~Montreal Aftermath: December 1997 Official Release~

[gazwefc83]

Yeah I believe they are too low... and its causing problems with simming. WCW and WWF popularity keeps falling because of low match ratings.

 

agreed and the product setting for the wwf also mean the fans dislike standard matches 1vs1, 2vs2, 1vs1vs1 etc because theres not enough risk in those matches

[soundsofsilver]

Here's some more ramblings on psychology, at 3 in the morning when I am pretty tired.

 

I understand your thinking on a lot of these, I just think that some of the penalties you gave for psychology were high compared to the C-Verse. By comparison, 117 of the 580 C-Verse workers available in the US have psychology of 70 or above, whereas only 35 of your 683 eligible American workers have psychology of 70 or above. That is a large discrepancy that will lead to lower match ratings overall.

It is possible that we can assume the C-Verse in 2010 is just much more talented than the wrestling world was in 1997. It's just that the data matches up pretty well except this one point.

 

 

 

There are some specific wrestlers who I think have too low of psychology levels for their skill levels:

 

Chris Benoit at an 82 psychology just seems unbelievably low. He is of similar age and probably skill to Angry Gilmore, who is a 91.

 

Brawlers seems generally low. The top 48 brawlers in the C-Verse have a low Psychology of 56, with most of them 70 or above. Comparatively, the 1997 data has at leaast 15 of the top 48 brawlers, below 56 in Psychology.

Ron Simmons, a veteran worker at 39 years old, and former World Champion, should probably have higher than a 69 in psychology.

 

As someone mentioned, 64 is way too low for Jeff Jarrett.

 

Mick Foley at 76 strikes me as a tad low, as I always felt he knew how to tell a great story in a match.

 

Were Mike Awesome and Tanaka just AWFUL? A 29 in psychology seems really drastic. There is no comparable worker I can find in the C-Verse who is obviously talented, but has THAT bad of psychology. I'm not sure where it should be... but at least 10 points better than a 29.

 

Al Snow, 46, seems really low compared to the C-Verse.

 

Fit Finlay, at 39, and a talented worker, should probably be higher than a 67, unless he had abnormally bad psychology. Talented veteran workers in the C-Verse tend to have higher psychology to reflect that. Likewise, I think Regal is much better than a 69.

 

Raven, 71, seems too low. He wasn't a particularly talented worker, but I really thought he improved his matches with great psychology.

 

You probably recognized Dean Malenko as an amazing technical wrestler, but he should also probably have psychology above 82, I think.

 

Owen Hart, at 75, is just way too low. Even if you agree that he was nowhere near Bret, his psychology should at least be in the 80s.

 

I would argue that Eddie Guerrero at 80 is a tad low.

 

While Kurt Angle and Ken shamrock should be penalized for a lack of psychology, I think 58 and 42 are a bit too low.

 

Is Lance Storm really a 43? That seems WAY too low.

 

Curt Hennig, 79, seems far too low.

 

Chris Jericho at 72 seems low.

 

Ultimo Dragon is 30 years old with quite a few years under his belt, and is a very talented technical wrestler. He is only a 68. Perhaps I am naive in thinking he had an unusual psychology for a cruiserweight, but I sort of feel like he should be around a 78. Similarly, I think Jushin Liger is a bit underrated at 75. But maybe not much. I tend to think a lot of the high-flyers have too little psychology when compared to the C-Verse. Your high-Aerial workers are often below 50, which is pretty rare among the top C-Verse high fliers, who tend to the 60s and 70s. In some cases, this is accurate given the state of cruiserweight wrestling in 1997, but some of the veteran workers- Great Sasuke, Jerry Lynn, Hector Garza, Tajiri, Mascara Sagrada, Halloween, Funaki, etc. should probably be rated a bit higher unless they were particularly known for having low psychology. Again, this is debatable, I'm just comparing them to similarly skilled C-Verse workers around the same age.

[soundsofsilver]

Also, while I like some of what you've done with the products, I don't think they're quite accurate in terms of what we want them to produce in TEW. But more on that tomorrow when I have time to defend my position.

[Genadi]

Yeah I believe they are too low... and its causing problems with simming. WCW and WWF popularity keeps falling because of low match ratings.

 

On every sim I and testers have ran that's not the case so you and Gaz experiencing this I find odd. How long into game are you guys? First few weeks always start off with below norm ratings due to rosters settling etc.

[Genadi]

Also, while I like some of what you've done with the products, I don't think they're quite accurate in terms of what we want them to produce in TEW. But more on that tomorrow when I have time to defend my position.

 

That's going to be one for the editor like I said earlier, I'm happy with where the product settings are for the most part.

