The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[brashleyholland]

BJ Penn vs Matt Hughes - I remember nearly 7 years ago downloading a grainy, pixilated version of their first fight and being amazed when Penn won. Here's to Penn pulling it off again.

 

Also, Matt Hughes has my second favourite entrance music in UFC history. 'A Country Boy Can Survive' by Hank Williams Jr. Tune!

[GatorBait19]

to me Rampage vs Dragon was a close hard fought fight. Good for Rampage to get a little steam heading forward and god I hope they get the rematch

[Daffanka]

Penn over Hughes by TKO. Hughes is still one of the sport's best survivors (just after Penn) and his top game is still really good but I'm going with Penn landing that sweet left hook counter on an incoming Hughes and finishing him.

 

BOOM (wrong punch though.) I had 15 seconds of nostalgic memories of buying bootleg videos before Penn blasted him.

 

I thought Machida clearly won the first and third round against Rampage but he really was not aggressive enough and he still has that terrible habit of going straight back. I guess Rampage coming in to the Pride theme and not looking downright horrible made me root for him a little bit though. It was a much better fight than I thought it would be.

 

I was mega wrong about Falcao but Harris looked dreadful. The third round was the continuation of Shamrock - Severn 2 I thought Machida - Rampage was going to be.

 

Phil Davis rules.

 

George Sotiropolous rules.

 

Dennis Hallman rules.

 

It was a pretty great card.

[brashleyholland]

That was indeed a great card.

 

Main event hinged on who you gave the first round to. I gave it to Rampage, but I can completely understand someone giving it to Machida. My scorecard was 29-28 Rampage...there are a lot of people online saying that the last round was a 10-8, but I guess they were watching a different fight!

 

Penn-Hughes was 20-odd seconds of tension followed by all-round good times

 

Harris looked bad more than Falcao looked good - with that said, I understand why Falcao coasted the last round.

 

George Sotiropoulos vs Sean Sherk in Oz next Feb. Winner gets a title shot.

 

Phil Davis has the shoulders of an action figure.

 

As if this night wasn't surreal enough, I got an email off Mike f'ing Tyson. A colleague gave his manager my Gmail addy. Bizarre!

[GatorBait19]

That was indeed a great card.

 

Main event hinged on who you gave the first round to. I gave it to Rampage, but I can completely understand someone giving it to Machida. My scorecard was 29-28 Rampage...there are a lot of people online saying that the last round was a 10-8, but I guess they were watching a different fight!

 

Penn-Hughes was 20-odd seconds of tension followed by all-round good times

 

Harris looked bad more than Falcao looked good - with that said, I understand why Falcao coasted the last round.

 

George Sotiropoulos vs Sean Sherk in Oz next Feb. Winner gets a title shot.

 

Phil Davis has the shoulders of an action figure.

 

As if this night wasn't surreal enough, I got an email off Mike f'ing Tyson. A colleague gave his manager my Gmail addy. Bizarre!

 

 

I agree with how you scored the 1st round and the fight. I thought Rampage was more aggressive and seemed to want it more. I didn't personal think Dragon did enough to warrant a 10 to 8 3rd round. He had a great match and won it yes, but Rampage also had offense in that round as well.

 

 

Also cool about the tyson thing

[i effin rule]

According to the post fight presser, it will be Sotiropoulus vs Siver in Australia.

[RingofHonorGuard]

The judging last night was absolutely awful. Was it comprised of people who actually liked Severn/Shammy 2? Seriously, how does Tyson Griffin lose that fight? That was ten times the robbery than what Quinton pulled off.

 

I can AT LEAST see why Quinton won. He was extremely aggressive at times, and when he landed it was mostly meaningful. The judges just don't seem all that into the effectiveness of leg kicks still. I thought the match was tied up going into the third, but Machida absolutely owned him in the third. I don't want to see this rematch, unless it's for a title down the road.

