The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[Daffanka]

I've never been particularly bothered with steroids since you'd be stupid not to do them in MMA but if he got caught then he's kind of an idiot. Hopefully it's some mistake.

 

If it's true then it would bring down his entire facade about working hard and any trash talk would be refuted with "well at least I didn't pop roids."

 

Man.

 

Also, looks like Arlovski will indeed be involved in the 'WGP Final 16' event in Korea, although he won't be part of the tournament itself, instead competing in a superfight.

 

Sergei Kharitonov? And if so...why not just have them compete in an MMA fight? I guess the thought process behind it is that if one of them wins in a spectacular way, they could be useful as alternates for the WGP Finals.

 

Didn't you hear Joe Rogan say that Arlovski has K-1 level striking?!? Obviously he will tear through the entire tournament.

[brashleyholland]

Also, looks like Arlovski will indeed be involved in the 'WGP Final 16' event in Korea, although he won't be part of the tournament itself, instead competing in a superfight.

 

 

Ok, K-1 have now made an official announcement. Despite 'The Voice's claims to the contrary, it now looks like AA *WILL* be in the Final 16, matched up with Raul Catinas (notable KO wins over Carter Williams and Stefan Leko). He's very... unpolished, but hits like a truck.

 

Quite interested to see how this goes down. Also of note from the announcement, Hari and Bonjasky are now officially out, confirming a couple of rumours that have been floating around.

[CoutureLegend]

Chael Sonnen

 

Not sure if this has been discussed on here but the California State Athletic Commission have revealed that Chael Sonnen tested positive for Performance Enhancing Drugs during post-fight screening at UFC 117.

 

Considering the amount of talking he did & has done since this seems almost impossible to be true but hell he's in big trouble, looking at a 1 year suspension.

[SaySo]

Wow, Chael Sonnen just gave his enemies ammo.

[brashleyholland]

Not sure if this has been discussed on here but the California State Athletic Commission have revealed that Chael Sonnen tested positive for Performance Enhancing Drugs during post-fight screening at UFC 117....

 

 

 

So Sonnen has been busted for PEDs. Wow.

 

If he appeals successfully, then the proposed January rematch with Silva should be able to go ahead...it depends when the hearings are set etc. It's worth noting that a fighter successfully appealing a positive drug test is historically a rare occurrence.

 

Secondly, if he appeals unsuccessfully, or simply doesn't appeal, then he'll be looking at a year out, so August 7th, 2011. Sean Sherk appealed the length of his suspension and had it reduced to six months. That would put Sonnen's suspension at 7th of Feb. Either way, it kills the momentum for Silva Sonnen 2.

 

Regardless, I'd be highly surprised if the instant rematch goes ahead now. I guess we'll see for certain what's more important to the UFC; integrity or profit. I hope it's the former.

 

 

Considering the amount of talking he did & has done since this seems almost impossible to be true

 

It's true. Once you've been notified it means that they've got a positive result on your A and B samples. Obviously, there is the possibility that the sample was tainted; other athletes have called the testing methods into question. Unfortunately they have never got anything overturned, and in Josh Barnett's case, has been caught a number of times by different labs.

 

PED's are very, very prevalent in MMA. It's true what people say; passing a drug test is essentially passing an IQ test - unfortunately Sonnen wasn't smart enough not to get caught.

[The Shape]

I Wasn't Aware of their apparent prevalence but reading about this really upset me, tainted what to this point has been my favourite fight I've watched and probably ruining a rematch i was already looking forward to xD so is pretty much every guy on then? And is avoiding being caught just a matter of having them out your system by test date?

[Fantabulous]

Clearly, some Hispanic got tested instead.

[Daffanka]

so is pretty much every guy on then? And is avoiding being caught just a matter of having them out your system by test date?

 

You'd be stupid not to do them and you'd have to be really stupid to be caught.

 

What were you doing Sonnen

[The Bus]

You'd be stupid not to do them and you'd have to be really stupid to be caught.

 

What were you doing Sonnen

 

I really don't understand that idea of being stupid not to use illegal drugs. Those have possible/probable side effects on user's health. Why risk your health and life overall for the sake of a little better success in a sport? Using illegal drugs my is IMO stupidity and to top it off in MMA you really must be a total idiot to get caught as the testing, as far as I know, is conducted only alongside scheduled fights.

