The Official ROH Discussion Thread

[cappyboy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="mrwhippy" data-cite="mrwhippy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>At least they're putting over their own guys again.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't New Japan also done chewing RoH's scenery for another year? The two issues do seem to run concurrently</p>

[thecoolestjedi12]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="cappyboy" data-cite="cappyboy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't New Japan also done chewing RoH's scenery for another year? The two issues do seem to run concurrently</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I think this is when they take the break from each other, I hope so, good talent has been wasted in favor of putting over NJPW guys</p>

[BHK1978]

I felt the PPV dragged a little bit. All of the matches seemed sluggish, for lack of a better term. I did like the Match Without Honor, mainly because I was going into that match thinking it was going to suck but it ended being pretty good. I think the dead crowd did not help things either.

 

I find that when the crowd is really into the show it enhances the shows. When they are dead it really makes the show feel less enjoyable.

[Warhawk8492]

I am thinking Jay Lethal could very well be dropping the ROH title to Adam Cole due to Bullet Club interference. This could set up The House of Truth Vs The Bullet Club. Could make for some good TV.

[Mootinie]

The issue is that if that's the plan for Final Battle, they could wind up giving the title to a free agent or even having a free agent retain it. There are six ROH contracts up in December, they are the contracts of Jay Lethal, Matt Jackson, Nick Jackson, Bobby Fish, Kyle O'Reilly and Adam Cole.

[niall2015]

I downloaded the FITE app and caught the latest show with Bullet Club vs the Briscoes and Jay Lethal. First time I've ever watched a Ring of Honor show, Im impressed not gonna lie, Moose and Dijak seem like future WWE stars with their size and ability. Also I gotta say, that guy Caprice Coleman is hilarious. One thing though, what the f**k was that Kevin Sullivan/Steve Corino thing? That looked so amateurish

[cappyboy]

I downloaded the FITE app and caught the latest show with Bullet Club vs the Briscoes and Jay Lethal. First time I've ever watched a Ring of Honor show, Im impressed not gonna lie, Moose and Dijak seem like future WWE stars with their size and ability. Also I gotta say, that guy Caprice Coleman is hilarious. One thing though, what the f**k was that Kevin Sullivan/Steve Corino thing? That looked so amateurish

 

Funny how much more entertaining the Young Bucks are to watch when Steve Corino is not on commentary for their matches. I'm still not the biggest fan in the world and still tend to see them as Hardys Lite. But at least other color people can talk about them without sounding like they are having an orgasm on a live mic. Makes it easier to appreciate the admittedly considerable talent when it's okay to just watch them and not be expected to spazz out like Steve does.

 

With you on the Caprice Coleman love but can't say I was a big fan of seeing him with the All Night Express. Such the personality mismatch. You have the ordained minister whose faith is even reflected in his entrance music a la Caprice hanging with a couple (not entirely believeable [especially Kenny]) party animals in ANX? I know Caprice has been letting Prince Nana corrupt him and acting more heelish lately but that was just too bizarre a pairing.

 

As for the Corino/Sullivan thing, that relationship is pretty new as far as the story world is concerned. Kind of threw me off too. But ultimately my thought on that is "Why ask why? Drink Bud Dry." I'm not too big a fan of dark gimmicks as a general rule. But Sullivan's always had a knack for breaking through that reluctance and selling them to me anyway. A segment that puts him back on my screen again is therefore welcome just on principle. I'm sure all the whys and wherefores of that story will sort themselves out on screen in due time.

[BHK1978]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="cappyboy" data-cite="cappyboy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>With you on the Caprice Coleman love but can't say I was a big fan of seeing him with the All Night Express. Such the personality mismatch. You have the ordained minister whose faith is even reflected in his entrance music a la Caprice hanging with a couple (not entirely believeable [especially Kenny]) party animals in ANX? I know Caprice has been letting Prince Nana corrupt him and acting more heelish lately but that was just too bizarre a pairing.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Odd that you say especially Kenny because Kenny was or still might be a male stripper (Jim Cornette brought that up during a shoot interview about why he hates Kenny King). If he still is a stripper it is sort of his job to be a party animal. I do agree that Caprice being paired with them does not seem to gel with them.</p>

[cappyboy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BHK1978" data-cite="BHK1978" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Odd that you say especially Kenny because Kenny was or still might be a male stripper (Jim Cornette brought that up during a shoot interview about why he hates Kenny King). If he still is a stripper it is sort of his job to be a party animal. I do agree that Caprice being paired with them does not seem to gel with them.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I must dislike Kenny even more than I realized then. Because it's always felt like he was trying way too hard at his gimmick. If his party boy shtick is based on his off camera life and it still isn't translating right, there must be some other issue I've overlooked with him I didn't realize I had. During his first run in RoH, I forgave the issue because at least he had a personality. This was a company that employed the likes of Kyle O'Reilly and BJ Whitmer after all. In TNA it was like at least he's in the right environment. But for whatever the reason, of the two guys in ANX, I've always found Rhett to be the far more credible.</p>

[K-Nection]

In the words of Whatculture.....F*** Kenny!

