Official NFL Discussion Thread

[jwt13]

im not saying he is better than mcnabb im just say how is any QB supposed to do good with an O-Line like we have. I do think if we get a better line next year we might win the division because we have a good young core of recivers two good tight ends and depending on how they perform a really good RB group

[darthsiddus2]

Mcnaab can still run. He won't need a good O-line for that.

[GatorBait19]

Oh and here's why Haynesworth's contract isn't a problem for the Lions. It's not that big a contract anymore.

 

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Could-Skins-add-Portis-to-a-Haynesworth-deal.html

 

Yeah I saw, 16 mill for the next three years, but any deal between the Lions and Skins wont involve the 2nd pick (in my point of view). he doesn't want to be there, and whether skins want to admit it or not, they don't want him anymore, if they did, he'd never been mentioned in the trade.

 

He doesn't want to conform to their new system, be put on the block. I see they trying to move him still

 

Also, yes Trent Dilfer manged games well for teams, but I also remember him giving the ball up to the other team to much. Which is why the Bucs didn't want him back (factored with the fact King came on the scene) and he never had an arm like Jason.

 

I still think Jason can be a very good QB in this league (McNabb like, no) but still a good QB. Has a nice arm, doesn't turn it over much. His stats have improved every year and I believe he has had 3 different Coors and Head Coaches, on to his fourth Coor and 3 Head Coach, but he's still improved.

 

He had a lousy run game last year and a coach who just seemed out of place at times.

 

I think the best move for him is to be traded, maybe like Vikes, Raiders (wouldn't be the smartest), Bills (could work, #1 WR in Evans, two good running backs) it could be a good fit, Panthers (would be the perfect fit to me, two very talented RB's, A legit #1 WR, and he would be counted on to mange a good game)

[Slagaholic]

Jason Campbell is a good QB, he's just been screwed by Daniel Snyder and last year the offensive line was basically Arena League players.

[CQI13]

I never saw anything in Campbell at the pro level. Decent college QB.

[Remianen]

I've got a couple questions that should bring out the opinions.

 

First, name the best NFL player of all time and why you think so.

 

Second, name your top five all time at any position (if you pick QB, RB, or WR, you're takin' the easy way out ) and why.

 

Had a rather heated discussion with some friends on this tonight so I'm interested in seeing what others think. I'll start.

 

GOAT: Deion Sanders. The reason is simple. He might be the only player in league history to be the primary difference maker in winning a championship (proven twice). Adding him to even a mediocre defense, made that defense top 5, instantly. He was, hands down, the single greatest impact player ever. True, part of the reason is because he played in multiple phases of the game but a difference maker makes a difference in any and every way he can.

 

My top 5 all time at the position that's near and dear to my heart. Cornerback.

 

1. Deion Sanders - the player who defined the term 'shutdown corner'

2. Mel Blount - I have watched so much film of this guy over the years. Mel was just outright nasty and I loved that.

3. Herb Adderley - The thinking man's corner and another one who loved to lower the boom on receivers.

4. Willie Brown - OH MY GOD. He had this thing where he would bait quarterbacks by laying off receivers on an outside release and when they tried to hit the receiver on an out pattern, he would jump it and pick it many times. The most famous example was probably in the Super Bowl but Tarkenton was not the only QB to fall victim to it (not by a longshot)

5. Ronnie Lott - Man, I idolized this guy. One year in football camp, they made us wear numbers that fit the NFL numbering rules and I immediately asked for 42 (since I couldn't have my regular #2). The hits he delivered on receivers made his later move to safety a natural progression. But he covered like a second skin and was a sure tackler.

 

I admit, even though I tend to only like 'smash you in the mouth' corners, I can't deny Deion's impact. When I was a kid, I didn't quite understand it when Blount told me "If the receiver catches the ball, make him question his decision" but by the time I got to high school, it made perfect sense. These guys were all so cerebral but also physical, they really made it seem like they wanted to kill the opposing team (which is awesome!).

