The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[SaySo]

Apparently Ariel Helwani sent this;

 

@ekc and I just got an interview with The Undertaker that you will not believe. Worth staying up for. #ufc 121 (2 hours ago)

 

Stay tuned to @mmafighting for interviews with Cain, Dana, 'Taker, Lawlor, McGee, Hamill, Cormier, Roberts. (about a minute ago)

[Bigpapa42]

http://www.mmafighting.com/2010/10/24/wwes-undertaker-brock-lesnar-exchange-words-following-ufc-121/

 

Uh...Its just odd....

[ampulator]

I think they have past issues. I think Brock's a bit surprised to see Undertaker at the UFC.

[juggaloninjalee]

Undertaker staring at Brock... "You wanna go?"

 

That is just too funny. Now I am curious as to what that was about. Unless maybe Brock will do a return to WWE and throw down at Wrestlemania!!! Haha just playing.

 

Hopefully Brock trains with some top tier fighters next time and works on getting up off his back. They need to practice more with him on his back I feel. He just lays there.

[Daffanka]

Since you are experienced in some of this.. do you know any Judo or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? And if so, can give any insight on why Judo practioners don't do as well BJJ users? I always thought BJJ was developed from Judo, if my info is correct.

 

The short answer is that Judo is very dependent on the gi and BJJ isn't, and that Judo is missing several techniques that are absolutely key to be successful in MMA, namely double legs, single legs, knee taps and a whole lot of other leg based attacks.

 

Judo guys can be fairly decent at MMA if they combine their judo background with some single and double legs. Dong Hyun-Kim is a pretty good fighter and he's from a Judo background.

[Stennick]

With Taker saying 20 years ago he'd be all over MMA, The Rock saying if MMA was around after college he would have went into that, really makes you wonder where pro wrestling would be if MMA had taken off even ten years earlier than it had.

[Candyman]

With Taker saying 20 years ago he'd be all over MMA, The Rock saying if MMA was around after college he would have went into that, really makes you wonder where pro wrestling would be if MMA had taken off even ten years earlier than it had.

 

And it really makes you wonder where pro wrestling will be in ten years. The scary thing for wrestling is MMA is just going to keep growing. I think wrestling will survive, but the quality won't be the same.

 

Interesting interview with Undertaker...kinda weird seeing him be all normal(looked like his BikerTaker days). Kinda funny that he was talking about a fighter named Cain(Kane).

[SaySo]

What is the average (total annual) earnings for a MMA fighter? A non-UFC fighter? A UFC-fighter? And how much of that money goes to their training?

[TheKenwyne]

The short answer is that Judo is very dependent on the gi and BJJ isn't, and that Judo is missing several techniques that are absolutely key to be successful in MMA, namely double legs, single legs, knee taps and a whole lot of other leg based attacks.

 

Judo guys can be fairly decent at MMA if they combine their judo background with some single and double legs. Dong Hyun-Kim is a pretty good fighter and he's from a Judo background.

 

This is not strictly true. Most MMA BJJ players train no-gi submission wrestling which is a lot different from pure BJJ. And the main difference between (at least Gracie) jiu-jitsu and traditional Judo is the focus on the ground game and several key elements within: there is no pinning in BJJ so to win a match the most effective technique is to secure back mount and choking your opponent unconcious. Ne-waza Judo focuses on the pin while Gracie JJ relies on guardwork and passing to dominant positions/submissions. Judo practitioners often have poor guards and no clue how to pass an opponents guard.

[Anderz]

so... Shields cant cut down to 170 any more.. thats pretty apparent..

 

DIEGO is back.. that sweep / slam combination was epic.. good fight..

 

Brock does not like getting hit in the face.. if he didnt fricking run away and throw himself backwards in a dazed roll he wouldnt get himself dominated.. If he didnt freak out every time he got touched hed be so much better..

 

Cain was very impressive all the same.. he should breeze through Dos Santos/everyone else..