[Self]

<p>Lyoto won the fight. I can see how the judges scored it differently, but Lyoto beat him. He just did.</p><p> </p><p>

Not a bad show. The Main Event was kinda boring, and the Harris/Falcoa fight was the worst thing I've ever seen, except for about 30 awesome seconds. I can't stand watching counter-punching. Makes me want to change the channel. </p><p> </p><p>

Enjoyed the first 3 fights though. Good stuff.</p>

[ampulator]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Self" data-cite="Self" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Lyoto won the fight. I can see how the judges scored it differently, but Lyoto beat him. He just did.<p> </p><p> Not a bad show. The Main Event was kinda boring, and the Harris/Falcoa fight was the worst thing I've ever seen, except for about 30 awesome seconds. I can't stand watching counter-punching. Makes me want to change the channel. </p><p> </p><p> Enjoyed the first 3 fights though. Good stuff.</p></div></blockquote><p> I though Machida won the fight, but here's the thing. It's judged by rounds, not as a whole fight. Round wise, It was close, second was Rampage's, third was Machida.</p>

[Self]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I though Machida won the fight, but here's the thing. It's judged by rounds, not as a whole fight. Round wise, It was close, second was Rampage's, third was Machida.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I thought the first 2 rounds were draws. I guess 10-10's aren't the done thing in UFC, but that's the impression I got.</p><p> </p><p> I heard a suggestion somewhere that if two guys are standing, doing nothing, the referee should be allowed to disqualify them. I would have loved that in the Falcoa fight. Clearly they didn't want to fight, so DQ 'em and move onto the next thing. Massive waste of my time watched 5 minutes of circling.</p>

[TheKenwyne]

<p>Fightmetric scores it 29-29. My DVR failed at the record of the fight so I can't offer my opinion of anything that went down last night. Anything particularly mindblowing?</p><p> </p><p>

<a href="http://blog.fightmetric.com/2010/11/rampage-vs-machida-fightmetric-report.html" rel="external nofollow">http://blog.fightmetric.com/2010/11/rampage-vs-machida-fightmetric-report.html</a></p>

[GatorBait19]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Self" data-cite="Self" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I thought the first 2 rounds were draws. I guess 10-10's aren't the done thing in UFC, but that's the impression I got.<p> </p><p> I heard a suggestion somewhere that if two guys are standing, doing nothing, the referee should be allowed to disqualify them. I would have loved that in the Falcoa fight. Clearly they didn't want to fight, so DQ 'em and move onto the next thing. Massive waste of my time watched 5 minutes of circling.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> which fight did you find tied first two rounds? Rampage's?</p><p> </p><p> I saw a close could go either way 1st round. Rampage won the 2nd and Dragon won the third.</p>

[ampulator]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Self" data-cite="Self" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I thought the first 2 rounds were draws. I guess 10-10's aren't the done thing in UFC, but that's the impression I got.<p> </p><p> I heard a suggestion somewhere that if two guys are standing, doing nothing, the referee should be allowed to disqualify them. I would have loved that in the Falcoa fight. Clearly they didn't want to fight, so DQ 'em and move onto the next thing. Massive waste of my time watched 5 minutes of circling.</p></div></blockquote><p> the referee's not going to do that. You want a riot? Not even Japanese referees will do that. In any case, Rampage was more active and did more damage, but Lyoto was better technically and was more accurate. </p><p> </p><p> Lyoto won the third, but the other two were close, but I'd give Rampage the second one. Like I said, a close fight. I thought Machida won, but like people always say, "Don't leave up to the judges." I think even Machida thought he wasn't doing enough to win. Why did he come out so hard in the third, whicdh was un-Lyoto-Machida-like?</p><p> </p><p> It was a good fight, though. I think Dana's just glad Rampage won instead.</p>

[Bigpapa42]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Self" data-cite="Self" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I thought the first 2 rounds were draws. I guess 10-10's aren't the done thing in UFC, but that's the impression I got.<p> </p><p> I heard a suggestion somewhere that if two guys are standing, doing nothing, the referee should be allowed to disqualify them. I would have loved that in the Falcoa fight. Clearly they didn't want to fight, so DQ 'em and move onto the next thing. Massive waste of my time watched 5 minutes of circling.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The Pride approach of giving out yellow cards - which resulted in a fighter's purse being docked - was pretty effective to keep guys from stalling, either in the stand-up or on the ground. Then again, given how iffy reffing tends to be, giving them additional power might not be a good plan. </p><p> </p><p> I would agree on the first two rounds being 10-10. But those are pretty much not given at all under the unified rules. I can see where the judges gave the first two rounds to Rampage. He was more aggressive and controlled the cage (to a degree). Machida landed more effective strikes. </p><p> </p><p> The interesting thing is that giving the first two rounds to Machida would basically be giving him the fight based on leg kicks. It was also make it pretty much impossible to tell someone like Falcao that the third round of his fight was unacceptable, because Machida was on his bike by midway through the first round. I realize that its Machida's style, but its tough to tell some guys they have to engage when its not a consistent message.</p>

