The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[BurningHamster]

You would be correct! I like the dominating heel and it seems like it has been ages since the WWE had one of these. Orton was pretty good but he still lost too many matches.

 

I'd love to see a heel go on a 6+ month streak kicking the crap out of everyone. When that face finally beats a guy like this then the match has meaning.

 

WWE books their heels to look so weak at times.

 

I remember hearing someone comment once (think it may have been Kevin Sullivan) that WWE/F has always been set up as a babyface promotion which when you think about it is kind of true dating back to the Hogan era and possibly earlier. Top guy sells the merch, does the talking, brings in the crowds and takes on all comers and the heels are usually (with the exception of the long Triple H run which most people hated) getting beaten down and taking most of the bumps.

 

I agree though, if a good heel went on a total dominant run I would be all over that. CM Punk preferably because I think he is one of the few people who could remain heel while being so dominant thanks to his jerkish charm.

[Hyde Hill]

That is true about the WWE but lately they seem more intent on the money in the chase stuff. But using a cowardly heel instead of a brutal one.

[PeterHilton]

You would be correct! I like the dominating heel and it seems like it has been ages since the WWE had one of these. Orton was pretty good but he still lost too many matches.

 

 

Yeah, I was about to say...when was the last time you had a dominant heel in the E? One of my biggest gripes is that they turn every heel, no matter their look or character, into the typical 'cowardly heel.'

 

Used to bug the crap out of me...couldn;t stand watching guys like Angle and Jericho (especially Angle) scurry away from Cena at every confrontation.

 

Trips as The Game and Lesnar never get over in the WWE with the way main event heels are booked right now.

[CQI13]

I remember hearing someone comment once (think it may have been Kevin Sullivan) that WWE/F has always been set up as a babyface promotion which when you think about it is kind of true dating back to the Hogan era and possibly earlier. Top guy sells the merch, does the talking, brings in the crowds and takes on all comers and the heels are usually (with the exception of the long Triple H run which most people hated) getting beaten down and taking most of the bumps.

 

I agree though, if a good heel went on a total dominant run I would be all over that. CM Punk preferably because I think he is one of the few people who could remain heel while being so dominant thanks to his jerkish charm.

 

I think in the same interview he also mentioned WCW was the opposite, with the heels dominating and faces fighting to overcome. I think he mentioned the Horsemen (original incarnation) and the nWo as examples. Even with Goldberg, the whole build up was to take on whoever the heel champ was.

[Dragonmack]

I think in the same interview he also mentioned WCW was the opposite, with the heels dominating and faces fighting to overcome. I think he mentioned the Horsemen (original incarnation) and the nWo as examples. Even with Goldberg, the whole build up was to take on whoever the heel champ was.

 

At least in the horseman situations, the heels had long title runs broken up by short babyface runs, and it was usually the babyface chasing the heels.

 

However the NWO by the end got so dominant that it was almost sickening to watch because you knew the faces were going to get beaten down in mass and that the NWO was going to be standing tall at the end every time, with the exception of when it was Sting.

 

The Horsemen may have won and held the titles, but they lost plenty of matches to the faces, made each one look like a serious threat, and in general made those storylines much more interesting.

 

The NWO's was as soon as any babyface other than Sting started getting over on them, they either destroyed him or had Bischoff screw them over and then destroy his credibility.

 

Difference basically being the Horseman era was always interesting to watch, NWO got predictable and pathetic after the initial burst.

[sebsplex]

Yeah, I was about to say...when was the last time you had a dominant heel in the E? One of my biggest gripes is that they turn every heel, no matter their look or character, into the typical 'cowardly heel.'

 

Used to bug the crap out of me...couldn;t stand watching guys like Angle and Jericho (especially Angle) scurry away from Cena at every confrontation.

 

Trips as The Game and Lesnar never get over in the WWE with the way main event heels are booked right now.

 

For some reason, the WWE favours presenting a flawed heel as being cowardly as opposed to say just lucky, calculating or overconfident, hammering home the message that they're cheating or running because they HAVE to, rather than they're doing so because it's easier or more tactical. I was really into Orton's IED storyline a while ago after punting the McMahon's, but instead of him being an unstable and dangerous heel who only has periods of realising/fearing his actions, he was soon crawling around his house trying to hide from HHH and being portrayed as an equal to (and even fearing) Shane-O-Mac. I don't know whether it's a desire not to create more subtle characters, but meh.