 

Dana's face = lol however

 

pretty darn good night of fights last night..

[Daffanka]

This is not strictly true. Most MMA BJJ players train no-gi submission wrestling which is a lot different from pure BJJ. And the main difference between (at least Gracie) jiu-jitsu and traditional Judo is the focus on the ground game and several key elements within: there is no pinning in BJJ so to win a match the most effective technique is to secure back mount and choking your opponent unconcious. Ne-waza Judo focuses on the pin while Gracie JJ relies on guardwork and passing to dominant positions/submissions. Judo practitioners often have poor guards and no clue how to pass an opponents guard.

 

The short version! I'm not well versed in Judo at all but I imagine that most Judo players with any aspirations towards MMA start to train BJJ fairly early in their careers.

[brashleyholland]

What is the average (total annual) earnings for a MMA fighter? A non-UFC fighter? A UFC-fighter? And how much of that money goes to their training?

 

That's a nearly impossible question to answer. The number doing the rounds for Brock, for example, is somewhere north of $5m, including his endorsements. He spends a lot on training, because he owns his own private gym and brings in top guys to train with.

 

If you go to the other end of the scale, most guys on small shows are fighting for hundreds, not thousands. At that level, sponsorships don't mean much. Many guys get paid a tiny nominal fee and rely on commission from ticket sales to make a couple of hundred. Extreme Brawl, a small UK promotion, takes this one step further; why you buy a ticket from there site, a dropdown box allows you to chose which fighter on the card you want to support, and they get a percentage of the ticket price. Very cool.

 

Training can be expensive, but most coaches will 'take the hit' so to speak for a good fighter while they're not making much money. The thinking behind it being that if you do sign a big contract and make money, they'll get a percentage of it and will reap the rewards when you make it big.

 

Endorsement deals are again massively varied. There's loads of good info out there if you google the 'Meathead' Mitrione situation from his last fight...his manager has given some good interviews where he talks about what a guy can make. Again, it depends on who you are, where you're fighting, if it's on TV PPV etc. Wrestlers can make more money for the patch on their but, based on the fact that they're going to spend 15 mins with it pointing at a camera while they're on top of someone. Seriously.

 

The fact is though, even in the UFC, fighters don't really make a living wage just from fighting. Most 'full-time' fighters teach classes, or do private 1-2-1 fighting/fitness sessions to make a living. Josh Barnett still teaches catch-wrestling at Erik Paulson's place. Shane Carwin and Brett Rogers only recently quit their day jobs.

 

There really isn't a straighter answer I can give to unfortunately... apart from that MMA is a hard way to make a living.

[Self]

Bah. Just watched the show, and I'm bummed out. Not to Chael/Silva levels, but I was rooting for Brock, and he lost. Sad times.

 

Diego Sanchez had a hell of a fight though. Running spinebuster! And Joe Rogan's reaction to the Playboy hype warmed my heart.

[TracyBrooksFan]

As noted earlier, The Undertaker was being interviewed after Brock Lesnar's loss at UFC 121 when Brock walked by him. The Undertaker said, "Do you want to do it?" When asked, he said it was a "personal thing." For what it's worth, there is legit heat between Lesnar and Undertaker due to Lesnar deciding to get out of WWE and go to the NFL when people in the company felt it was time for him to do some jobs and put others over. 'Taker was one of the guys who was not happy about it.

 

ewrestlingnews

[ampulator]

This is not strictly true. Most MMA BJJ players train no-gi submission wrestling which is a lot different from pure BJJ. And the main difference between (at least Gracie) jiu-jitsu and traditional Judo is the focus on the ground game and several key elements within: there is no pinning in BJJ so to win a match the most effective technique is to secure back mount and choking your opponent unconcious. Ne-waza Judo focuses on the pin while Gracie JJ relies on guardwork and passing to dominant positions/submissions. Judo practitioners often have poor guards and no clue how to pass an opponents guard.