[ampulator]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Bigpapa42" data-cite="Bigpapa42" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The Pride approach of giving out yellow cards - which resulted in a fighter's purse being docked - was pretty effective to keep guys from stalling, either in the stand-up or on the ground. Then again, given how iffy reffing tends to be, giving them additional power might not be a good plan. <p> </p><p> I would agree on the first two rounds being 10-10. But those are pretty much not given at all under the unified rules. I can see where the judges gave the first two rounds to Rampage. He was more aggressive and controlled the cage (to a degree). Machida landed more effective strikes. </p><p> </p><p> The interesting thing is that giving the first two rounds to Machida would basically be giving him the fight based on leg kicks. It was also make it pretty much impossible to tell someone like Falcao that the third round of his fight was unacceptable, because Machida was on his bike by midway through the first round. I realize that its Machida's style, but its tough to tell some guys they have to engage when its not a consistent message.</p></div></blockquote><p> I actually thought Machida was minimally, though not maximumly, aggressive enough in this fight. And this is coming from guy that dislikes Fitch and Okami's style. The real issue was, did he CLEARLY win the first two rounds? No. But I thought he won the third one. I can probably see people scoring the first two for him. It's not something I would disagree with. What gave Rampage the second round was the takedown, and Lyoto clearly won the third. The first was much more up in the air. </p><p> </p><p> the problem was, though, it wasn't clear enough. And it's not clear enough, and you leave it to the judges... well, again, as they say, "Don't leave it up to judges". Personally, I thought it would been a split draw.</p>

[Daffanka]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Bigpapa42" data-cite="Bigpapa42" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The Pride approach of giving out yellow cards - which resulted in a fighter's purse being docked - was pretty effective to keep guys from stalling, either in the stand-up or on the ground. Then again, given how iffy reffing tends to be, giving them additional power might not be a good plan. </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22wYrVmj4Tk" rel="external nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22wYrVmj4Tk</a></p><p> </p><p> No it really wasn't. It was a way for DSE to take foreigners' money and pretend it was justified. It still is, just look at how Aurelius was carded for "stalling" against Aoki when he was mounted with his legs triangled. How many times has the more popular guy been carded in any Japanese fight?</p><p> </p><p> The reason Pride had more finishes and less stalling was because their way of booking revolved around squash matches, big weight discrepancies and back then guys were nowhere near as defensively skilled as they are today. The competitive fights for the ages that we did see (Nog vs. Barnett, Nog vs. Cro Cop, Wanderlei vs. Rampage, etc.) all came from the tournaments because then it was unavoidable that the best guys in Pride fought each other.</p><p> </p><p> Daijiro Matsui had a ton of boring fights as did Akira Shoji and a lot of other Japanese journeymen when they were actually equally matched. Arona had a really good record filled with boring fights. Yellow cards didn't stop Sherk from Sherking it up.</p><p> </p><p> If the UFC starts booking Shogun vs. Gono and there's still stalling you might have something there about the yellow cards. Until then? Not really.</p><p> </p><p> For the record I really dislike Falcao and Harris both for that third round but carding really is not the answer. If a guy is so dead set on victory that he won't engage at all despite all the liabilities that brings with it (Falcao's probably getting undercard duty against tough opponents for a while) why would 10% off his purse stop him? Not to mention the whole ordeal that deducting fighters' purses brings with it in a place where MMA is actually regulated.</p><p> </p><p> I thought the ref should've just taken a point from Falcao for refusing to engage or however he'd justify it. Then Harris could've gotten a draw if Falcao didn't fight.</p><p> </p><p> e: Also while I'm Mad About Fighting And Can't Sleep what was up with Harris' stance? It looked like he was trying some sort of Caribbean power boxing style but did absolutely nothing with his left hand to set up the big power strikes with his right. Just sort of threw punches that went around the moon which clearly weren't going to hit Falcao.</p>