[CQI13]

At least in the horseman situations, the heels had long title runs broken up by short babyface runs, and it was usually the babyface chasing the heels.

 

However the NWO by the end got so dominant that it was almost sickening to watch because you knew the faces were going to get beaten down in mass and that the NWO was going to be standing tall at the end every time, with the exception of when it was Sting.

 

The Horsemen may have won and held the titles, but they lost plenty of matches to the faces, made each one look like a serious threat, and in general made those storylines much more interesting.

 

The NWO's was as soon as any babyface other than Sting started getting over on them, they either destroyed him or had Bischoff screw them over and then destroy his credibility.

 

Difference basically being the Horseman era was always interesting to watch, NWO got predictable and pathetic after the initial burst.

 

I'll have to re-watch the interview, but that's how I remember Sullivan explaining it (at least the Horsemen era). Did that carry over from the NWA? Just from clips I've seen, with Dusty winning and something happening (the cage match) directly after it. Can't think of other examples, as I'm not well versed on the era.

 

As an aside, here's a running diary Bill Simmons (ESPN.com Page2) had for WM26. Hilarious commentary.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100330

[Dragonmack]

I'll have to re-watch the interview, but that's how I remember Sullivan explaining it (at least the Horsemen era). Did that carry over from the NWA? Just from clips I've seen, with Dusty winning and something happening (the cage match) directly after it. Can't think of other examples, as I'm not well versed on the era.

 

As an aside, here's a running diary Bill Simmons (ESPN.com Page2) had for WM26. Hilarious commentary.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100330

 

I think part of it may stem from who were their champions before hand. I don't know about the earlier history of NWA before the 80's except Harley Race was the main champion before Flair, and he was usually a heel or a tweener. Flair was actually a face chasing him for most of their feud. But at least for the late 70's and the 80's NWA/WCW's dominant champions were heels. Whereas the WWF/E for that time mostly had faces on top for long runs like Bruno Sammartino, Bob Backlund and Hulk Hogan. So the formulas were different in that NWA usually had faces chasiing heels,and WWE had the face champions fending off dangerous heels.

 

Another factor was that NWA would have more main title changes, probably owing to the fact it was initially an alliance of territories. That is how Race was a 7 time champion, Dusty a 3 time and Flair a 5 time champion during that era ( Flair beat Race's number in the early 90's I believe.) But the WWE champions had long uninterrupted reigns back then if they were the main guy. Sammartino was 6 years, so was Backlund and Hogan was 4 years till Andre beat him.

 

So I guess WWE's philosophy has almost always been having a strong babyface champion, they just float the title(s) around a lot more now.

[lazorbeak]

People getting nostalgic for "bad-ass" heels don't get that in a promotion like WWE, bad-asses have been getting cheered regardless of whether a booker wants them to be face or heel. Triple H still got cheers for his spit-take entrance and the Pedigree even when he was top heel. Lesnar was so good at being the top heel that his original heel run was less than a year before the fans essentially turned him face. Nobody boos Steve Austin for talking smack and then backing it up, nobody boos Orton for responding to unfair authority by booting them in the skull. The truth is, in a sports entertainment company, unless a guy is kicking babies or has obvious flaws or is constantly cheating, at least some of the crowd wants to cheer them because they know who they are. The Rock was a huge jerk to everyone, the fans included, and the fans cheered because he was so good at it. A bad-ass heel who does exactly what he says he's going to do and is booked like he's unbeatable is only a heel so long as he's beating up babyfaces the crowd likes. It's really only effective if you already have a steady stream of guys the crowd is really behind: the Rock in 1999 was a heel working with Austin, but was a babyface against practically any other guy on the roster. After Brock Lesnar mowed through Hogan, RVD and the Hardy Boyz, guys the crowd loved, he was turned face because he looked like such a bad-ass next to the Rock. It just doesn't work to have a heel that's booked to look dominant for an extended period of time without obvious heel flaws.