The reason why I ask is... well, I saw a recent clip of a Bellator match, where a Judo user does a defensive judo throw out of nowhere, almost. The guy was knocked down, and his opponent almost got his back... then BAM, a Judo Throw. It was quite nice thing to see. I've seen them before in MMA, but they always looked obvious and the opponents seem to recover quickly from it. Not this time. It got the other good.

[jesterx7769]

The reason why I ask is... well, I saw a recent clip of a Bellator match, where a Judo user does a defensive judo throw out of nowhere, almost. The guy was knocked down, and his opponent almost got his back... then BAM, a Judo Throw. It was quite nice thing to see. I've seen them before in MMA, but they always looked obvious and the opponents seem to recover quickly from it. Not this time. It got the other good.

 

Watch Karo Parysian's UFC fights. Also Maia had a pretty nice throw against Sonnen which set up the triangle so he def. has some judo in his arsenal. Jone Jones also uses them occasionally. I would also say Judo throws aren't used as much since it cannot alone finish a fight. You learn Jiu-Jitsu so you can choke, arm bar, and escape those moves, you learn boxing and muay thai so you can attack someone, a pure judo person who hasn't trained w/o a gui doesn't really have any significant advantage in a fight. Same reason alot of pure BJJ guys havent done well since they havent trained no gui that long and are used to the gui for their techniques. While a throw may look look cool and give you good position a quick double leg shoot and good positioning and accomplish the same thing.

 

Lets see..good card overall and I was excited for it eventhough I wasn't excited for Cain/Lesnar.

 

Lawlor vs. Cote= boring and usually those types of wins don't escalate a fighter so I expect the same type of undercard fight for Lawlor. Dissapointed in Cote's back to back losses since returning, if they dont cut him I expect him to fight a pure stand up fighter.

 

McGee won by triangle, big surprise, glad he won though on Spike to actually follow some TUF hype, curious what they will do next with him opponent wise.

 

Schaub vs. Gonzalez, I think most thought Schaub would win, it was a little slow but glad Schaub won since I dont like Gonzalez, don't agree with him calling out Mir as I think Mir beats him without too much trouble.

 

Ortiz Hammill, it seemed not alot on boards cared about this fight. I used to be a big Ortiz fan but he's plain and simple out and done unless he's fighting Shamrock. Don't really buy Hammill as a 205 contender either so lets see what they do with him, most of the 205 is booked right now so we'll probably have to wait awhile.

 

Diego/Paulo, REALLY glad Diego won as I said in my predictions and he looked good. I felt bad for him for losing to Hathaway, the Penn loss wasn't a big deal to me, I just thought Diego was waaay to cautious in that fight. Then he got dominated. Glad he is back and we will see who he fights next.

as one article mentioned he has 3 FOTN's in his last 5 fights, if he chooses to fight at 170 how about a Dan Hardy match up? That would at least be entertaining.

 

Shields/Kampmann: So wow, this fight was won of the best grappling fights I have seen that I can remember. Most ground fights go like Cote/lawlor but these guys were very active and made all sorts of great transitions and reversals. I def. thought it would be 29-28 for someone and UFC got their wish with Shields. Kampann is very very good MMA wrestler though, he did a great job securing hooks and maintaining position when people thought he would get dominated there. Shields said he cut 20 lbs in 24 hours which he admits was dumb and won't be doing that anymore. I thought it was an entertaining fight that actually rose Kampmann's status more than Shields so we'll see what happens with Shields.

 

Lesnar vs Cain: I was one of the many who said Lesnar would dominate but Cain's MMA wrestling proved to be great. Brock got rocked a little bit and I think he was totally dazed when he was on the ground as he wasn't trying to close guard or improve his position just laying there. Some can argue the stoppage was a bit premature but I dont think Brock would last much longer.

