But again...do you REALLY think kayfabe is possible in today's day and age? With the advent of internet reporting and the popularity of REAL combat sports companies like UFC?

 

Kayfabe is a pipe dream.

[Slagaholic]

Kayfabe still matters to children.

[Linsolv]

Firstly, you'd have to deal with the "leak" problem. The easiest way to do this is have the "leak" be the booker, and have him tell whatever he wants to tell.

 

Secondly, you'd need to be more subtle. To give an entirely un-subtle genre that hits where I'm referring to, look at actual soap operas. My sister used to watch Days of our Lives. After 6 weeks of watching every day, I knew every character, their motivation, what made them 'different,' and so on. As people, I thought they were petty and stupid, but as characters, they weren't "all the same," even though their 'gimmick' was always something along the lines of 'conniving [insert gender-appropriate insult].'

 

Wrestling can have a little more variety than that, but I think we go too far sometimes into gimmick territory. Like, take Grizzly Redwood (the most noticeable example IMO) -- his gimmick is that he's a lumberjack. His appearance is that of a lumberjack. His character? Lumberjack. A "lumberjack" gimmick in my kayfabe-enhanced world would be a wrestler who just used to be a lumberjack once.

 

Then, you take those more subtle gimmicks, and you stop referring to them as stupid **** like "superstars," and start referring to them as "fighters." Cover the show as if it were an ESPN post-game, showing "press releases" instead of promos, and showing replayed matches.

 

That's how I would cover it. As for the actual live shows... then you treat it as just a straight sporting event, like DREAM or the UFC. Although I don't really watch UFC so I'm only guessing that it's comparable to DREAM events.

[Remianen]

It makes perfectly good sense that her campaign manager would believe that others would use it against her. But if he's good at his job shouldn't be able to fight off the fire from her opponents if they tried using that against her?

 

Absolutely not. Are you kidding? There are a few things that can make a campaign manager look better than they actually are and all of those things reside with the candidate. Looks, charisma, eloquence (see: Clinton, William Jefferson; Powell Jr, Adam Clayton), innate power (D'Amato, Alphonse); universal respect and admiration (Moynihan, Daniel Patrick); local celebrity due to tragedy (McCarthy, Carolyn); or immense personal wealth (Bloomberg, Michael).

 

Linda McMahon is not a particularly attractive woman (handsome, yes. Conventionally attractive, no.), she has yet to exhibit any kind of charisma or magnetism and she's not 'good on the mic' (read: eloquent). She has no innate power (not even within the Republican party) or universal respect or admiration, no local tragedy that made her "famous" and she doesn't have immense personal wealth (the best example of this is Michael Bloomberg).

 

This part of the country doesn't work like others. If you're the leading candidate of the party opposing arguably the most unpopular Senator in the state's long history, polls should make you a slam dunk. Linda can't even get the party's conservatives on board (largely due to the business she's in). So no matter how good her campaign manager is, he's going to have to do everything in his power to make her appear as pure as the driven snow. Whether people know it or not, there are conservatives in Connecticut who are campaigning behind the scenes to derail her candidacy and ensure she doesn't get the nomination in August. So David's fighting a war on multiple fronts when even the party that's supposed to be behind you is sniping at the candidate at every turn.

 

Welcome to American politics.

 

 

Yes, yes...only the intellectual giants that comprise the IWC can truly appreciate what great wrestling really is.

 

No offense to you Peter but every unabashed WWE fan I know is, well, a moron. That's typically what blind devotion makes you. It would be like me saying Angelina Love is an excellent wrestler or that the Knockouts match should main event the next PPV. Uh, no, that would be freakin' stupid. I have two clients who are going to SummerSlam this year....for their annual vacation. That four day weekend is going to cost them more than a week in Maui (or the Canary Islands or Jamaica and only slightly less than Corsica or Mykonos) would. Show of hands, how many would use their once a year vacation, to go to a WWE PPV? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Realize, these aren't people who can travel very much (unless it involves driving) so doing this means nothing else for the rest of the year (perhaps even until next year's income tax refund). And the excuse can't be used that they've never seen a WWE event live before. They were the ones I brought with me to Wrestlemania XX.

 

Defining comment from one of them that basically caused me to dismiss their opinion in this area altogether. When Hogan & Bischoff took over TNA: "Maybe now they'll do more stuff outside the ring cuz their people sure can't wrestle." "Yeah, you know they have to be lame when their champion steals the finisher from a DIVA." Now, I have my own beefs with TNA but that....that basically ended all conversation on wrestling. I won't even broach the subject with them anymore (besides the multitude of times they text or email me asking me for TEW tips. Apparently I was wrong, running SWF isn't idiotproof).