[brashleyholland]

<p>Carding was ok when it worked, but I would say that more often than not Ricardo Arona wouldn't turn into Leonard Garcia after a flash of the yellow :-p Plus, as has already been stated, "foreigner tax" was a very, very real thing. </p><p> </p><p>

Here's my issue with yellow cards being used in the US. Referee's and judges still can't agree on MASSIVE things like whether a fighter gets five minutes for an eye poke or not, what constitutes the back of the head/9-6 elbows, when to stand fighters up, etc, etc....giving them another subjective decision to make when they are already under pressure is going to lead to more bad calls. </p><p> </p><p>

Now, if Rampage Jackson loses 10% of his purse to a bad call, he's not starving...but if Johnny Cagefighter on King of the Cage's opening bout loses 10% of the peanuts he's already getting paid due to a bad call, then it's just another barrier to entry for young athletes. </p><p> </p><p>

The pressure on a referee is incredible - If you or I screw up at work the worst we can get is a roasting from the boss or fired. If a combat sports ref screws up, they could be responsible for the end of someone's careers, livelihood or much, much worse. I think a ref's job should be as simple as possible, and asking them to fine fighters mid-match on a judgement call as to what constitutes enough 'action' is only complicating things further.</p>

[The Shape]

Machida is a wimp and I don't want to see him fight again, so glad Rampage won, gotta love the guy.

 

Penn...amazing. You could just tell by looking at his face what was going to happen. Quickly becoming my favourite guy in the UFC. Except Chris Leben of course.

[brashleyholland]

Machida is a wimp and I don't want to see him fight again, so glad Rampage won, gotta love the guy.

 

 

It's a tough one. The guy is coming off a huge KO, so I can understand him being gun-shy against someone with the one shot stopping power of Rampage.

 

On the other hand, he's *always* fought like that - when he's winning it's 'elusive' and 'technical brilliance', when he's losing (or before he was popular) he's a coward and a spoiler. That seems to be the general perception anyway. The fact remains the same though; if you fight like that against someone who comes forward and cuts off the cage, you're going to lose once in a while.

 

The way I see it is this; here's a guy who has made a career out of not getting hit. He'd been fighting for 7 years with 16 wins before he got hit properly, and when he did get hit properly he was out like a light. That must do crazy things to a guy's head...and to make matters worse, his first fight back is against the division's hardest puncher.

 

I see him learning from this though...my man Chris Greenman made the point on MMABay radio today that *not* getting iced by Rampage will have given him his confidence back, and that we should expect a looong undefeated streak from this point forward. I completely agree.

[Bigpapa42]

No it really wasn't. It was a way for DSE to take foreigners' money and pretend it was justified. It still is, just look at how Aurelius was carded for "stalling" against Aoki when he was mounted with his legs triangled. How many times has the more popular guy been carded in any Japanese fight?

 

I guess I should have clarified that it was a pretty good idea of how to keep fights moving. Even if the end result was just a "tax", the theory wasn't bad. Its a better approach than simply disqualifying fighters for stalling. The basic idea of fighters having a point taken for stalling is good, but the problem becomes that it can obviously affect the outcome of a fight and stalling can be a fairly subjective thing. Whatever approach is taken, it has to be applied fairly and adequately, and I just don't trust most refs do that at this point.

[brashleyholland]

I guess I should have clarified that it was a pretty good idea of how to keep fights moving. Even if the end result was just a "tax", the theory wasn't bad. Its a better approach than simply disqualifying fighters for stalling. The basic idea of fighters having a point taken for stalling is good, but the problem becomes that it can obviously affect the outcome of a fight and stalling can be a fairly subjective thing. Whatever approach is taken, it has to be applied fairly and adequately, and I just don't trust most refs do that at this point.

 

This technically can be done already. 'Timidity' is against the rules...after repeated warnings a referee (at his discretion) can stop the fight and deduct a point. If they didn't do it for Kalib Starnes though, I don't know what they'll do it for! :-p I'd much prefer more leniency/encouragement to use this than a card system.