 

Whoever said Brock has a weak chin is seriously pulling that out of his rear end, how does he have a weak chin? Carwin didn't KO him and Cain didn't either, losing by TKO because someone is on top of you throwing 50 punches doesn't mean you have a weak chin, it means you are human since the human head isn't meant to get hit 50 times in 60 seconds. He got hit, tried running away a little dazed and fell which as we saw leads to more shots raining down. Its like when people say GSP has poor submission defense and a weak chin since he's been sub'd once and lost once to a TKO out of all those fights. What I do agree with and what others are saying he doesn't like to get hit and Dana somewhat admitted this when saying his defensive boxing isn't there. His strength is his power and he knows it and basis his gameplan for all his fights around it. Once you start clipping him he has panicked his last two fights since those were the only times he has actually had to deal with being punched (Herring didn't land squat, Couture didn't, and Mir didn't in either fight). One big question I have for Lesnar though is his wrestling now since being a successful MMA wrestler means taking shots and successful striking , example GSP vs. Alves as he would lead him to exchange taking a fews hots then shoot. Carwin stuffed him in round 1 but admitted the acid build up in his legs totally made him dead for round two. versus Cain Lesnar took him down twice only to get back up so they def. need to work on something since this "ultimate double leg" doesn't seem to be cutting it against better and bigger HW's. No clue what is next for him. I see a long lay off due to the cut, him not needing money, and a lack of a real stand out opponent, although I do think whooping Kongo's ass would be most entertaining and deserved.

 

I am looking forward to Dos Santos vs. Cain though more than this past fight. I've liked watching Dos Santos and his quick striking and KO's. While either could knock each other out in round 1 I hope its a high action packed fight leading to a decision or a 5th round KO, but only one HW's title fight I can recall has gone 5 rounds in the UFC

[sabataged]

As noted earlier, The Undertaker was being interviewed after Brock Lesnar's loss at UFC 121 when Brock walked by him. The Undertaker said, "Do you want to do it?" When asked, he said it was a "personal thing." For what it's worth, there is legit heat between Lesnar and Undertaker due to Lesnar deciding to get out of WWE and go to the NFL when people in the company felt it was time for him to do some jobs and put others over. 'Taker was one of the guys who was not happy about it.

 

ewrestlingnews

 

 

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/article/video-the-undertaker-calls-lesnar-out-at-ufc-121-details-115037

[SaySo]

Floating in Sherdog.com:

 

http://i52.tinypic.com/2nkigc9.jpg

 

Possible Dancing with the Stars appearance for Brock?

[jesterx7769]

edited to other thread.

[ampulator]

Jester, I don't think he has a WEAK chin, just a not-so-good one. He might not get knocked out, but he does get knocked silly easily.

 

Remember Roy Nelson vs. Dos Santos? Nelson took some serious shots, but he remained in the game. Now THAT's a chin.

[The Shape]

Carwin pulling out of Nelson fight so we don't get to see him return to his 1 minute win streak. Hope they throw Mir in there, scrap the Brock rubber match and have Brock/Carwin 2 as a massive non-title headliner when Carwin's healthy. And Mir gets to win as well. Everybody wins, even Nelson who won't get beaten as violently.

[brashleyholland]

The short answer is that Judo is very dependent on the gi and BJJ isn't, and that Judo is missing several techniques that are absolutely key to be successful in MMA

 

That's pretty much it. Also, BJJ/No-Gi are, by their very nature, tailor-made to be used in MMA/real-life situations. Modern Judo (for the most part) isn't. Most competition Judo taught in the world today follows the pattern of Olympic Judo, in which there is no striking and very little in the way of actual combat. It's strayed very far from it's roots.

 

That's not to say that you can't use it in MMA, or that someone with a Judo background can't be successful. Look at Dong-Hyun Kim, Karo Parisyan, Manny Gamburyan, hell, even Fedor - Sambo is a modern hybrid martial art with it's main roots in Judo and Karate.