[GatorBait19]

GOAT

 

Barry Sanders; Dion was great no lie, but this man was able to make the Lions still a scary team to play, in 14 games in 1997 rushed for 2000 yards, and I don't ever remember that O-line being considered a great O-line, and he had a career 5.0 avg

 

D-End- Deacon Jones; this man was a beast, started before sacks were ever recorded and has been said to have had 26 in one season before it became official and would have had 173 overall in only 14 season, the man was extremely quick and would be considered today a DE/LB hybrid

 

DT- Warren Sapp; a freak when it came to the game, he could take on blockers and still get to the QB, was quick for his size and just a force all around

 

TE- Shannon Sharpe; he changed what the position of TE is in today's game, quick, moved well, and had size

 

WR- Jerry; a man among boys, Jerry changed the way people look at small schools as well as WR, wasn't always the best athlete on the field, but he played with his head, ran good crisp routes, and hand sticky fingers

 

LT- Orlando Pace; has fallen off in recent years, but the man was dominate during in prime; anchored the best offense in the NFL and shut down some of the best DE

[GatorBait19]

Jason Campbell is a good QB, he's just been screwed by Daniel Snyder and last year the offensive line was basically Arena League players.

 

that is the only thing I can disagree with

 

even though I believe Campbell can still be a good solid QB (like a Delhome before the injury) he at times hasn't grasped things, yes it sucks to change systems and Coaches every year but if he wants to be elite status he needs to put in the work for it.

 

now I could be wrong about this because I don't follow the Skins, but I have read he doesn't always have the best work eithic, the reason I believe QB's like Sanchez and Freeman will do well in this league is because of the time they have been putting in to this offseason. All I ever read about is how they are both at the offices working with game film, doing drills and working with their WR to get timing

 

you can have all the skills in the world but, if you don't put the effort foward (Charles Rogers, J. Russell, and Chad Jackson) it doesn't mean you will work out in this league

[CQI13]

But also, if he was "great", chances are they would have won more games, and he wouldn't be on his nth coach/OC.

[GatorBait19]

But also, if he was "great", chances are they would have won more games, and he wouldn't be on his nth coach/OC.

 

I said good, and also his first coach retired, then Dan didn't get the coach he truly wanted and settled for Zorn, now he's got a good coach.

 

But a QB can't always win you every game, look at brees, he is a great QB and finally won the SB last year, why, because they improved the running game and defense

 

Manning couldn't win one because his defense sucked, finally they became good and he won one

 

Farve's only SB win was on a great defense as well.

 

Just because you're a great QB doesn't mean you'll win a SB or games, you need a defense to help you as well, hell avg QB (Dilfer, Joe Namath, Terry Bradshaw, Mark Rypien) can win SB with a great D

 

and yes, Joe Namath and Terry Bradshaw are hall of famers but there stats point out that the were avg and Namath below avg. they were good game mangers and Joe is most famous for being so flashy

[Remianen]

But also, if he was "great", chances are they would have won more games, and he wouldn't be on his nth coach/OC.

 

As I said, Campbell is way too mechanical to be really good. If you watch him, it's like trying to dance using those paper mats with the little footprints to teach you the steps. You watch him going through his progressions and you SEE him going through his progressions. You can tell who option #1, 2, 3, and 4 are and who his outlet is simply by watching his eyes. He puts all the pressure on getting open onto his receivers. Most people will say it's up to the receivers to get open and that's true. But the elite quarterbacks help their receivers by throwing the defense off.

 

When you see a linebacker drop into coverage, you see him watching the quarterback to try to gauge where the ball is going. The better quarterbacks look off their receivers (Peyton even reverses his progression looks - going from 5 to 1 visually) which can help immensely. When you have safeties leaning in the wrong direction, that makes running deep patterns (especially) a ton easier. Relying on blown coverages can work but creating blown coverages is often what separates the 'game managers' from the playmakers. Campbell hasn't done that and I don't think he can do that.

 

If you look at any of the Colts' games where Dallas Clark (who isn't unknown to defenses) catches a ball in wide open space, look at how that happened. Where were the linebackers? Where were the safeties? WHY were they where they were? If Peyton's looking down the field, the safeties are going to drop back anticipating a possible medium to long route and one linebacker is going to stay at home to watch Addai or Brown in case they release. The other linebacker(s) are going to drop to try to cover the medium zone but they're going to be watching the quarterback to get a jump on where the ball is going (and all it takes is a pump fake to get them moving in the wrong direction). That leaves a large soft area for Clark to curl or post into. All that simply because the quarterback misdirected the defense. Jason Campbell doesn't do that. He's all 1, 2, 3, get rid of the ball. That's how they teach it, true, but mechanical quarterbacks typically don't become franchise icons.