[cappyboy]

Anybody else disappointed by the notion of Lethal v Cole at Death Before Dishonor? In just talent terms it should be a good match. But in story terms I absolutely hate the notion that Cole should get this opportunity so quickly after Nigel saying Cole would never again get a world title shot while he was matchmaker. It's almost like he's being rewarded for taking out Kyle O'Reilly and embarrassing the world champion. Not that I give a darn about O'Reilly. I'm actually glad Adam Cole and the Bucks shelved him. But in story terms, it feels horribly wrong that Cole's separation from the world title should be lifted so easily.

 

What would I have seen done instead? Let Nigel give Cole to Lethal but emphasize he can't allow the world title to be at stake. Or perhaps have Nigel refuse to give Cole to Lethal because of the ban. Causing Lethal to threaten not to defend the title at all until he show up Cole with the gold on the line. Ratchet up the stakes of that ban on Cole. Would Nigel really strip Lethal under those circumstances? If not, then at least it makes more sense for Nigel to cave. I'd much rather have seen Nigel wrestle with the consequences of sticking by his word vs cheesing off the world champ and have had the Lethal/Cole title match on a later PPV. This feels like TNA style rushing for the Lethal/Cole world title match to come so very quickly.

[Warhawk8492]

Another great PPV from Ring of Honor, not a bad match on the show. The main event was great.

[cappyboy]

Man, here we go again with the Japanese guys and the stables that mean precious little on this side of the ocean just because RoH brass is enamored with the notion of Bullet Club. I swear they sometimes make me feel as though I'm the only viewer out there who couldn't give a warm bucket of spit about seeing Shibata challenge Bobby Fish for the TV title. Although to be fair to Shibata that's as much the fact I can't stand Fish as it is Shibata's presence as challenger. And these Los Igner-whatevers. Ho hum. YAWN!! If I wanted to see the stables of New Japan, I'd find a way to you know actually watch New Japan. I dread to think what would have happened to the Adam Coles and Jay Lethals of the company had this New Japan overkill been the modus operandi when the company was originally taken over by Sinclair Broadcasting. I don't doubt that talents of the New Japan guys at all. But darnit how is a Lio Rush or a Donavon Dijak supposed to climb the ranks and be embraced the way the Coles and Lethals are if nobody ever gets to see them because of New Japan sticking their nose in all the time?

[BHK1978]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="cappyboy" data-cite="cappyboy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Man, here we go again with the Japanese guys and the stables that mean precious little on this side of the ocean just because RoH brass is enamored with the notion of Bullet Club. I swear they sometimes make me feel as though I'm the only viewer out there who couldn't give a warm bucket of spit about seeing Shibata challenge Bobby Fish for the TV title. Although to be fair to Shibata that's as much the fact I can't stand Fish as it is Shibata's presence as challenger. And these Los Igner-whatevers. Ho hum. YAWN!! If I wanted to see the stables of New Japan, I'd find a way to you know actually watch New Japan. I dread to think what would have happened to the Adam Coles and Jay Lethals of the company had this New Japan overkill been the modus operandi when the company was originally taken over by Sinclair Broadcasting. I don't doubt that talents of the New Japan guys at all. But darnit how is a Lio Rush or a Donavon Dijak supposed to climb the ranks and be embraced the way the Coles and Lethals are if nobody ever gets to see them because of New Japan sticking their nose in all the time?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I agree one hundred percent. I want to see Ring of Honor not New Japan. I could care less about Japanese wrestling. I would not mind them bringing over the Japanese wrestlers once a year but now it seems to be the new normal in ROH.</p><p> </p><p> I guess maybe they do not think their talent is over enough.</p>

[Mootinie]

ROH are the worst wrestling promotion in the world in terms of elevating talent. Look at how many of their guys have gone to bigger and better things once leaving, both to bigger ponds (WWE), smaller ponds (EVOLVE) and similar-sized ponds (TNA).

 

It's impossible to believe that this promotion failed to do anything significant with Tommaso Ciampa and Cedric Alexander. Michael Elgin has done his career best work since leaving too (well, he's still part-time ROH) and Moose and Michael Bennett have both been given better opportunities in TNA instead of working the same six man tag on every major show.