 

Gotta love that a Email sent from a freaking hotmail address is being used as legitimate news.

 

I think tonight, I'll write an email saying "to whom it may concern" and make it a mattel VP who is to scared to send it from a legit email source. I'm sure i can get that onto a least a few of the Wrestling rumor sites.

 

crownsy, are you familiar with confidentiality agreements? Or corporate information security? How willing would you be to lose your job specifically for leaking confidential or privileged information that might be evidence of corruption (real or perceived)? In fact, you cannot have the 'whistleblower' without initial anonymity. You think people at Enron were sending emails to the feds from work? The fact that the info came from an anonymous source doesn't automatically make it untrue. Watch Linda McMahon's campaign to see what happens should this be picked up by actual news organizations (or conservative think tanks looking to undermine or discredit Linda's candidacy). In my view, you take the info with a grain of salt until the 'equal and opposite reaction' occurs. Besides, that note surprises no one even vaguely familiar with American politics. Mike Bloomberg still has direct input into the running of his company, despite having had to "resign" from it in order to be mayor without perceived conflicts of interest. So why would it be so hard to believe Linda (and her top political advisors) would have direct control over the company she co-owns? I bet Vince wants Linda to be Senator as much as she does (if not moreso) since it would give him inroads politically.

 

Sorry if this is common knowledge but your incredulity kinda made me wonder whether it was or not. Believe me, I was an extremely active YRC member at one time (not to mention the godson of a sitting Congressman, sadly of the opposite party, who is now a committee chair) and worked on several campaigns locally. That doesn't even register as a 'bad thing'. Imagine the chairman of the Senate banking committee pulling strings to get an opponent's house foreclosed on so he could point out how the candidate was 'awful with his personal finances so how is he going to be any different for New York's financial wellbeing?'. Seriously, if Linda has cheated on Vince at any time at all in their relationship, it'll come to light between August and November. The attack ads are going to be EPIC (especially if she wins the nomination and goes up against Blumenthal). WWE better go to a TV-G rating or else anything and everything they do is going to find its way into an ad of some kind.

[Linsolv]

This part of the country doesn't work like others. If you're the leading candidate of the party opposing arguably the most unpopular Senator in the state's long history, polls should make you a slam dunk. Linda can't even get the party's conservatives on board (largely due to the business she's in). So no matter how good her campaign manager is, he's going to have to do everything in his power to make her appear as pure as the driven snow. Whether people know it or not, there are conservatives in Connecticut who are campaigning behind the scenes to derail her candidacy and ensure she doesn't get the nomination in August. So David's fighting a war on multiple fronts when even the party that's supposed to be behind you is sniping at the candidate at every turn.

 

I'm not a Connecticutter or whatever they're called (sorry if that comes off as brusque) but I thought that Blumenthal was considered to be very well liked by his constituency. But then again, that only makes it worse.

[Stennick]

I think this is an apples & oranges comparison. It's not like Friends couldn't have kept going. The actors simply decided they'd been doing it long enough, so the show ended. Their "product" never stopped drawing in the viewers.

 

Sure it could have gone on for a while more no doubt. The point is its been proven time and time again that a show like Power Rangers is going to be on the air three times as long as a show geared towards adults.

 

Point is Friends could not stay on the air for 17 years. Even if you stay on the air for ten don't you want to stay on the air for 20 business wise?

 

A lot of time people look at television shows and other forms of entertainment as art. They complain when their favorite show takes an interesting turn or when their favorite movie makes a sequel thats clearly set out to sell toys. Its business and its making money and if I want to make money I'm trying to stay on the air for as long as possible.

 

Its been talked about to death. Those rebellious 90's kids grew up, got out of college and high school and started families. Its time to market to our kids and our younger brothers.

[PeterHilton]

Firstly, you'd have to deal with the "leak" problem. The easiest way to do this is have the "leak" be the booker, and have him tell whatever he wants to tell.

 

Secondly, you'd need to be more subtle. To give an entirely un-subtle genre that hits where I'm referring to, look at actual soap operas. My sister used to watch Days of our Lives. After 6 weeks of watching every day, I knew every character, their motivation, what made them 'different,' and so on. As people, I thought they were petty and stupid, but as characters, they weren't "all the same," even though their 'gimmick' was always something along the lines of 'conniving [insert gender-appropriate insult].'