[Condors]

Remianen - respect your opinion but disagree about Deion Sanders. I saw him take himself out of running plays. You can't be the greatest of all time if your not going to try to make a non highlight play. He is probally the most gifted corner to ever play the game but I would take my chances with a Troy Vincent type who may not be quite as flashy but will make all the plays and tackle a running back going outside both guys where popular team leaders. Have no disagreement with any of the other guys although with you liking the physical corners no mention of "Nightrain" Lane who is probally the most famous of them.

 

GOAT-Jerry Rice. You can have heated debates at pretty much every other postion. I don't think anyone is going to deny Rice. The guy made TO sitdown and shutup and know his role. His work ethic, his big plays the guy was the complete package.

 

TOP 5 linebackers

 

1-LT ummm he really changed the postion and caused havoc and personal changes to teams he played against. The Eagles would play with 2 blocking backs (Byars and Tony) to try to save Randal and pretty much put the deep pass out of the playbook unless Randal scrambled away from him.

 

2-Jack Lambert again caused havoc and was a force demoralizing to the oppents. If someone wants to argue that he is number 1 i won't really disagree that much about it.

 

3-Dick Butkus again a total intimidater. Running backs didn't send this guy christmas cards. Not the sideline to sideline guys that Lambert and LT were but he brought serious intensity to the middle of the field.

 

4-Mike Singletary I think he came from the same mold as Butkus. Look at them eyes he is going to kill someone. Think he holds the record for cracking his helment.

 

5-Even if Ray Lewis retires today he belongs on the list imho. The only knock on him is when he didn't have quality DT's his game was way off. All the guys above him had some quality DT in front of them too. Inspirational leader and goes sideline to sideline. Makes alot of big plays.

 

I played middle linebacker so i may be a little partial to the guys in the middle. TBH i am sure i forgot someone that is deserving and there are guys before my time that I won't disagree with. My dad would have a fit that Concrete Charlie isn't on the list.

[CQI13]

Santonio Holmes to the Jets for a 5th. Bargain on the field. Not so sure about off the field.

[GatorBait19]

this was interesting to me

 

1) the Rooney family had grown tired of Holmes and his inability to become that number 1 threat after showing flashes (granted had a nice year this year, but I still see Ward as the number 1 guy on that team) and should be easily replaced by Wallace

 

2) He was entering the last year of his contract and they probably weren't going to sign him anyways (Plaxico, Randle'l) so they got something in return for him

 

3) the deal was done within 24 hours and they only got a 5th, even with the looming off field issues, the Rooney family was sending a message to the steelers. We aren't going to let you run loose and hurt this teams image

 

 

I personally like the Steelers, I think they are a smart org. that does things the right way (let's players walk, build through the draft). I hope Big Ben gets some type of punishment, because I understand you're young and famous but this is the second time in two years something like this has come against you.

 

One of the favorite things I ever read about a player was back in 1999, it was about Michael Jordan and talked about how when he would be in another city he would go to his hotel room, lock his door and not come out till the day of the game/practice. team officals would gather his food.

 

Jordan understood what it meant to be famous and make millions, it meant you painted a target on your back for stupid things to be brought against you

[CQI13]

That's why he didn't get caught with a porn star? I guess she wasn't at the time, but I thought he was married regardless. And then there's the gambling scandal. He had his fair share of stupid things. I would like to see Goodell set a punishment on Big Ben if only based on stupidity alone.

[Imarevenant]

GOAT: I’ll have to put my vote in for Lawrence Taylor. He changed the game both defensively and offensively. The way he was able to blitz and put pressure on the QB was something that wasn’t done from the LB position until he came around. He was the one that started chopping the ball out of the QB’s hand instead of just tackling them as well. Because of him offenses had no choice but to change the way they did things, from the H-back to actually tasking Guards and Tackles to picking up a Linebacker. Hell, he changed what teams wanted in the prototypical Left Tackle too. The well over 300 pound monstrosities like Bubba Paris were no longer good enough, a leaner more agile tackle, capable of actually getting in front of LB’s with the speed of Taylor became the benchmark.

