The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[sheepy]

So here's a question I hope doesn't get skimmed over. Its 2011, Raw has had virtually the same set (jumptron, ramp, opening promo, ring set up, for the last 15 years or so.

 

How would you freshen up RAW. From the way its presented to the way its formatted. I'm not asking for storylines just things like "I'd like to see this style of wrestling more" or "I'd like to see this style promo" or "I'd like a new set that looks like". Although I'm sure even this will be met with "RAW looks just fine the way it is even though it hasn't barely changed it all in a decade in a half".

 

1) First thing I'd love to see is a proper brand split in the way it was first done. Rival GMs trying to poach other stars (none of these drafts). Inter brand rivalry and most importantly, Smackdown home of wrestling. Raw home of entertainment. Both need to be treated as A shows.

 

2) Stop only pushing dull, generic types. Raw lacks colour (think Goldust, The Hurricane etc) - it's a lesser show because of this.

[sabataged]

Sab I do miss you man. I remember a time about two years back before there were so many reasonable people in the Dog Pound. I remember a time when we were the lone voices of the voiceless in this place. I'm happy to report a slew of people now that seem to have logic induced thinking.

 

Lazorbeak I left you off the list but although you may not always agree with and be agreed with you certainly have logic based thinking and I agree with your post one hundred percent.

 

I think we've exhausted the "Vince screwed up again" discussion and the "this is the new attitude era" discussion.

 

So here's a question I hope doesn't get skimmed over. Its 2011, Raw has had virtually the same set (jumptron, ramp, opening promo, ring set up, for the last 15 years or so.

 

How would you freshen up RAW. From the way its presented to the way its formatted. I'm not asking for storylines just things like "I'd like to see this style of wrestling more" or "I'd like to see this style promo" or "I'd like a new set that looks like". Although I'm sure even this will be met with "RAW looks just fine the way it is even though it hasn't barely changed it all in a decade in a half".

 

Personally I think RAW looks just fine the way it is

[Astil]

Sab I do miss you man. I remember a time about two years back before there were so many reasonable people in the Dog Pound. I remember a time when we were the lone voices of the voiceless in this place. I'm happy to report a slew of people now that seem to have logic induced thinking.

 

Lazorbeak I left you off the list but although you may not always agree with and be agreed with you certainly have logic based thinking and I agree with your post one hundred percent.

 

I think we've exhausted the "Vince screwed up again" discussion and the "this is the new attitude era" discussion.

 

So here's a question I hope doesn't get skimmed over. Its 2011, Raw has had virtually the same set (jumptron, ramp, opening promo, ring set up, for the last 15 years or so.

 

How would you freshen up RAW. From the way its presented to the way its formatted. I'm not asking for storylines just things like "I'd like to see this style of wrestling more" or "I'd like to see this style promo" or "I'd like a new set that looks like". Although I'm sure even this will be met with "RAW looks just fine the way it is even though it hasn't barely changed it all in a decade in a half".

 

RAW looks just fine the way it is even though it hasn't barely changed it all in a decade in a half.

[juggaloninjalee]

I would like to mix up the start of the show. Personally I don't mind the announcers giving a run down of the line up for the night with a camera shot of them. To me that would be my normal start to the show. Then sometimes cut them off with a monologue in the ring or a video backstage.

 

I don't mind the set at all though. It works how it is.

[Fantabulous]

Gordon Solie was a great commentator for the more serious style of wrestling or the wrestling presented in a serious and sports-like manner and not as some really bad joke or cartoon come to life. His best days were probably the late 70s to the mid 80s but as commentators go he was easily one of the very best. Bob Caudle is a really good colour guy who, like with Solie, excels with a product that is treated like a sport or at least is treated seriously where the matches are important and if something goes down it's something to be treated like it matters rather than a momentary deal that gets forgotten about five seconds later.

[dvdWarrior]

The Hiro Matsuda - Johnny Weaver incident for one, (which was a monumental event in my young wrestling psyche), and I can't even swear with 100% accuracy that he was the one making the call on that particular show.

 

Just looked up the Matsuda - Weaver thing on YouTube, and it was David Crockett on commentary for that. Still, if I try to think back to my earliest wrestling memories, Caudle is usually the voice I hear making the calls.

 

Just to clear up my earlier post.