[Fantabulous]

Why risk your health and life overall for the sake of a little better success in a sport?

For the difference between a $2,000 pay-off and a $250,000 pay-off.

[Daffanka]

I really don't understand that idea of being stupid not to use illegal drugs. Those have possible/probable side effects on user's health. Why risk your health and life overall for the sake of a little better success in a sport? Using illegal drugs my is IMO stupidity and to top it off in MMA you really must be a total idiot to get caught as the testing, as far as I know, is conducted only alongside scheduled fights.

 

Properly used steroids are not at all dangerous when used by adult men.

 

They help you train harder and they help you recover from injuries of varying degrees. If you had a choice between taking some shots to get over an injury from training and making a fight or skipping the fight and a payday, it's pretty obvious what you would do.

 

When every athlete in the world is using there's literally no moral implications of taking steroids.

[The Shape]

Properly used steroids are not at all dangerous when used by adult men.

 

They help you train harder and they help you recover from injuries of varying degrees. If you had a choice between taking some shots to get over an injury from training and making a fight or skipping the fight and a payday, it's pretty obvious what you would do.

 

When every athlete in the world is using there's literally no moral implications of taking steroids.

 

Moral,no, but public perception...

[Zoloftjunkie]

How is it not a moral issue when it is clearly against the rules? Just because you think everyone does them doesn't make it right. There is a risk to using roids even if you are a grown man. And on top of that it puts pressure on younger fighters and on kids to do them. I guess its ok to tell a 18 yr old fighter not to use them but let the 28 yr old have the advantage of them when they fight?

I have more respect for a fighter who goes out and does it the right way. You are not the true winner if you take short cuts and cheat. That way of thinking of anything to win, anything for the big bucks ruins the competitive spirit of sports. Whatever happend to having pride. When did values of honesty and integrity get so low? People trying to justify and codone cheating needs to reevaluate your own morals and standards.

[Daffanka]

How is it not a moral issue when it is clearly against the rules? Just because you think everyone does them doesn't make it right. There is a risk to using roids even if you are a grown man. And on top of that it puts pressure on younger fighters and on kids to do them. I guess its ok to tell a 18 yr old fighter not to use them but let the 28 yr old have the advantage of them when they fight?

I have more respect for a fighter who goes out and does it the right way. You are not the true winner if you take short cuts and cheat. That way of thinking of anything to win, anything for the big bucks ruins the competitive spirit of sports. Whatever happend to having pride. When did values of honesty and integrity get so low? People trying to justify and codone cheating needs to reevaluate your own morals and standards.

 

An 18 year old is an adult and steroids should be legal and would be safe if prescribed by a doctor and they've been prevalent since sports have existed. They're only illegal because of a few notable cases that could've been avoided with proper care are prescriptions.

 

Talking about honor and integrity is really pretty hilarious in an ultra competitive environment where you need every edge to stand out from the pack and every fight lost is another step further from the big leagues and making a proper living from fighting.

 

There's probably not a single high level MMA fighter not on steroids in some form.

 

Happy to help.

[Self]

I'm bummed out about the Chael Sonnen thing. I'm such a mark for the guy, to the point where I can't even get mad at him. I still really want to see him beat Anderson Silva's ass, but alas, it looks like it's not going to happen.

 

On a slightly connected note, I was super-into UFC a month ago, but for whatever reason, now I'm not. Sunrise, sunset I guess. I expect when the next big show comes up, with a card that interests me, I'll hop back onto the bandwagon.

 

P.S. Late slip, but I checked out the Sonnen Q&A where he called out GSP, Brock, and wrote a poem for Anderson Silva... So amazing. Steroids or not, I love Chael Sonnen.

[brashleyholland]

EPIC POST ALERT!!!! (Hopefully there is some interesting stuff in there though )

 

Saying that every top fighter in MMA is on PED or whatever is as wrong as saying that every top fighter isn't. The truth is that many of them will have, at some time, taken something.