[CQI13]

Doesn't it also come down to the fact that people cheer winners (at least in WWE), so if a heel keeps on winning he'll end up getting cheered (i.e. the bad ass Brock Lesnar).

[The Oracle]

People getting nostalgic for "bad-ass" heels don't get that in a promotion like WWE, bad-asses have been getting cheered regardless of whether a booker wants them to be face or heel.

 

That's because wrestling is no longer seen as a legit fighting scenario. So, your want to see the bad guy get his is no longer as heavy. Also the WWE tends to book their heels as more interesting characters so they end up getting cheered because people like their nature more than some guy who just acts like a generic babyface.

[Hyde Hill]

Hell even in the 80's some heels where getting cheered the WWE just tended to muffle it away. There is nothing wrong with it as long as the face is also getting cheers. The days of heels getting universally booed and faces getting cheered are dead and buried. As long as its clear who is the bad guy and who is the good guy and they have interesting characters and an interesting storyline and put on a good match it really doesn't matter anymore in the current day and age.

[Wrestling Century]

Who would you guys like to be a future world champ? I would like either Cody Rhodes or Shelton Benjamin to be a future world champ. They just seem to fit the world champion mold in my mind.

[Linsolv]

CM Punk. Though, he's already been a champ before, I'd like to see it again.

[Self]

Who would you guys like to be a future world champ? I would like either Cody Rhodes or Shelton Benjamin to be a future world champ. They just seem to fit the world champion mold in my mind.

 

I don't like guys who 'fit the mould'. Champions should be special. They should stand out. That being said, your choices aren't bad. Although I think Shelton's been around too long and has become stale. Cody might be good enough one day. Decent talker, decent wrestler, he just needs to find that 'thing' that makes him special. Something that makes people go "that's the best fighter in the world". Something that makes him stand out.

 

My list is basically my current favorite WWE wrestlers (it is who I want to be World Champ after all) I have a fairly deep man-crush on John Morrison, so I'd like to see him to get to that level. The Miz' recent promos have been excellent, despite not standing out physically in any way. I'd love to see Matt Hardy get back into shape, reinvent himself and make it to the top. Finally, Zack Ryder because, well, Woo Woo Woo. You Know It.

 

There was a time I would have put Koslov on the list, because he fought differently to everyone else. He's done now though. The shine has gone.

[SaySo]

For people who don't visit TNA thread in here, here is the replay.

 

Raw 3.7

 

Impact 0.6

[lazorbeak]

Doesn't it also come down to the fact that people cheer winners (at least in WWE), so if a heel keeps on winning he'll end up getting cheered (i.e. the bad ass Brock Lesnar).

 

Especially if the winners are consistently booked to be stronger than the babyfaces. Mainstream fans like strength, both physical strength and strength of character. Which is why your heels need to be booked as smart, cowardly, monstrous, or some other variation.

 

That's because wrestling is no longer seen as a legit fighting scenario. So, your want to see the bad guy get his is no longer as heavy. Also the WWE tends to book their heels as more interesting characters so they end up getting cheered because people like their nature more than some guy who just acts like a generic babyface.

 

I think fans still want some aspect of good guy vs. bad guy though. Just look at MMA and what they've done to promote Brock Lesnar as a bad guy even in a legit fight scenario. I'm not saying people don't want physical competition, but there's still a big market for good vs. evil.

 

Who would you guys like to be a future world champ? I would like either Cody Rhodes or Shelton Benjamin to be a future world champ. They just seem to fit the world champion mold in my mind.

 

John Morrison has the perfect look for a heel champ: he's so ridiculously good-looking the average red-blooded male would resent him the same way they did heel HBK way back when. Looks like a champion now, and is only 30.

 

Harry Smith: second generation, good look, great size, only 23 years old. Time is on his side and his mediocre charisma is probably fixable. I could easily see him as a main event babyface.

 

The Miz: I can't believe it either, but the Miz has been absolutely incredible in his development the past two years. He reminds me of a young Chris Jericho on the mic, and unlike guys like Christian and Jericho, he doesn't look like he needs to wear lifts to look six feet tall. Would also make a strong heel champ.