 

[Linsolv]

Well... I don't mind how it is.

 

If you really want to know what I'd like to see changed, though...

 

I really like the style TNA is using right now with the ramp leading directly to the ring. I believe NJPW also uses a similar style for their big show in January, but I could be mistaken. As much as it's not traditional, I feel like it looks really classy, and I absolutely love it.

 

I'd like to see two entrances to the ring, at least for PPVs. This is somewhat counter to my previous point, but I've seen it done.

 

I'd like to see the entrance archways reworked. I don't like the huge video-wall; seeing those giant pixels really bothers me for some reason, and I'd rather see just a wall. Possibly padded.

 

I'd like to see Lawler replaced on commentary. Cole can stay, but I would like him to take a more back-seat role and be more heelish. Maybe Lawler can stick around as a manager, if he can be the serious Lawler we saw in the feuds with Miz and Cole. Put him on a Diva, and have him basically try to be her mentor/bodyguard. But you'd need to make his character a lot less of a pervert to do something like that. It might, possibly, work with JR as lead play-by-play, Cole being a heel color man, and then Booker doing comedy.

 

I'd like to stop seeing John Laurinitis. He makes everyone look short.

 

I'd like to see less space at ringside. Not TOO much less, but trim a foot or two off each side.

[Astil]

To be honest,

 

I like the SNME thing they did a while back with the 'side entrance' that looked it it came in through the crowd. Makes it seem more ... fan-friendly.

 

Right now it looks distant.

[Tha Black Phenom]

...what?

 

What has changed? John Cena is still being fed title shots, CM Punk still (at least in his character's eyes) has to feel underutilized, guys like Mason Ryan are still getting an absurd amount of TV time while guys like Colt Cabana still can't crack the WWE (he was given a "try out" about a month ago and now the WWE won't take his calls), the amount of actual wrestling on Raw has managed to go down so that Vince's family and/or stooges can put the spotlight on themselves, etc.

 

Pretty much all the stuff Punk rebelled about before hasn't changed, except that Punk has better shirts and he's in the opening to Raw now.

 

edit: Oh, and now F4W is reporting that John Morrison is probably done with the WWE once his contract expires soon. Summer Punk would have had a field day with the WWE driving out a talented and popular wrestler reportedly because they were upset with the woman he happened to be dating.

 

The idea that there's nothing for Punk to rebel against is mind-blowing.

 

lol @ anyone expecting the status quo to be changed so drastically. Right, everything's supposedly back to normal. So what? Despite Punk's crusade (even speaking kayfabe wise here) I don't think he would've expected things to change considerably. Punk isn't an idiot, and at the end of the day he knows why the status quo's there for a reason. He wants change. And he's working on it. But he's not gonna turn water into wine and drop pipebombs eternally.

 

If you want him to fight THOSE things, you're cheering him on a losing battle and trying to mold ideas around it is possible but inherently pointless on the long-term because he's destined... to fail.

 

Case in point, the best idea thrown around so far is him bringing back old incarnations of title belts. Groovy. But don't worry, I noticed the "little things" you said he could do too, which isn't a bad shout.

 

But oh, suddenly him not being anything he used to be makes him a kiss-ass? It's one or the other, right? Punk the rebel or Punk the kiss-ass. Kay. He happens to have the same line of thinking as Triple H believe it or not, which actually fits most of his stance behind his character about making a change. Don't believe me? Review HHH's promo and tell me Punk wouldn't agree with most of what he said. It's like that Twitter post suddenly went over your heads. Punk may have wore HHH's blazer but that doesn't make him any much of a kiss-ass - that's not even withstanding the fact HHH granted him a title shot right after a PPV loss. Punk casually going on his crusade would either render him an ungrateful lunatic or his act would get old eventually. So yeah, I do mean it when I say, he has nothing to rebel against anymore.

 

There's another top face in the equation now so there has been a change and he's benefitted most from it. But for those who think I'm being optimistic on that aspect and want to squeeze in their childish potshots because they're trying to find their words to refute accurately, fair enough.

 

I think OSB, Fantabulous and Bookerman have the right idea and they're all speaking the truth. Anybody that thinks this "character" of CM Punk is the same one that cut those scathing promos and walked out on the company is in critical denial.