 

The WWF product may need a little tweaking but only to ensure crowds don't dump on 1v1 normal bouts.

[gazwefc83]

On every sim I and testers have ran that's not the case so you and Gaz experiencing this I find odd. How long into game are you guys? First few weeks always start off with below norm ratings due to rosters settling etc.

 

5 times iv simmed the first month, both wcw and wwf dropped acouple of percent off there US popularity everytime and once the wwf dropped to cult after the 3rd week. I thinks its psychology and product as to why its happening

 

EDIT: i just want to add im really greatful for the work you have done on this and the only reason i havnt edited any changes myself is because im sure you will be releasing an update soon and it will then need redoing again

[Mr.Macho]

13 months, once you have edited WWF’s product let me know so I can re-download or just change it myself

[bobinc]

All files were up on bobinc.net some time last night.

[Genadi]

Psychology is undergoing a big overhaul, lots of guys have been bumped up. Update will be up by this time tomorrow, also Shotgun TV slot has been added and other fixes updated.

[Mr.Macho]

Four hours until I finish work.... Can I wait for the update or not? hmmmmm

[LoganRodzen]

I've simulated Dec '97 to July '02 and all I can say is this mod is the awesomeness. ECW went bankrupt in 2000, WCW is cult but still alive (I did some prestige editing after the litigation narrative to make sure they'd make it), and WWF is dominant at global.

 

I must say that the very best part of this mod is all of the narratives you've added. Although I've only done the watching sim, I'm hoping to start a game tonight with ECW. Really awesome mod! Everyone who put hard work into this can give themselves a nice pat on the back.

[steesh07]

I may finally try this over the weekend

[Ruthian23]

Psychology is undergoing a big overhaul, lots of guys have been bumped up. Update will be up by this time tomorrow, also Shotgun TV slot has been added and other fixes updated.

 

It'll just be the data that we need to re-download, right? (Not the pic pack, etc.) I'm going to wait the extra day before I really dive in.

[Genadi]

It'll just be the data that we need to re-download, right? (Not the pic pack, etc.) I'm going to wait the extra day before I really dive in.

 

Yeah not the pic pack that won't change.

[Slim Jim]

Surprised no one mentioned the amount of drinking/drugs penalties they've been getting. My first run through with both WWF and WCW it was like a kick in the nuts to my first couple of shows until I adjusted my booking to it, and managed to get some guys off the drugs.

 

Having said that, a lot seem fair enough but I was curious about Austin's drinking. I know that was built into his gimmick but I don't recall ever thinking his performance suffered because he had been drinking; slowed down in the ring through injury, sure, but given that him and McMahon put out some of the most memorable segments ever around this time, having them both getting hit with drinking penalties was a problem I edited away.

 

On the flip side, rewatching '97/'98 shows recently showed that certain guys were having trouble even running straight... so I'm less surprised by the levels than I was at first.

 

Also had a look outside the top two for potentials. Personally, not a fan of guys like Test, Heidenreich, Masters, Sabin, Hero, etc. having their potential set because it sort of defeats the point of rewriting history if guys are going to suck or thrive regardless of what you do. I could kind of understand why you'd do it for the guys that have reached their peak [but I still don't agree ] but for people that haven't debuted, eh, I spent a while editing that.

[YoungNoble]

WCW contracts deleted: Super Calo, Silver King, Lenny Lane, El Dandy, Yuji Nagata (Signed back to NJPW), Norman Smiley.

WWF Contracts deleted: Jose Estrada Jr.Jesus Castillo, Honky Tonk Man,

 

Who are you to doubt El Dandy?

 

Great Mod. Been waiting for this one!

[Fleisch]

The mod is really good, and it's obvious a hell of alot of work has been put into it, and I appreciate all your hard work, for that i say thanks very much. However, I don't like workers having their potential already set in historical mods, If I wanted everyone in 2010 (if I ever got there) to be what they are now, I'd play a 2010 mod. I think history mod makers sometimes overlook this (not saying that's what you've done). I know I could go and edit this myself, I just don't have the time or the will (having just finished tweaking my own mod) so I doubt I'll play the mod much anymore. I'm not trying to be rude or ungrateful, although I can guarantee that's what everyone is going to think, as I've said I appreciate the effort and time that has no doubt gone into this mod. Also because my response may seem negative doesn't mean I think the work you've done is poor, because it isn't, so keep up the good work. This potential thing though has kinda killed off any interest I have in playing it anymore.