 

My top 5 at the position of my choice:

 

Offensive Tackle –

 

1. Anthony Munoz- he’s that lean, agile left tackle I was talking about. He was quick, agile, and strong enough to shut down the best DE’s in the league. There was just an aura around him as a pass blocker, his dominance was just unreal.

2. Jackie Slater- if you were running behind Jackie Slater chances are you were getting 1,000 yards that season. Just a fearsome run blocker.

3. Walter Jones- a dominant pass and run blocker. Went on a 2-year stretch where he didn’t give up a single sack. Seattle is going to have a real hard time replacing Jones.

4. Art Shell- it’s hard to imagine that the clueless drone that once roamed the Raiders sideline as their head coach was once the best Left Tackle in the game of football. But seriously Shell and guard Gene Upshaw completely locked down the left side of the line for very very good Raiders teams in the 70’s. Hell, he was the leader of the 76 Raiders line, that might have been the greatest O Line ever assembled.

5. Johnathan Odgen- another dominating pass blocker. I just don’t think he had as quite an intimidating presence as Munoz; but he was able to shut down opposing DE’s just the same.

[GatorBait19]

That's why he didn't get caught with a porn star? I guess she wasn't at the time, but I thought he was married regardless. And then there's the gambling scandal. He had his fair share of stupid things. I would like to see Goodell set a punishment on Big Ben if only based on stupidity alone.

 

Gambling is something he brought on himself, the pornstar is w.e, who wouldn't want a pornstar

[CQI13]

I'm assuming his wife? Anyway...way off topic.

 

As for GOAT? Whoever leads my fantasy team to its first championship.

[Remianen]

Remianen - respect your opinion but disagree about Deion Sanders. I saw him take himself out of running plays. You can't be the greatest of all time if your not going to try to make a non highlight play. He is probally the most gifted corner to ever play the game but I would take my chances with a Troy Vincent type who may not be quite as flashy but will make all the plays and tackle a running back going outside both guys where popular team leaders.

 

I guess it comes down to what you value. Some coaches want their defensive backs to be good in run support and such. Most coaches would give their firstborn to have defensive backs who turn your defense into half an offense. I'm not saying Troy Vincent wasn't good or great, but teams didn't scheme in two phases of their gameplan specifically to neutralize Troy Vincent. Troy Vincent didn't make the person playing on the opposite side of the field better and richer (INTs make DBs money and every CB who played opposite Deion, not to mention the safeties, performed "over their heads").

 

As I said, his game didn't quite jibe with my preferences (I liked sticking my nose in there, as my other choices would illustrate). However, he did everything his position called for, better than anyone before him or since. It's like saying LT wasn't the greatest LB of all time because he didn't do well in coverage. Coverage wasn't his primary responsibility.

 

And 'famous' doesn't denote 'greatest'. Dick Lane was very good (especially as a ballhawk), but I could name a dozen CBs who were better overall. Including the dude who's a decent defensive coordinator for the Steelers nowadays.

 

That's why he didn't get caught with a porn star? I guess she wasn't at the time, but I thought he was married regardless. And then there's the gambling scandal. He had his fair share of stupid things. I would like to see Goodell set a punishment on Big Ben if only based on stupidity alone.

 

There was no gambling scandal. People, by and large, are stupid. When you're making $100 million a year, so what if you like playing blackjack or poker or betting $100,000 a hole on the golf course? If Stewart Mankins, newbie hedge fund manager did it, no one would care (who the hell is Stewart Mankins? people would say). But because it's Michael Jordan, people want to act like he shot their puppy. This is nothing like what Ben & Holmes are dealing with. Jordan was never accused of assaulting someone (especially not sexually assaulting them). He was never charged with battery of any kind. Yes, he had a few infidelities but Juanita's PAID so who cares? Most women wouldn't be too aggrieved if they got almost $170 million (along with various sundry properties and the like) for their troubles. Hi Vanessa, enjoying the purple diamond, are ya?

 

Holmes for a 5th round pick is going to come back to haunt the Steelers. They stacked motivation on top of motivation (walk year + insulting opinion of his value = a dude who might have a breakout year). It was a huge boon for the Jets though. There is little chance they'd land as valuable a player from the draft at that position.