 

And anybody who expected Punk's character to stay similar to its original state to begin with is delusional.

 

The thing is, he doesn't have to do worked shoots every week. He doesn't have to keep reciting the huge list of the WWE's problems to remain edgy and interesting. For example, I think he should have brought back the old winged eagle belt when he returned after MitB. He could have said that any belt good enough for Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels, the two greatest wrestlers ever, is good enough for him. Then when him and Cena wrestled at SS (or NoC, if they wanted a good build), they could have the match determine which belt would be used, with Punk winning. That's a simple way for Punk to remain edgy and appeal to relapsed WWE fans without hurting the promotion at all and it'd get rid of the current horrid belt design.

 

They could have even built on that, having Punk restore some prestige to the tag team and IC championships by bringing back the old belts. That'd also give a bit of a rub to Air Boom (and the tag team division) and Cody Rhodes.

 

If bringing back some old belts isn't feasible, and I'm not sure why not because I doubt there's many people with disposable income still itching to buy Cena's belt, there's other stuff that can be done. What about during that 12-man match, instead of Mason Ryan (because they don't want to bury him) The Great Khali comes out, Punk gets on the mic and tells him that while he is very tall, they need an actual wrestler, and calls out Zack Ryder. That certainly hurts Khali, he's reportedly on the way out anyway, but it also gives a rub to Ryder and furthers Punk doing things differently.

 

Or when one of the heels tries one of their generic heel tricks, Punk doesn't fall for it, instead kind of breaking the fourth wall and acting like it's ridiculous that anyone falls for that sort of stuff.

 

There's countless little things like that they could have Punk do, while occasionally letting him speak some uncomfortable truths, that would make his babyface-ness different and interesting. Instead, Punk has turned into a generic babyface.

 

There's countless things they could have Punk do... all coming from the average IWCer's personal wishlist. That's where I think it is wrong, and that many of you are expecting too much out of Punk's character for. I mean come on, he never touched on any of those things! There's a difference between wanting change and pandering to nostalgists by bringing back old titles to which he has no connection with whatsoever.

 

As for the 4th wall stuff, he does it already. Just to a lesser extent. And because he's actually smart, he's not gonna do it every single time because it's gonna get tiresome.

[OldStingberg]

There's another top face in the equation now so there has been a change and he's benefitted most from it.

 

Somehow, I don't think the change Punk wanted was Triple H returning to the spotlight.

 

But that's all I'll say about that. We're dangerously close, if we haven't already flown by this point, of just discussing this in circles.

[OldStingberg]

Well, the ratings for Raw are a classic case of good news/holycrapthat'sterrible news.

 

Overall, the show was up with a 3.24 rating, which is notably above the 3.0-3.1 Raw has been averaging. That was because people were very interested in seeing the fallout from the walkout. The first 30 minutes got a 3.62 rating.

 

That's the good news. The holycrapthat'sterrible news is that once people saw what they were doing with the walkout, a lot of viewers tuned out. All told, by the time they got to the PPV-caliber main event involving two of the last three WWE champions, Raw had lost 25% of its viewers, dropping the eighth quarter-hour all the way to a 2.77.

 

It'll be interesting to see what the WWE does with this. A lot of stuff kind of came to a head Monday, and the ratings (and critical reception) show that people were turned off by it. I'm not sure there's a graceful way for them to work themselves out of this one.

[BHK1978]

I'd like to see two entrances to the ring, at least for PPVs. This is somewhat counter to my previous point, but I've seen it done.

 

This will probably never happen for the simple fact that it would mean loss of revenue for them as they would have to remove those floor seats.

[MrOnu]

So the only way the Punk "rebel" persona would have worked for you was if he actually left the company? Not saying this to be a smartass I'm legitimately curious as to if this was your point.

 

CM Punk was never going to walk out of the company, but at least, they could have create the illusion of it. The illusion was never there for me, it felt just like any other storyline. Basically, I'd say that they, once again, rushed a potentiel good story. Worst for them : the short term pay off wasn't even that great! Punk came back too quickly, it didn't fit the persona, it was an too rapid evolution.

[bigtplaystew]

CM Punk was never going to walk out of the company, but at least, they could have create the illusion of it. The illusion was never there for me, it felt just like any other storyline. Basically, I'd say that they, once again, rushed a potentiel good story. Worst for them : the short term pay off wasn't even that great! Punk came back too quickly, it didn't fit the persona, it was an too rapid evolution.