 

There's probably a few other guys I think could be champs, especially with two world title belts, but those three seem like slam dunks right now, especially Harry Smith.

[TheOmniWarrior]

Theres a few

RAW:

Carlito (He was afterall supposed to be there already)

Chris Masters, Although he should be a ruthless unstoppable heel IMO

Christian, Just because

Zach Ryder, A personal pick

 

SD!

Curt Hawkins (In real world mods I give him against the world gimmick so heres hoping, btw wasnt he off the SD page? I guess hes back on main roster?)

Dolph Ziggler, One of my favorite modern day stars

Ezekiel Jackson, If booked right

Morrisson, Lets be honest he is the next-gen HBK, people have been saying it since he was teaming with Joey Mercury

DH Smith, Because hes the son of the bulldog

MAYBE R-truth

 

NXT:

Wade Barret

David Otunga

[PeterHilton]

Chris Masters, Although he should be a ruthless unstoppable heel IMO

 

 

Wow..there goes your credibility. lol

[The Final Countdown]

I love the irony of Michael Cole calling someone a nerd.

[crownsy]

Just watched NXT. decent show overall.

 

Jericho on commentary was class. Cole is awful trying to play up this heel aspect they have him on against Daniel...it just doesn't work for me.

 

Liked the battle royal, and jericho subbing his Rookie in. Nice touch to have him pull the upset via jericho and then have it tick off the other seven so much that they bum rushed him in the battle royal.

 

Like the fact that otunga won the rumble and will now Guest host Raw....which in effect means his wife is hosting raw hehe.

[TommyDreamerFan]

Watching Wrestlemania 2000... Christ such a better mania then the one I purchased two nights ago (though bare in mind, this was my childhood year so theres a fair bit of nostalgic love here). I'm watching Kurt Angle vs Jericho vs Benoit right now....

 

1. Chris Jericho and Kurt Angle are two of my top favorite wrestlers of all time. Talent on loan from God and oozing with charisma.

 

2. Whenever I see Benoit now, it's creepy. I can appreciate his talent, his hard work and his passion, but just seeing stuff like his entrance video is just well... Unsettling, almost as if it was foreshadowing the future. Obviously, I know thats not true, still gives me the heebie jeebies.

 

3. Would anyone ever pay to see Too Cool ever again? To this day it saddens me we never saw them re-form. Probably my favorite tag team of all time.

 

4. This is the last we'd see of Big Show when he was in top-shape. *Le Sigh*

 

Wow..there goes your credibility. lol

 

Masters was decent by WWE standards and was getting fairly over up until he was fired. Don't know why the E brought him back, they've wasted what value he could of been.

 

Yeah okay, he was fairly green and broke Stevie's nose but of all the guys the E has pushed he was well far from unbearable.

[TommyDreamerFan]

Really says a lot about myself with the wrestlers I liked when I was 11ish.

 

Rikishi, Kane, The Rock, Jericho, Raven, Big Show, Mankind

 

It's a mismash of guys that were the charismatic stars and the freaks and huge monsters.

 

I remember being the only kid cheering in the Nassau coliseum for Heel Rikishi to kick Stone Cold's rear. Oh man... How I wasn't an Austin fan back then.

 

I DID IT FOR THE ROCK! HELL YEAH!

[The Final Countdown]

Wow, Swagger wins WWE World Heavyweight title? Interesting.

If that's a Smackdown spoiler...thank you so much for ruining it. Not everybody reads those, you know.

[PeterHilton]

Masters was decent by WWE standards and was getting fairly over up until he was fired. Don't know why the E brought him back, they've wasted what value he could of been.

 

 

This is another one of those cases where you live in a different version of reality than I do.

 

First, Masters was AWFUL. God AWFUL. In the ring and on the mic. Just a total botchfest.

 

Secondly, he was nowhere near over. He was given months and months of time with the Masterlock challenge, was put into a program with HBK and Cena off the bat, and yet everytime he talked the crowd completely turned on him. He got X-Pac heat. The only person who was less over than him at the time was Rob Conway.

 

I have no idea what you were watching if you thought he was 'fairly over'

 

He wasn't getting booed as a heel. People wanted him off TV.