 

I do agree that these guys need to learn to protect themselves better though. Morons. Fame, money, and power attract women like flies to (poop). That isn't news, they have 5 seminars at the rookie symposium on just that ONE area. You'd think with the appearance schedules sponsors/endorsers make them keep, they'd have more than enough nightlife.

 

Oh, and Jason Campbell signed his tender and is "hopeful for a trade". TO WHERE?!? No one wants your robotic arse! Anybody who might want him, has designs on a complete floor to ceiling rebuilding (via the draft) so bringing him in for anything better than a single 5th rounder (or later) would be pointless. That is, unless they're angling to get a shot at Jake Locker next year.

 

Oh, and as a Broncos fan, I'm hoping they can squeeze two firsts out of the some suc....errr, astute team for Brandon Marshall. Or at least a first and third (improving to first with conditions).

[The Final Countdown]

That'd be TREMENDOUS if they got two firsts for Marshall, but I doubt it. First and a third is possible, though, and would still be nice value for the Broncos IMO.

[GatorBait19]

I guess it comes down to what you value. Some coaches want their defensive backs to be good in run support and such. Most coaches would give their firstborn to have defensive backs who turn your defense into half an offense. I'm not saying Troy Vincent wasn't good or great, but teams didn't scheme in two phases of their gameplan specifically to neutralize Troy Vincent. Troy Vincent didn't make the person playing on the opposite side of the field better and richer (INTs make DBs money and every CB who played opposite Deion, not to mention the safeties, performed "over their heads").

 

As I said, his game didn't quite jibe with my preferences (I liked sticking my nose in there, as my other choices would illustrate). However, he did everything his position called for, better than anyone before him or since. It's like saying LT wasn't the greatest LB of all time because he didn't do well in coverage. Coverage wasn't his primary responsibility.

 

And 'famous' doesn't denote 'greatest'. Dick Lane was very good (especially as a ballhawk), but I could name a dozen CBs who were better overall. Including the dude who's a decent defensive coordinator for the Steelers nowadays.

 

 

 

There was no gambling scandal. People, by and large, are stupid. When you're making $100 million a year, so what if you like playing blackjack or poker or betting $100,000 a hole on the golf course? If Stewart Mankins, newbie hedge fund manager did it, no one would care (who the hell is Stewart Mankins? people would say). But because it's Michael Jordan, people want to act like he shot their puppy. This is nothing like what Ben & Holmes are dealing with. Jordan was never accused of assaulting someone (especially not sexually assaulting them). He was never charged with battery of any kind. Yes, he had a few infidelities but Juanita's PAID so who cares? Most women wouldn't be too aggrieved if they got almost $170 million (along with various sundry properties and the like) for their troubles. Hi Vanessa, enjoying the purple diamond, are ya?

 

Holmes for a 5th round pick is going to come back to haunt the Steelers. They stacked motivation on top of motivation (walk year + insulting opinion of his value = a dude who might have a breakout year). It was a huge boon for the Jets though. There is little chance they'd land as valuable a player from the draft at that position.

 

I do agree that these guys need to learn to protect themselves better though. Morons. Fame, money, and power attract women like flies to (poop). That isn't news, they have 5 seminars at the rookie symposium on just that ONE area. You'd think with the appearance schedules sponsors/endorsers make them keep, they'd have more than enough nightlife.

 

Oh, and Jason Campbell signed his tender and is "hopeful for a trade". TO WHERE?!? No one wants your robotic arse! Anybody who might want him, has designs on a complete floor to ceiling rebuilding (via the draft) so bringing him in for anything better than a single 5th rounder (or later) would be pointless. That is, unless they're angling to get a shot at Jake Locker next year.

 

Oh, and as a Broncos fan, I'm hoping they can squeeze two firsts out of the some suc....errr, astute team for Brandon Marshall. Or at least a first and third (improving to first with conditions).

 

what are break out numbers to you?

[Stennick]

WHOA!