 

The fact is though, someone who trains their entire life to compete in Judo competitions is going to have less tools to be successful in MMA than someone who has done the same amount of work in BJJ/No-Gi. That's really why we see a larger number of successful MMA fighters from BJJ/No-Gi backgrounds than Judo ones.

[SaySo]

The California State Athletic Commission has released the disclosed payroll figures for last Saturday's UFC 121 event. Brock Lesnar earned his base $400,000, although he also receives a percentage of the event's pay-per-view purchases which brings up his overall total. Tito Ortiz, due to the deal he signed in 2009, earned $250,000 in his loss to Matt Hamill. New UFC Heavyweight Champion Cain Velasquez earned $200,000 for his first round victory, and just behind the three of them was UFC newcomer Jake Shields, who earned $150,000 for his split decision victory over Martin Kampmann. Full disclosed payroll figures are below:

 

• Cain Velasquez: $200,000 (includes $100,000 win bonus)

• Brock Lesnar: $400,000

• Jake Shields: $150,000 ($75,000 win bonus)

• Martin Kampmann: $27,000

• Diego Sanchez: $100,000 ($50,000 win bonus)

• Paulo Thiago: $18,000

• Matt Hamill: $58,000 ($29,000 win bonus)

• Tito Ortiz: $250,000

• Brendan Schaub: $20,000 ($10,000 win bonus)

• Gabriel Gonzaga: $67,000

• Court McGee: $30,000 ($15,000 win bonus)

• Ryan Jensen: $10,000

• Tom Lawlor: $20,000 ($10,000 win bonus)

• Patrick Cote: $21,000

• Daniel Roberts: $16,000 ($8,000 win bonus)

• Mike Guymon: $8,000

• Sam Stout: $32,000 ($16,000 win bonus)

• Paul Taylor: $16,000

• Chris Camozzi: $16,000 ($8,000 win bonus)

• Dongi Yang: $8,000

• Jon Madsen: $16,000 ($8,000 win bonus)

• Gilbert Yvel: $30,000

[ampulator]

That's pretty much it. Also, BJJ/No-Gi are, by their very nature, tailor-made to be used in MMA/real-life situations. Modern Judo (for the most part) isn't. Most competition Judo taught in the world today follows the pattern of Olympic Judo, in which there is no striking and very little in the way of actual combat. It's strayed very far from it's roots.

 

That's not to say that you can't use it in MMA, or that someone with a Judo background can't be successful. Look at Dong-Hyun Kim, Karo Parisyan, Manny Gamburyan, hell, even Fedor - Sambo is a modern hybrid martial art with it's main roots in Judo and Karate.

 

The fact is though, someone who trains their entire life to compete in Judo competitions is going to have less tools to be successful in MMA than someone who has done the same amount of work in BJJ/No-Gi. That's really why we see a larger number of successful MMA fighters from BJJ/No-Gi backgrounds than Judo ones.

That's nice to know. Thanks.

 

So it makes me wonder, a person with a good wrestling and BJJ skills should do very well, but if they have little to no striking, would they still do well?

 

I mean, there is Fitch and Shields, but Fitch is more of a wrestler, and Shields of BJJ. What happens if there is a person that's clearly good in both, but not good at strking?

[Daffanka]

That's nice to know. Thanks.

 

So it makes me wonder, a person with a good wrestling and BJJ skills should do very well, but if they have little to no striking, would they still do well?

 

I mean, there is Fitch and Shields, but Fitch is more of a wrestler, and Shields of BJJ. What happens if there is a person that's clearly good in both, but not good at strking?

 

If there's a guy talented enough to cross train from wrestling/BJJ into the other discipline and essentially be considered a mixed fighter he'll be talented and smart enough to be at least competent in the striking game.

 

The two examples that stand out for me are GSP and Jacare, both very, very good fighters. Jacare comes from a BJJ/Judo background but he's clearly got to grips with the wrestling aspect of MMA and provided his management picks the right fights and he keeps improving like he has he could go really far. GSP is obvious.