 

Wrestling can have a little more variety than that, but I think we go too far sometimes into gimmick territory. Like, take Grizzly Redwood (the most noticeable example IMO) -- his gimmick is that he's a lumberjack. His appearance is that of a lumberjack. His character? Lumberjack. A "lumberjack" gimmick in my kayfabe-enhanced world would be a wrestler who just used to be a lumberjack once.

 

Then, you take those more subtle gimmicks, and you stop referring to them as stupid **** like "superstars," and start referring to them as "fighters." Cover the show as if it were an ESPN post-game, showing "press releases" instead of promos, and showing replayed matches.

 

That's how I would cover it. As for the actual live shows... then you treat it as just a straight sporting event, like DREAM or the UFC. Although I don't really watch UFC so I'm only guessing that it's comparable to DREAM events.

 

i don't honestly get what you're saying. Re-create kayfabe so that the WWE will grow in popularity with older fans? What makes you think that would be more profitable than what they draw now?

 

You still haven't taken into account other companies who ARE legit and how they'd be competing directly with the the WWE. Their presentation would seem even more phony because of how close they're trying to be to what the legit companies would do.

 

Why would i watch fake fighting with semi-realistic characters and large personalities when I can watch REAL fighting with REAl characters and big personalities?

 

Your whole premise turns the E into a copycat poser league with no real reason to believe you'd be any more popular than what they do now.

 

I just don't buy it. Sorry.

[Stennick]

Firstly, you'd have to deal with the "leak" problem. The easiest way to do this is have the "leak" be the booker, and have him tell whatever he wants to tell.

 

LOL, you can't just "deal" with a leak problem and make sure the guy leaking the info is a certain person. Vince has tapped phone lines and bugged computers trying to catch leaks and still they get through. The reason something is a leak is because it can't be caught. Thats like saying make sure the people that leak music are the people in charge. How exactly do you think it gets leaked? Some body in the know leaks it to someone else and it travels down hill from there. You can't just "make the leak" somebody thats kind of a silly statement.

 

 

Then, you take those more subtle gimmicks, and you stop referring to them as stupid **** like "superstars," and start referring to them as "fighters." Cover the show as if it were an ESPN post-game, showing "press releases" instead of promos, and showing replayed matches.

 

That's how I would cover it. As for the actual live shows... then you treat it as just a straight sporting event, like DREAM or the UFC. Although I don't really watch UFC so I'm only guessing that it's comparable to DREAM events.

 

Have you heard of ROH? How many fans do they draw? Aside from pay per view draws Vince craps all over UFC t.v ratings. That may be more interesting to you but how many 6 year old kids watch MLB? and the NFL? Or even UFC? The answer not that many. Wrestling isn't a sport and I don't want it to be treated like one. 1980's NWA is as close as I want to something being a sport.

 

Thats an interesting idea for a niche promotion but in 2010 its just not going to work. People want to see a television show not a fight. Why would I pay to see a fake fight? Why wouldn't I pay to watch the UFC instead? I'm paying for the story, I'm paying for the fight to be the culmination of the story not for the fight to be the story.

[LoganRodzen]

I can't say that I've followed any of her campaign or have any knowledge of how CT politics work, but I do have family there and I highly doubt any of them will be voting for her. I'm just curious what her REAL motives are for running in the first place.

[Comradebot]

i don't honestly get what you're saying. Re-create kayfabe so that the WWE will grow in popularity with older fans? What makes you think that would be more profitable than what they draw now?

 

You still haven't taken into account other companies who ARE legit and how they'd be competing directly with the the WWE. Their presentation would seem even more phony because of how close they're trying to be to what the legit companies would do.

 

Why would i watch fake fighting with semi-realistic characters and large personalities when I can watch REAL fighting with REAl characters and big personalities?

 

Your whole premise turns the E into a copycat poser league with no real reason to believe you'd be any more popular than what they do now.

 

I just don't buy it. Sorry.

 

I think I'm with you on this one. Why one Earth would the WWE work towards being more like MMA? If anything, they should work towards being different from MMA and that by doing so they can be entertaining in their own right. In the end, wrestling can be about as close to live action super heroes as we can ever hope to see, and they should play it up. Screw trying to be more "realistic". It's scripted, so there's only so much you can do before people are all "well, if I want to see real combat I'll turn on UFC and watch REAL combat".