 

If I remember rightly, I have seen a fight where the ref just had enough, called it a no-contest and left the ring due to a lack of action It was in Holland, I thing in RINGS or 2Hot 2Handle.

[Bigpapa42]

This technically can be done already. 'Timidity' is against the rules...after repeated warnings a referee (at his discretion) can stop the fight and deduct a point. If they didn't do it for Kalib Starnes though, I don't know what they'll do it for! :-p I'd much prefer more leniency/encouragement to use this than a card system.

 

If I remember rightly, I have seen a fight where the ref just had enough, called it a no-contest and left the ring due to a lack of action It was in Holland, I thing in RINGS or 2Hot 2Handle.

 

I realize its in the rules. I've actually heard refs threaten it in UFC fights, but don't recall it ever being used.

 

Daffanka does have a good point - the UFC (or whatever the organization is) does have the ability to punish the fighter in terms of what happens with their next fight.

[ampulator]

This technically can be done already. 'Timidity' is against the rules...after repeated warnings a referee (at his discretion) can stop the fight and deduct a point. If they didn't do it for Kalib Starnes though, I don't know what they'll do it for! :-p I'd much prefer more leniency/encouragement to use this than a card system.

 

If I remember rightly, I have seen a fight where the ref just had enough, called it a no-contest and left the ring due to a lack of action It was in Holland, I thing in RINGS or 2Hot 2Handle.

There must have been a REAL lack of action. Literally, doing nothing for the whole fight. Shoot, that would anger anyone.

[Daffanka]

I see him learning from this though...my man Chris Greenman made the point on MMABay radio today that *not* getting iced by Rampage will have given him his confidence back, and that we should expect a looong undefeated streak from this point forward. I completely agree.

 

Yeah I agree. He's been matched up against top 4 guys in his last four fights and going 2-2 really isn't a mark on the guy, especially with Rampage looking much better. I'm genuinely curious as to his next opponent will be, he didn't take much damage in the fight and hopefully he gets someone he can shine against. Maybe the loser of Franklin - Forrest (which should be a dynamite fight) or Jones - Bader.

 

I guess I should have clarified that it was a pretty good idea of how to keep fights moving. Even if the end result was just a "tax", the theory wasn't bad. Its a better approach than simply disqualifying fighters for stalling. The basic idea of fighters having a point taken for stalling is good, but the problem becomes that it can obviously affect the outcome of a fight and stalling can be a fairly subjective thing. Whatever approach is taken, it has to be applied fairly and adequately, and I just don't trust most refs do that at this point.

 

This is true of any ref call, including yellow cards though. The implications are more severe but since refs are so gun shy about ever taking a point ("don't make me warn you for the twelfth time about grabbing that fence!") I don't think it would ever be abused. There's a big difference between what Machida does in his fights and what Falcao did as well, if you literally don't engage in an entire round you deserve to have a point deducted.

[brashleyholland]

Whatever is in Toby Imada's water bottle, I want some.

 

I'm gonna spoil the Shootboxing S-Cup here, as it seems highly unlikely that there will be any full video of the event available in the near future.

 

So yeah, Toby Imada - journeyman MMA fighter who came out of knowhere last year to get to the finals of Bellator's lightweight GP, pulling off one of the sickest submissions ever seen in MMA in the process. Then he came back in 2010 and got to the finals again.

 

Anyway, after getting into the S-Cup as a late replacement, he scored a 3rd round KO of the current Japanese 'ace' Takaaki Umeno in the quarter final.

 

Then he beat Andy Freaking Souwer. Just to give that some context, Imada is a grappler and Souwer is one of the top stand-up fighters in the world at that weight. He used Judo throws and grappling to shut the striker down and take a 2-1 decision.

 

Not to break with his tradition, he lost in the final His legs had already taken a kicking, and Buakaw finished the job in the second round. Veteran or not, your legs just can't stand up to that kind of abuse without years of getting used to it.

 

Still, Imada in the finals, Souwer getting outpointed...pretty amazing to a geek like me!

 

EDIT: It seems like Souwer had a severe back injury (suspected to be a herniated disk) going into his semi-final fight. If true, that's insane!