 

Where it gets confusing is that in many cases, they will have done nothing wrong. Many 'PED's (and I'll just use that as a catch-all term for PEDs, roids, etc) are not illegal at all. As long as you have them prescribed, they're no more illegal than Aspirin. What they ARE, is on a banned substance list...you're not allowed to have them in your system WHEN YOU FIGHT. Because there is no year-round testing policy, what you do when you're not fighting is your own business.

 

What this means is that you can use certain things to help you recover from an injury for example. They might be prescribed by your doc, they might not. You've not done anything wrong. You can use Human Growth Hormone (HGH) which is not tested for. You've done nothing wrong. But, if you have these things, or traces of them, in your system on fight day, you have broken the rules.

 

If you fight primarily in Japan, Brazil or anywhere else without regulatory supervision, you can be jacked up on anything you want, because it's not against the rules to do so.

 

The issue is this; the advantages of using these things for a period of time can stay with an athlete for life. So essentially you can cheat for a couple of years, then never use so much as a tube of Deep Heat for the rest of your life, but your body will be in a condition it never could have reached naturally.

 

Another misconception is that PED's are some kind of magical talent juice...you can just half-ass it, drink a big glass of roids, and you're good to go. Again, you couldn't be further from the truth. If you're taking something that lets you train harder, for longer and recover quicker so you can do it more often...well, you actually have to train harder, longer and more often before it'll benefit you. It could be argued that those fighters are putting more work in than someone who isn't using.

 

If you're starting out in MMA, you can't afford the good stuff (and by that I mean things that will go undetected or masking/flushing agents), period. But then it doesn't matter as much if you miss your amateur fight or $200 payday pro fight because of a knock or niggling injury. There'll be another fight in a couple of weeks. If you're a pro depending on a $100,000 payday, knowing that you can only earn that kind of scratch twice, three times a year, you have a mortgage to pay, family to support, etc...all of a sudden it becomes a lot easier to reach for that bottle. Again, alot of the time there is nothing illegal about it either.

 

Add to that the chance that your opponent could be doing a similar thing - lets say 25% of upper level fighters are 'on something' (that's just a random number btw), that's still a big gamble to take when your career is on the line.

 

PED's are fine and not dangerous if used properly, under doctors instruction. Problems arise when you can walk into almost any gym anywhere in the world and get hold of ANYTHING, if you know the right guy. If people want to eradicate their use, then testing needs to be improved across the board. Urinalysis is the only test used at the moment...there are more ways to cheat a urinalysis than there are armbars at a Gracie family reunion.

[The Bus]

An 18 year old is an adult and steroids should be legal and would be safe if prescribed by a doctor and they've been prevalent since sports have existed. They're only illegal because of a few notable cases that could've been avoided with proper care are prescriptions.

 

Talking about honor and integrity is really pretty hilarious in an ultra competitive environment where you need every edge to stand out from the pack and every fight lost is another step further from the big leagues and making a proper living from fighting.

 

There's probably not a single high level MMA fighter not on steroids in some form.

 

Happy to help.

 

Steroids should be legal Let me guess, you're American? Those drugs should be used only when there is a medical need for them, not a cheated quick recovery from a injury or artificial boost to help train harder. Maybe those illegal drugs are illegal because of the risks? Human body isn't supposed to be able to withstand such strain what can be achieved with steroids and that might lead to serious health issues probably death.

 

It's funny that you state that everyone uses without any evidence, a couple of busted idiot wrestlers isn't sufficient evidence to support your nice little theory. Don't let reality come in to way of your theories...

[The Bus]

 

Saying that every top fighter in MMA is on PED or whatever is as wrong as saying that every top fighter isn't. The truth is that many of them will have, at some time, taken something.

 

Where it gets confusing is that in many cases, they will have done nothing wrong. Many 'PED's (and I'll just use that as a catch-all term for PEDs, roids, etc) are not illegal at all. As long as you have them prescribed, they're no more illegal than Aspirin. What they ARE, is on a banned substance list...you're not allowed to have them in your system WHEN YOU FIGHT. Because there is no year-round testing policy, what you do when you're not fighting is your own business.

 

Those are illegal in the training time, but they aren't tested. Well at least in each and every other sport in the world they are illegal also during training. What a great testing system...