[The Final Countdown]

I love NJPW; it's my favorite product today. I also happen to agree with what you guys are saying. They rely on NJPW guys to drive ticket sales far too much; what's going to happen if NJPW decides they want to run their own shows in the US (which is apparently something they're already looking at or at least considering)?

 

ROH are the worst wrestling promotion in the world in terms of elevating talent. Look at how many of their guys have gone to bigger and better things once leaving, both to bigger ponds (WWE), smaller ponds (EVOLVE) and similar-sized ponds (TNA).

 

It's impossible to believe that this promotion failed to do anything significant with Tommaso Ciampa and Cedric Alexander. Michael Elgin has done his career best work since leaving too (well, he's still part-time ROH) and Moose and Michael Bennett have both been given better opportunities in TNA instead of working the same six man tag on every major show.

I think they did plenty with Bennett but I agree with the rest. Back around Final Battle 2014 I was hoping Ciampa would be the guy to eventually dethrone Briscoe for the world title, and instead he was out of the company what, 3 or 4 months later? Wasted opportunity.

 

And lest we forget they were actually the first American company to have TJ Perkins under contract. They signed him early on in the Sinclair era, which was my first exposure to him. I was impressed and thought he could be a guy they could build up in the future. Evidently they didn't agree, because he was around for less than a year and did absolutely nothing of note. Sad as it is to say, even TNA utilized him better than ROH did (and from what I saw of his TNA run, that's faint praise to be sure.)

 

I've been an ROH fan since 2004. There was a time that I probably would've stopped watching wrestling altogether if it wasn't for them, but my interest in their product is at an all-time low. I have like 7 episodes of their TV show sitting on my DVR unwatched. It's just hard for me to care about their product for a lot of reasons, a big one being how outdated it all seems. In this modern era of streaming services, where I can watch all of the big shows from WWE and NJPW in addition to hours upon hours of on-demand content for less than $20 a month combined, how in the world can I justify paying $45 or however much it is to watch one ROH PPV? Especially when most of them heavily feature NJPW guys, who I can just watch on NJPW World in matches that actually matter?

 

Not to mention their taping schedule, where it takes like 3 weeks after a PPV for the TV show to actually catch up to it? I get that they want to save money by taping a bunch of shows at once, but surely there has to be a better way to go about it. As things stand now, I just can't bring myself to care about them. I can easily see myself dropping ROH altogether within the next few months, which would've been unthinkable to me at one point.

 

Wow, that was a much longer rant than I intended to write when I started this reply. I guess I've had that bottled up for awhile!

[cappyboy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Final Countdown" data-cite="The Final Countdown" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> </p><p> Not to mention their taping schedule, where it takes like 3 weeks after a PPV for the TV show to actually catch up to it? I get that they want to save money by taping a bunch of shows at once, but surely there has to be a better way to go about it. As things stand now, I just can't bring myself to care about them. I can easily see myself dropping ROH altogether within the next few months, which would've been unthinkable to me at one point. </p><p> </p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> You aren't just whistlin' Dixie there, Brotha. That's been a problem for a long time. I remember when they stripped the RoH title from Jay Brisco over the gay marriage comments. Practically the entire field of the tournament to replace him had been announced on the Internet before any need for a tourney had ever been demonstrated on television. It horribly devalued weeks of action on TV because the show was so far behind the curve. And back then, I thought that was most annoyed I could get with them. Now with this insistence on acting like a New Japan farm league, I see was wrong. But I have certainly been there with you as far as the filming sked goes.</p>

[BHK1978]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Mootinie" data-cite="Mootinie" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>ROH are the worst wrestling promotion in the world in terms of elevating talent. Look at how many of their guys have gone to bigger and better things once leaving, both to bigger ponds (WWE), smaller ponds (EVOLVE) and similar-sized ponds (TNA). <p> </p><p> It's impossible to believe that this promotion failed to do anything significant with Tommaso Ciampa and Cedric Alexander. Michael Elgin has done his career best work since leaving too (well, he's still part-time ROH) and Moose and Michael Bennett have both been given better opportunities in TNA instead of working the same six man tag on every major show.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I have no idea how contracts work for Ring of Honor so I could be wrong in regards to what I am about to say. Are ROH contracts P.P.A. or are they written?</p><p> </p><p> I always assumed they were P.P.A. and if that is the case I wonder if they are leery about pushing workers because they never know who is going to up and leave them for a better offer. I mean Kenny King made them look like a bush league promotion when he left them for TNA. Now if the workers are under written agreements then you are absolutely right, they are doing a terrible job of elevating talent.</p>