 

I hear you. I really do. In a perfect world they would have rested Punk more and gave him a more "holy crap" moment. Years ago, they certainly would have. I feel this is a fair criticism.

 

But they HAD to capitalize on him while he was hot. In 2011 people forget about you and do it FAST. There is no secret as to why theres a 90 day no-compete clause on any WWE talent's contract. This is also why there will never be another "monday night wars" as that time period largely hinged on people "jumping ship" to the other company.

 

Still, I do agree, they could have rested Punk a little longer. I think if WWE made a big mistake, it was the way they handled the Triple H/Punk/Nash feud. It was obvious they were going for a slow build there and HHH and Punk would have gained mutual respect for each other eventually. But it was rushed because of Nash's "injury" or whatever it was preventing him from competing in that match with Punk. Although WWE has to take some of the blame here. How they interlace Nash in a feud of that magnitude without knowing he can wrestle is well beyond me. And even if his injury was a surprise last minute thing, then how do you not have a legit backup plan?

 

If that would have taken a few months longer, I think the Triple H / Punk feud cooling down would have seemed more natural. Instead, it comes off rushed and I think it hurt Punk's character slightly.

[Linsolv]

90 days? I'd have given him 30.

 

Here's my ideal: They spend a week, maybe 2, trying to pretend nothing happened. Have one of the tournament rounds per week from week 3 on. (that way, you can have the finals at PPV). Have Vince come out for all the matches to keep an eye on his title, to ensure that there's no funny business etc etc. Week 3, some time during the matches, have someone (maybe John Laurinitis I guess) come out, whisper in Vince's ear. Vince looks mad; you know how good he is at looking mad. However, he says nothing. Matches continue, but you have the commentators say something about "I wonder what Johnny Ace just told Mr McMahon?" Next week, same thing, except this time he shouts "He said WHAT?!" and walk off. Matches continue.

 

PPV shows up, Cena vs. Mysterio, blah blah blah. Cena wins, and then Cult of Personality hits the speakers and Punk walks out in his ring gear, walks to the ring, and you have a staredown.

 

It can be hard to remember things for months--although to me it was a big wait for South Park to start back up because of how they'd ended the half-season. People CAN remember, but with Vince's booking style there's no REASON to remember.

[ZMAN]

Just feels like Punk is no longer a major player and is being replaced by John L. and HHH. I get it, the guy lost a very competitive match against HHH, totally reasonable. But having the guy lose to HHH and then take HHH's side and be like buddies (like he never even did that shoot promo) is crap. Instead of Punk trying to remove HHH from power (which makes more sense based off Punks words and actions), the role got handed to John L. for w/e fcking reason.

 

I'm a big WWE supporter, and love the **** out of what they do, but the new direction they are going with this storyline is weak. I mean, if they want to go back to doing strong storylines with weak endings (see Nexus, Invasion) then I guess that's cool, but don't expect people to be that interested.

[sabataged]

Anyone remember the Summerslam they did back in like 98 or 99 with Austin vs Undertaker? How the Entrance way was close and had no ramp. Also it was in front of the hard camera side. I think they should try something like that.

[bigtplaystew]

Just feels like Punk is no longer a major player and is being replaced by John L. and HHH. I get it, the guy lost a very competitive match against HHH, totally reasonable. But having the guy lose to HHH and then take HHH's side and be like buddies (like he never even did that shoot promo) is crap.

 

Well I see your points, but I'll disagree with you respectfully in the following ways:

 

1) Punk's absolutely a major player. He's been involved with every top storyline since summerslam, has had a top match in every ppv since that time, and has had arguably more TV time than anyone outside of obviously triple H.

 

2) I dont think that because Punk sided on HHH's side ONE time on ONE issue on one ONE raw now that this establishes Punk and HHH as "buddies" or as stated before that Punk is "kissing ass". I think they established in storyline that Punk had a new found respect for triple h after the events that transpired after their match and also he established his own reasoning for not being part of the "walkout".