 

What this means is that you can use certain things to help you recover from an injury for example. They might be prescribed by your doc, they might not. You've not done anything wrong. You can use Human Growth Hormone (HGH) which is not tested for. You've done nothing wrong. But, if you have these things, or traces of them, in your system on fight day, you have broken the rules.

 

That is true, but those should be prescribed only due to medical issues, i.e. lack of own testosterone production a'la Lionel Messi, not speedy recovery.

 

The issue is this; the advantages of using these things for a period of time can stay with an athlete for life. So essentially you can cheat for a couple of years, then never use so much as a tube of Deep Heat for the rest of your life, but your body will be in a condition it never could have reached naturally.

 

Another misconception is that PED's are some kind of magical talent juice...you can just half-ass it, drink a big glass of roids, and you're good to go. Again, you couldn't be further from the truth. If you're taking something that lets you train harder, for longer and recover quicker so you can do it more often...well, you actually have to train harder, longer and more often before it'll benefit you. It could be argued that those fighters are putting more work in than someone who isn't using.

 

First part was true, but as I stated before human body has it's limitations for a reason.

 

If you're starting out in MMA, you can't afford the good stuff (and by that I mean things that will go undetected or masking/flushing agents), period. But then it doesn't matter as much if you miss your amateur fight or $200 payday pro fight because of a knock or niggling injury. There'll be another fight in a couple of weeks. If you're a pro depending on a $100,000 payday, knowing that you can only earn that kind of scratch twice, three times a year, you have a mortgage to pay, family to support, etc...all of a sudden it becomes a lot easier to reach for that bottle. Again, alot of the time there is nothing illegal about it either.

 

Add to that the chance that your opponent could be doing a similar thing - lets say 25% of upper level fighters are 'on something' (that's just a random number btw), that's still a big gamble to take when your career is on the line.

 

That still doesn't make morally right. It's cheating as it's banned and the consequences are what they are if you get caught.

 

PED's are fine and not dangerous if used properly, under doctors instruction. Problems arise when you can walk into almost any gym anywhere in the world and get hold of ANYTHING, if you know the right guy. If people want to eradicate their use, then testing needs to be improved across the board. Urinalysis is the only test used at the moment...there are more ways to cheat a urinalysis than there are armbars at a Gracie family reunion.

 

Doctors have made an oath and by prescribing PED's "safely" for no medical issues they brake that oath, but **** sincerity for the sake of money like the fighters. Testing is always behind in the race against PED's, but there is a lot of effort put into it and hopefully even American pro sports will someday have a proper testing system across the board. NFL had to address medical issues as those footballer's tend to have somewhat lower average life span and MLB had such a widely reported issues. NHL is in the bush leagues as far I understand about their testing and I can't say anything about NBA as I don't know anything about them in this matter. MMA should really make those tests more profound and regular to make it more respectable and honest sport.

[brashleyholland]

Those are illegal in the training time, but they aren't tested. Well at least in each and every other sport in the world they are illegal also during training. What a great testing system...

 

Firstly, 'illegal' and 'on the banned substances list' are two very different things. Secondly, there is nothing from athletic commissions prohibiting an MMA fighter from taking something 'out of competition'. You're not allowed to have banned substances or drugs of abuse in your system immediately before or during a fight (hence samples are taken before and after). What you do in your 'off season' is none of their business.

 

You're right, the system is rubbish. It's akin to the police calling a known bank robber and saying "We've got information that a robbery is planned at your local bank, and we think you could be involved. We need you to come to the police station at 10 am on the 1st of October and we're going to search you. If we find a lock pick, you're going to prison." Assuming you leave your balaclava and swag bag at home, you're scott-free.

 

That is true, but those should be prescribed only due to medical issues, i.e. lack of own testosterone production a'la Lionel Messi, not speedy recovery.

 

Should, but aren't. Also, there are just as many items on the 'banned list' that are available over the counter, therefore no prescription is required.

 

 

First part was true, but as I stated before human body has it's limitations for a reason.

 

I never said it didn't. That doesn't stop people from taking a calculated risk. The UFC, for example, fly every single one of their fighters out annually for a seminar on the dangers of PEDs etc. If someone wants to play that game and can get away with it, where's the incentive to stop?