 

But do you know what MMA can't offer (at least not reliably)? Exciting storylines, larger than life characters, or even great matches (after all, how many super hyped matches in MMA have ended in 30 seconds or turned into actionless borefests that end by decision?). WWE should offer their own, unique product, NOT something that could ever be viewed as attempting to "compete" with an actual sport.

[Astil]

I'm not a Connecticutter or whatever they're called (sorry if that comes off as brusque) but I thought that Blumenthal was considered to be very well liked by his constituency. But then again, that only makes it worse.

 

He lied about being in Vietnam or something similar so he's in jeapordy right now. It'll probably wash over, but theres a cloud of distrust.

[dvdWarrior]

Oddly enough, Danielson being fired over all this political stuff would be just the thing to lose my vote - not that I vote or anything...

 

I'm very much in the George Carlin camp when it comes to political things...

 

 

Just saying, if I did vote, firing Danielson to protect your campaign might be enough to get me to vote for the other guy.

 

[The Final Countdown]

Have you heard of ROH? How many fans do they draw?

More than they'd draw if they tried to emulate the WWE's style, I'd wager.

 

But yeah, what the E is doing seems to be working, so good for them. Personally, I don't have a problem with the elimination of more "adult" things, like blood. It also means no more terrible stuff like the Katie Vick debacle, Mark Henry making out with a transvestite, and the Kiss-My-Ass club, so that's a plus. I just wish they'd stop doing so much lame "comedy." The mid-90's WWF was supremely cartoony, but I don't remember them doing anywhere near as many stupid skits.

[Teh_Showtime]

More than they'd draw if they tried to emulate the WWE's style, I'd wager.

 

But yeah, what the E is doing seems to be working, so good for them. Personally, I don't have a problem with the elimination of more "adult" things, like blood. It also means no more terrible stuff like the Katie Vick debacle, Mark Henry making out with a transvestite, and the Kiss-My-Ass club, so that's a plus. I just wish they'd stop doing so much lame "comedy." The mid-90's WWF was supremely cartoony, but I don't remember them doing anywhere near as many stupid skits.

 

this

 

now segments are just plain pointless and boring (on raw at least)

 

thats why Im a SD follower, and ROH watcher

[Self]

I'm pretty much with Peter Hilton on all of this. Internet Wrestling Fans tend to think that being 'smart' to the business makes them better than the meat & potato WWE fan, but they aren't. They're different. No better. No worse. I'm sure WWE can improve in many areas, but so many folks around the IWC mistake opinion and personal preference for 'good for business'. Some folks don't like the PG thing. That's cool. Not my cup of tea either. That doesn't mean PG is bad. I'm sure it's making them a lot of money.

 

Seems the whole NXT/Bryan thing might have helped in the ratings department as they got a 3.4

 

NXT thing? Yes.

 

Bryan? How many people really knew? The internet was abuzz (to the point where I'm beginning to get sick of the guy) but I wouldn't expect the controversy to have affected ratings in a big way. Hell, it made me not watch RAW.

 

I think I'm with you on this one. Why one Earth would the WWE work towards being more like MMA? If anything, they should work towards being different from MMA and that by doing so they can be entertaining in their own right. In the end, wrestling can be about as close to live action super heroes as we can ever hope to see, and they should play it up. Screw trying to be more "realistic". It's scripted, so there's only so much you can do before people are all "well, if I want to see real combat I'll turn on UFC and watch REAL combat".

 

But do you know what MMA can't offer (at least not reliably)? Exciting storylines, larger than life characters, or even great matches (after all, how many super hyped matches in MMA have ended in 30 seconds or turned into actionless borefests that end by decision?). WWE should offer their own, unique product, NOT something that could ever be viewed as attempting to "compete" with an actual sport.

 

I agree, but I'll take the excuse to shoot off on a tangent.

 

There's a lot wrestling can learn from MMA. Ironically it's a lot of what MMA already learned from pro-wrestling. Specifically the focus of personalities and characters. WWE have the wacky promos and the wacky stories, and that's fine, don't change that, but often-times they seem to be missing heart. UFC on the other hand, with their countdown specials, do a phenomenal job working with what they have to tell you who those fighters are and why you should cheer/boo them.