 

So Shandid Khan an Urbana IL guy (a few hours away from STL) had entered into an ageement pending his finances to buy 60 percent of the team that Chip and Linda inherited from their mother Georgia. Well Stan Kroenke who is a Denver NBA and NHL owner also of fame for double booking his venue for the NBA playoffs and the WWE RAW in which Vince openly mocked him for. He's the owner of the other 40 perecent. Over the last 60 days Stan has flown Khan out to Denver to attend NHL and NBA games, they've been to each other homes. It looked like Stan was bonding with the future majority owner of the Rams.

 

Well league rule states that other owners have sixty days to declare their intentions after another bid to buy the team has been made. League rules also state that you CAN NOT own another sports team in another city and be the majority owner of an NFL Franchise. A few weeks ago Goodell had said that he would not be willing to change these rules for Kroenke. Long story short today Kroenke announced his intention to buy the 60 percent of the Rams that Khan had been trying to buy.

 

So now if Goodell holds true to his world which he almost has to if he wants to maintain the "exclusive" feel of the NFL owners. Can you imagine how many other sports owners would throw their hat into the ring? At any rate so either Goodell makes special treatment for Stan which is highly unlikely. Or Kroenke puts his Denver teams up for sale. If he does that how long does he get to sell his teams? The other rumor popping up is that Stan's son may "buy" the other teams from Stan allowing him to then buy the Rams. This could get complicated just when it looked like we were going to get involved, secure ownership for the first time in a very long time things seem to be an even bigger mess.

 

Everyone in the ST. Louis media thought Khan being paraded around Denver by STan was Stans way of showing support for Khan, in reality it was his way to get close and decide if he wanted to pull the rug out from under him. Very interesting business that could effect a lot more than just the Rams is going under way here.

[GatorBait19]

WHOA!

 

So Shandid Khan an Urbana IL guy (a few hours away from STL) had entered into an ageement pending his finances to buy 60 percent of the team that Chip and Linda inherited from their mother Georgia. Well Stan Kroenke who is a Denver NBA and NHL owner also of fame for double booking his venue for the NBA playoffs and the WWE RAW in which Vince openly mocked him for. He's the owner of the other 40 perecent. Over the last 60 days Stan has flown Khan out to Denver to attend NHL and NBA games, they've been to each other homes. It looked like Stan was bonding with the future majority owner of the Rams.

 

Well league rule states that other owners have sixty days to declare their intentions after another bid to buy the team has been made. League rules also state that you CAN NOT own another sports team in another city and be the majority owner of an NFL Franchise. A few weeks ago Goodell had said that he would not be willing to change these rules for Kroenke. Long story short today Kroenke announced his intention to buy the 60 percent of the Rams that Khan had been trying to buy.

 

So now if Goodell holds true to his world which he almost has to if he wants to maintain the "exclusive" feel of the NFL owners. Can you imagine how many other sports owners would throw their hat into the ring? At any rate so either Goodell makes special treatment for Stan which is highly unlikely. Or Kroenke puts his Denver teams up for sale. If he does that how long does he get to sell his teams? The other rumor popping up is that Stan's son may "buy" the other teams from Stan allowing him to then buy the Rams. This could get complicated just when it looked like we were going to get involved, secure ownership for the first time in a very long time things seem to be an even bigger mess.

 

Everyone in the ST. Louis media thought Khan being paraded around Denver by STan was Stans way of showing support for Khan, in reality it was his way to get close and decide if he wanted to pull the rug out from under him. Very interesting business that could effect a lot more than just the Rams is going under way here.

 

cough, id like to introduce you to Paul Allen (owner of the Seahawks, and Portland Trail Blazers), Clark Hunt (Chiefs as well as the, Columbus Crew), Randy Lerner (Browns and Aston Villa), Malcom Glazer (Bucs and Manchester United) these men all own teams in other leagues not in the city that their NFL team resides in.

[Stennick]

I don't know the logistics of the rule but I'm quite certain you can't be the primary owner of both an NFL franchise and another. You can be a MINORITY in one or the other but not the MAJORITY in both. Kroenke would be the majority in both if he were to take over the Rams. Also it might only be MLB, NBA, NHL I don't think over seas or soccer teams count but I might be wrong in that regard to. Which means that Kroenke who also has a bid to buy an English football team would be even more interesting.

[GatorBait19]

All the owners I gave you are majority in each team they own.

 

so I wish someone could clarify this for us