 

That still doesn't make morally right. It's cheating as it's banned and the consequences are what they are if you get caught.

 

I never said it did.

 

Doctors have made an oath and by prescribing PED's "safely" for no medical issues they brake that oath, but **** sincerity for the sake of money like the fighters.

 

The problem isn't exclusive to doctors. As I said, a lot of these things don't require prescriptions. It's also common practise for fighters to buy things online, bypassing the need for a doctor, or from a guy at the gym who does the importing for them.

 

Yes, there are doctor who will bend rules....but there are also genuine doctors who are duped by fighters.

 

MMA should really make those tests more profound and regular to make it more respectable and honest sport.

 

'MMA' isn't a regulatory body though...unlike most sports, there is no internationally recognised governing body to make things uniform. You're looking at over 50 different regulatory bodies in the US and Canada alone, all of which would need to pass an identical piece of legislation.

 

But that's the interesting question...if certain 'PED's were taken off the banned list and their use more closely regulated, you'd remove the 'cheating' and 'dishonesty' labels. Wouldn't that be better, if the fact is that people will continue to use them anyway?

[brashleyholland]

 

It's funny that you state that everyone uses without any evidence, a couple of busted idiot wrestlers isn't sufficient evidence to support your nice little theory. Don't let reality come in to way of your theories...

 

While I can't comment on what evidence he does or doesn't have, and I don't agree that 100% of people in MMA are using or have used, as someone who is very much involved in the MMA industry I can tell you that lots, and lots, and lots of people, many of whom you see on the big MMA shows week-in, week-out, use, or have used, items on the banned list.

 

It is very, very common.

[brashleyholland]

Ok, so as this news continues to trickle out it looks like Chael has been popped for a natural steroid.

 

This probably means that this was an over the counter supplement that contained something on the banned list. It won't make it any easier to appeal...ignorance is not an excuse etc. It should make it easier to get the suspension down to 6 months.

 

It's also worth noting that he hasn't been suspended or fined ($2,500, ha!) yet. He's got 26 days left to appeal. If he does, a hearing will then be scheduled where his case will be heard. This could take months...it's a safe bet to say that the July rematch is off, even if his appeal is successful.

 

In other news, Rico is out of his Bellator fight with Dave Herman. Talk about not being able to get a break.

[The Shape]

So does it take an appeal to get it down to 6 months? And if not couldn't he just accept that, wait till Spring and have the rematch then?

[Daffanka]

Let me guess, you're American? Those drugs should be used only when there is a medical need for them, not a cheated quick recovery from a injury or artificial boost to help train harder. Maybe those illegal drugs are illegal because of the risks? Human body isn't supposed to be able to withstand such strain what can be achieved with steroids and that might lead to serious health issues probably death.

 

Nope. Also please research these things before you make sweeping statements about how dangerous steroids are.

 

It's funny that you state that everyone uses without any evidence, a couple of busted idiot wrestlers isn't sufficient evidence to support your nice little theory. Don't let reality come in to way of your theories...

 

There is literally no reason not to do steroids if you're a high performing athlete. That's really all the proof you need.

[brashleyholland]

So does it take an appeal to get it down to 6 months? And if not couldn't he just accept that, wait till Spring and have the rematch then?

 

There has been a precedent set in California with fighters appealing a suspension and having the term reduced from 12 months to 6 months. Sean Sherk one example of this...James Toney is another. Note that both appealed and denied they had knowingly ingested a banned substance...neither actually provided any proof whatsoever that this was the case. Toney's appeal was particularly ridiculous, centring around the fact that people were 'out to get him' and he was 'set up'.

 

So you accept your suspension or chose not to appeal and you get 12 months. You appeal without any evidence and you get six. Nope, that's not a typo, it really is as stupid as it sounds.

[brashleyholland]

From Sherdog.com's latest on Sonnen-gate...

 

Dodd also informed Sherdog.com that the UFC, via vice-president Marc Ratner, was informed that an unnamed fighter was flagged for a positive test Saturday morning. He said Ratner confided that they were already aware of Sonnen’s impending suspension.

 

...VERY interesting.