 

I personally would like to see WWE rediscover this. Not to copy UFC completely, but to find out what makes this element work and work towards the same goal. Take time and effort and focus on a character, and tell the audience his story. Who is he? What brought him to the dance? What is he fighting for? WWE actually has the advantage over UFC here because they're fake. They can make up their own story to be bettter than real life, which can be pretty dull. This is something NXT almost gets right. The Alex Riley video package from last week was chock-full of juicy content. Same with David Otunga's. Sadly, I find the rest of the show is pretty shallow.

 

I'm watching Legend of the Seeker right now. It's my kind of show in that it's got swordfights and it's fantasy, so I can forgive some of the worse elements. Why do I bring it up? Because similar to wrestling they've got a bunch of characters who run around, getting into fights and doing wacky things. They feud. They argue. Characters do wacky things. Some entertain me. Some don't. However, every so often they do a flashback episode that delves into someone's backstory. Yesterday I saw an episode that took a character I really didn't like, and gave me insight into his past. They showed me what brought him to the dance, and now I like him more.

 

Zack Ryder. I like him. The whole "Woo Woo Woo" thing. The Jersey Shore stuff. I find it entertaining... but where's the meat? Where's the backstory? It's wafer thin, so how can I really get behind him? Kofi Kingston? He's got a few wacky moves and is from Ghana. Is there more to it? Can we explore that in some way? I'd LOVE to see a UFC Countdown special on these guys, or something of a similar nature. Zack Ryder 'training' with his guido friends in Long Island? Awesome.

 

Wrestling is about superheroes. Sure. That should never change. However, the best Superheroes have heart. They have backstories and personal struggles we can relate to, and time has been taken to tell these stories. WWE have 5 hours of weekly TV. Surely they can do the same.

 

Just my opinion.

[Hyde Hill]

If you like that stuff watch the before the bell packages TNA does they are somewhat similar and pretty good.

[Self]

If you like that stuff watch the before the bell packages TNA does they are somewhat similar and pretty good.

 

I vaguely remember a little James Storm package they did a long time ago. It went into his private life a little, where he talked about loving wrestling and his dog. I thought it was pretty cool, if a little 'inside' and contradictory to his on-screen character. He came off as a down-to-earth babyface, while he was playing a drunken cowboy heel at the time. I kinda dug it.

 

P.S. Stop trying to trick me into watching TNA. I may be sick of WWE right now, and I may have actually watched a Wrestlicious match last night, but I'm not so desperate for wrestling as to watch Impact. Not yet.

[Linsolv]

LOL, you can't just "deal" with a leak problem and make sure the guy leaking the info is a certain person. Vince has tapped phone lines and bugged computers trying to catch leaks and still they get through. The reason something is a leak is because it can't be caught. Thats like saying make sure the people that leak music are the people in charge. How exactly do you think it gets leaked? Some body in the know leaks it to someone else and it travels down hill from there. You can't just "make the leak" somebody thats kind of a silly statement.

 

Dealing with a leak problem is indeed easier said than done. But it's the biggest problem you'd have if you tried to play a straight "We're really wrestling for real" show.

 

However, "making someone the leak" is easy peasy. You just send out emails to people saying whatever you wanted to say, but not through official channels.

 

The same way you get REAL leaks.

 

Have you heard of ROH? How many fans do they draw? Aside from pay per view draws Vince craps all over UFC t.v ratings. That may be more interesting to you but how many 6 year old kids watch MLB? and the NFL? Or even UFC? The answer not that many. Wrestling isn't a sport and I don't want it to be treated like one. 1980's NWA is as close as I want to something being a sport.

 

You keep saying "fake fight." That's what I'm talking about. You want me to sit here and argue the point that a wrestling promotion in which people genuinely believed they were real fights, while at the same time insisting that I think of them as fake fights? That's ludicrous.

 

As for storyline, it's not hard to get a solid drama going. Like Self mentioned, you can go into the characters. You can script an honest to gosh rivalry, which can get personal and bitter. Then some third party steps into the argument, declares [something], and you've got yourself a party. Or you could have someone cut a promo on a match we just saw, after the fact (since he's another fighter of notoriety) and remark negatively or positively, forming friendships or rivalries once again.

 

Heck, you could even to honest shoot fights from time to time, or even most of the time for lower-card matches. You'd probably find that those would be far from the favorite, though, since scripted matches can have a lot more bells-and-whistles.

 

Then, once in a rare while -- once every couple years -- you can have some serious poo poo go down. Maybe you have a fight spill out into the crowd and get all hardcore and ****. You can have someone get mad and punch out the other guy's "agent" [manager].