 

 

 

Now the one point you made that I agree with 100% is the fact that they can build a storyline as well as anyone but often screw up the finish. Problem with this storyline is that no matter who ends up being the person or people behind the conspiracy against HHH... the fans will be disappointed regardless. The myriad of "I called it!" reactions will be everywhere no matter who it is. John Laurenitis, Stephanie McMahon, Vince McMahon, Foley, whatever. I have a strong feeling theres going to be a huge chunk of the wrestling community that will be unimpressed no matter how this turns out.

[djthefunkchris]

Just want to acknowledge right away, that I kind of like Linsolv's take on how it should have happened. Don't know if it was possible, but I like it.

 

"IF" there was any truth to the talks about them desiring better ratings for their TV shows, then I would imagine "giving away" match's that could have been reserved for PPV's is a way to up the ratings. I don't really think that's what happened, but felt like throwing it up in the mix here. Kind of negates a few things, but at the same time opens up a few more.

 

Also, everyone "Get's" what is being said, no matter if they agree or not. No need to act like your smarter, as it has the opposite effect. Lot's of good idea's been thrown out here, and I like alot of them. IF I don't agree with other conversation piece's, or I agree with TBP (for example), doesn't mean I don't appreciate other points of view. I'm sure I'm not alone with that. I'm human though, as is anyone else... IF my thoughts are thrown to the side as if they don't matter, then the tendancy is to do the same to others. It kind of makes for sloppy conversation.

 

Far as what I would like changed...> I would like to see more action and less talk... Been my biggest complaint since the late 80's. I don't have a problem with the ramps and entrance music, etc. I like it, to be honest. I just hate getting in the ring, talking about this guy, this guy pops up says something back, then being told "WAIT!! This will happen three weeks from now at the next PPV!!" Hate it, hate it, hate it.

[bigtplaystew]

everyone "Get's" what is being said, no matter if they agree or not..

 

Well said. People always act like the people who disagree with them are inferior. This is unavoidable.

 

 

 

This is my own point of view of course, and I'm not associating this with what Chris said. But I feel like there's a negative contingent of wrestling fans that act like they know all the answers. They've been watching longer than me and they have more inside back story. So I'm dumber than them for liking the current WWE product.

 

I guess I am stupid if I'm actually enjoying what you're also watching and apparently hating, spending tons of time reading about on the net, etc....

[MrCanada]

Who's In Your Fav 5

 

Booker T's "Fav 5" thing is kind of annoying, because it appears as though their are 13 people on his list. However, I think it is an interesting thing to think about, about who is your "Fav 5", aka if they are on TV you need to watch, or you at least need to look up their matches/segments on youtube the day after.

 

That said... Mine, in no particular order besides #1.

 

1. CM Punk

2. Zack Ryder

3. Dolph Ziggler

4. Tyson Kidd

5. Daniel Bryan

 

And for the hell of it, what are your "Fav 3" Divas?

 

1. Natalya

2. AJ

3. Beth Phoenix

 

 

Interested to see other people's lists, as it is kind of a spotlight on people's preferences.

 

 

EDIT: Am I the only person who wants to see Kidd vs. Danielson in a 60-minute Iron Man match

[soxfan93]

1. CM Punk

2. Daniel Bryan

3. Wade Barrett

4. Dolph Ziggler

5. Zack Ryder

 

I couldn't care less about the divas. As for the Bryan/Kidd question, I'd rather see Punk vs. Bryan go an hour, one fall to a finish. As much as I loved the Hart vs. Michaels WrestleMania XII Iron Man Match, I've become less and less interested in them. When you know a match is going 60 minutes regardless of what happens, it kind of cheapens it, in my opinion. I'd rather see false finishes that keep the match going, making it look like it may never end. See: Any Ring of Honor main event.

[OldStingberg]

1) CM Punk

2) Dolph Ziggler

3) Kofi Kingston

4) Christian

5) John Morrison

 

I watched Smackdown while doing my cardio tonight. I was happy with the show. Simple feuds that make sense and a lot of solid wrestling is usually a winning formula.

[Slagaholic]

Is anyone else starting to get Russo-chills when watching Raw?

 

Smackdown has been a much more fun ride in recent weeks.

[20LEgend]

1) CM Punk

2) Dolph Ziggler

=) Dee Bryan

Now I'm struggling...

4) Zack Ryder

5) William Regal (honourary mention but I do look forward to him being on TV, and I like him)