[Mootinie]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BHK1978" data-cite="BHK1978" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I have no idea how contracts work for Ring of Honor so I could be wrong in regards to what I am about to say. Are ROH contracts P.P.A. or are they written?<p> </p><p> I always assumed they were P.P.A. and if that is the case I wonder if they are leery about pushing workers because they never know who is going to up and leave them for a better offer. I mean Kenny King made them look like a bush league promotion when he left them for TNA. Now if the workers are under written agreements then you are absolutely right, they are doing a terrible job of elevating talent.</p></div></blockquote><p> Well, the day that Kenny King won the tag titles with Rhett Titus, his contract expired. ROH didn't do a good enough job of convincing him to stay so he signed with TNA and violated his verbal agreement with ROH.</p><p> </p><p> Now I don't know whether the talent is paid guaranteed money or paid based on dates worked but I do know that talent signed to ROH cannot field offers from TNA or WWE. I'm not sure if that applies to your lower card guys like Lio Rush but it definitely applies to the likes of Jay Lethal, The Young Bucks and reDRagon.</p>

[BHK1978]

<p>I went to the PPV tonight. It was a pretty good show. The main event was awesome and there were some other matches that were pretty good. For the life of me I do not understand why the Young Bucks and the Bullet Club are so over but they are. Dalton Castle was beyond over as well, which I fully understand because Dalton Castle is awesome. Him and Colt did some really good comedy spots in their match tonight.</p><p> </p><p>

Though as others have said here, a lot of the homegrown talent is just not that exciting to watch.</p><p> </p><p>

Also, screw you ROH for starting a show at 9:00 pm on the east coast. Why would they do that? It was two in the morning by the time I got home.</p>

[cappyboy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BHK1978" data-cite="BHK1978" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26106" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> Though as others have said here, a lot of the homegrown talent is just not that exciting to watch.</p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It's not that they aren't exciting to watch. It's that I want to be the judge of that and RoH won't let me. They don't seem to be the least bit interested building guys like Tim Hughes, Lio Rush or Donavon Dijak the way they did an Adam Cole. A Michael Elgin. A Matt Taven. A War Machine. I'd much rather see Evans & Hughes take on Silas Young & The Beer City Bruiser on TV than I would Noriyori Sanda v Hiroshi Naitoyoshi v Jay Lethal. I know who all four of the tag in the tag match are and have at least a general idea why I should care about them. The New Japan guys may have more talent in their hands than Evans, Hughes, Young and Bruiser as a collective but they are strangers to me. </p><p> </p><p> Heck, I just deleted by scheduled recording of RoH from by DVR over this. They can have me back in 2017 for Top Prospect. Whether the actual result ends up having meaning or not. See Rush, Lio. See Dijak, Donavon. Even when the tourney means little after its over, it still generates some darn fun matches and introduces new blood to you the right way.</p>

[Rone Rivendale]

<p>When Jimmy Jacobs and Tyler Black were a regular tag team/stable mates, I thought Jacobs was the bonafied megastar in the making and Black was a total dud.</p><p> </p><p>

I think giving the talent time to develop before making a judgement is best. <img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

[Big Roguey]

I see ROH have lost ACH. Worrying track record of talent they're letting slip through their fingers these days. Ciampa, Alexander, ACH. Almost lost Big Mike too before he changed his mind. Lio Rush's Twitter seems to indicate he'll be gone soon-ish unless he was just bored and playing folk on Twitter.

[cappyboy]

I see ROH have lost ACH. Worrying track record of talent they're letting slip through their fingers these days. Ciampa, Alexander, ACH. Almost lost Big Mike too before he changed his mind. Lio Rush's Twitter seems to indicate he'll be gone soon-ish unless he was just bored and playing folk on Twitter.

 

Couldn't blame Rush if he does bail. Top Prospect victory hasn't meant nearly as much as it should the last couple years. But hearing ACH is bailing does surprise me. For all their reluctance to promote younger guys they have in house, he really seems to have gotten a lot of backing from RoH brass. It's really felt like someone had a proverbial hard-on for ACH at Corporate the way he's managed to stay visible while New Japan chews scenery. If they can't keep him, who going to carry the water of their future?

[The Final Countdown]

I see ROH have lost ACH. Worrying track record of talent they're letting slip through their fingers these days. Ciampa, Alexander, ACH. Almost lost Big Mike too before he changed his mind. Lio Rush's Twitter seems to indicate he'll be gone soon-ish unless he was just bored and playing folk on Twitter.

They kinda sorta lost Big Mike too. I mean he's still there, but at this point he's full-time with New Japan and only turns up in ROH sparingly.

 

They really have horribly mishandled the development of new talent in the last several years. This is a far cry from the company where Danielson, Joe, Punk, etc cut their teeth.