[Johnny Fenoli]

The mod is really good, and it's obvious a hell of alot of work has been put into it, and I appreciate all your hard work, for that i say thanks very much. However, I don't like workers having their potential already set in historical mods, If I wanted everyone in 2010 (if I ever got there) to be what they are now, I'd play a 2010 mod. I think history mod makers sometimes overlook this (not saying that's what you've done). I know I could go and edit this myself, I just don't have the time or the will (having just finished tweaking my own mod) so I doubt I'll play the mod much anymore. I'm not trying to be rude or ungrateful, although I can guarantee that's what everyone is going to think, as I've said I appreciate the effort and time that has no doubt gone into this mod. Also because my response may seem negative doesn't mean I think the work you've done is poor, because it isn't, so keep up the good work. This potential thing though has kinda killed off any interest I have in playing it anymore.

 

I personally like the potential thing set the way it should be! I want the workers to turn out the way they are supposed. I just govern myself not to sign up every young guy who's goign to be a star.

 

I wanted to take time and say thanks for setting the potential. To each their own right?

[lazorbeak]

Another note is that match ratios are all out of whack, causing WCW and WWF to just about never have tag matches. WCW is at 10% tag matches for events, while it wasn't at all uncommon for about 1/3 of their matches to be tag team or some variation of 2 on 2. WWF's tag team scene wasn't quite as strong but it's also too low to sim correctly.

 

 

Not sure if you've played yet but have you looked at the contracts, certain guys have had their contracts modified to ensure they're getting insane dollar, Hall, Nash, Savage, Hogan, Mark Henry are amongst those names. TEW doesn't work in $ = $US so some things had to be taken into consideration. Changing one persons contract in game can have a domino effect that reaches parts of the mod you don't want it to, ie. roster pushes firings, hirings etc.

 

Which is why adding more contract information would be a positive? I guess I don't understand how something that makes a mod play like real life is a bad thing?

 

 

The data is set Dec '97, he had left the business at that time to return for a playoff run with the Bulls. If you want to lure him back do so thorugh money or the editor.

 

That's not what "leaving the business" means.

 

I disagree with a few things you said there but it's all opinion. Again, editor.

 

Wait, which part do you disagree with? The part where Warrior wasn't a main eventer in 1996? The part where Warrior wasn't a main eventer in 1998? Those are facts. The Ultimate Warrior was feuding with Goldust and Jerry Lawler in 1996 and not getting main event reactions at all, and he wouldn't immediately be a main eventer anywhere. That's not an opinion. It is an inference based on significant factual evidence.

 

 

Yes 1998 that's where he was. If you disagree there's an editor.

 

Seriously? That is your final answer? That Ken Shamrock, UFC Superfight Champion, did not have better than B stamina or C+ athleticism? I seriously assumed it was just a mistake his stats are so wrong.

 

 

Because I don't think he showed much more then that at the time. He was over due to a hot WWF product which his gimmick fit perfectly with, rolling with one of the hottest stables in history and good mic skills, all of which are represented in his stats. More importantly though, it fits with the rest of the data but if you're unhappy with it.... there's an editor.

 

Yeah.... no. It's really not about personal opinion here, either. It's about a mod that is capable of accurately simulating reality. Road Dogg/BG James/whatever got himself over. He gave entertaining promos and got the fans involved with his entrance so that in the course of one year he went from being a jobber to being one of the biggest stars in the promotion. And that can't happen in a mod that argues he has terrible charisma because you thought he was just the right guy in the right place.

 

Thanks for your feedback Lazorbeak but please remember there's an editor for stats that you don't agree with

 

Again, as much as possible I'm not basing anything on "opinion," so it's less about stats I don't agree with and more about stats that don't reflect the world.

 

Two more issues I've found: both athleticism and aerial skills seem to be misunderstood in the mod. Wayyy too many extremely athletic workers have athleticism stats in the 60s and below for some reason. Seriously look at the C-Verse: Tommy Cornell, Dan Stone, Sean McFly, Remo, Lassana, Burning Exile, and Oleg Dorosklov are some of the very top in the world in athleticism, all with stats of a 90 or better. Compare that to the real world, where only Rey Mysterio has an A in the default data. Guys who changed the business with their freak athleticism like Bret Hart? Actual legitimate athletes? "Meeeeeh they're not so athletic." And again, the women get hit hard for some reason. In the C-Verse, Alicia Strong and about half the roster of BSC have an athleticism of 80 or above: Alicia, because she was trained by a great worker and is young and in great shape, and the BSC girls because they're in great aerobic condition from all the pole dancing. In the mod, former fitness models, former dancers, former power-lifters, former actual athletes struggle for somewhere around a 50 to 60. I mean I'm not going to argue that Chyna was a world-class worker or entertainer but that woman was a freak athlete. So of course she has a 50 for athleticism.

 

Also there seems to be a misunderstanding of what aerial skills are: Shamrock's not the only guy with comically low aerial skills: almost any guy who doesn't do 450 splashes gets rated down severely for some reason: guys like Owen Hart are the whole reason aerial skills and flashiness are separate stats, as while Owen wasn't flashy, he could have a great "aerial" high-flying type match with anybody, and often did in the mid 90's when WWF was only really starting to get interested in the idea of fast-paced, high impact matches. In the same way, a guy like Ken Shamrock who used a standing Rana as a signature set-up move probably has better ability to do a fast-paced match than a 2 or whatever it is. Also, just because Ric Flair gets tossed off every single time he goes up top doesn't mean he deserves a 5 in having fast-paced aerial matches: it just means he isn't flashy. Again, looking at the C-verse, Bryan Holmes, Brian Vessey, Dan Stone, even Tommy Cornell have a C+ or better for aerial despite none of them being particularly flashy. Even Sam Keith, a 50 year old guy who is pretty much not an aerial worker at all has a 26, because he's a world-class worker who has worked with high-flying guys enough that he has some idea how to conduct a fast-paced match, even if he doesn't do a 720 to the outside.

 

Again, none of this is opinion. I'm trying to improve the mods playability in areas where it falls short.

[Fleisch]

I personally like the potential thing set the way it should be! I want the workers to turn out the way they are supposed. I just govern myself not to sign up every young guy who's goign to be a star.

 

I wanted to take time and say thanks for setting the potential. To each their own right?

 

Absolutely. I understand there are those who do like it (probably more so than don't) which is a reason I didn't request it be changed. It's better to appeal to the masses than 1 or 2.

[gazwefc83]

Wait, which part do you disagree with? The part where Warrior wasn't a main eventer in 1996? The part where Warrior wasn't a main eventer in 1998? Those are facts. The Ultimate Warrior was feuding with Goldust and Jerry Lawler in 1996 and not getting main event reactions at all, and he wouldn't immediately be a main eventer anywhere. That's not an opinion. It is an inference based on significant factual evidence.

 

That was the WWFs choice of push for him.

 

Here is some evidance that Warrior should be a maineventer and was around the time - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WvItjHgn1E&feature=related

[lazorbeak]

That was the WWFs choice of push for him.

 

Here is some evidance that Warrior should be a maineventer and was around the time - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WvItjHgn1E&feature=related

 

Is there some other planet where that Hogan/Warrior feud wasn't a disastrous failure and Warrior was seen as a real main eventer and not a terrible worker who wasn't over and was out of the company months later? Seriously THIS is your evidence that Warrior was a main eventer? A match so terrible that it caused Warrior to not get a contract and effectively ended his career?

[gazwefc83]

Is there some other planet where that Hogan/Warrior feud wasn't a disastrous failure and Warrior was seen as a real main eventer and not a terrible worker who wasn't over and was out of the company months later? Seriously THIS is your evidence that Warrior was a main eventer? A match so terrible that it caused Warrior to not get a contract and effectively ended his career?

 

it doesnt matter how terrible it was, it was a match between 2 maineventers regardless of how ****e it was

 

The popularity of a worker in TEW is how much of a draw they are in that region. Like it or not Warrior drew crowds plain and simple. The only reason the wwf didnt push him in 1996 is becuase he wasnt reliable enough

[lazorbeak]

it doesnt matter how terrible it was, it was a match between 2 maineventers regardless of how ****e it was

 

The popularity of a worker in TEW is how much of a draw they are in that region. Like it or not Warrior drew crowds plain and simple. The only reason the wwf didnt push him in 1996 is becuase he wasnt reliable enough

 

I'm sorry but do you honestly believe that? That Warrior was a draw in 1998? That the WCW audience cared about him? That both of those men were main eventers in a match that wasn't the main event and was poorly received from the crowd? That people in that audience were there to see the Ultimate Warrior?! I mean, did you watch any of this as it happened? It was a disaster! Nobody cared about Ultimate Warrior!

 

No, for TEW purposes, Warrior was at best a C+/C popularity guy when he showed up in WCW, from the crowd reaction to the drawing power on down the line. WCW cut ties with the guy not only because he was a bad wrestler or unreliable: they had already given contracts to dozens of guys like that! But unlike those other guys, Warrior wasn't over enough on his own to be a benefit.

 

Seriously the only place Warrior had A popularity in 1998 was his own warped mind.

[Brandon9967]

I love this mod, but I agree with Beak. I think a few stats were looked at wrong, as workers who have skill in a certain area are really shortchanged. I understand their is an editor to fix things, but when the problem is bigger things that dirctly affect the way the mod runs I guess everyone thinks the mod maker would want to fix it so it runs better. If you don't plan on fixing it, can a couple of people maybe run changes by you and fix it?