The Puroresu Thread

[BHK1978]

<p>I know next to nothing about Japanese wrestling and I have never had much interest in it. But one thing I have wondered about is why does nobody ever talk about All Japan Pro Wrestling? </p><p> </p><p>

Are they an afterthought in Japanese wrestling much like TNA is over here?</p><p> </p><p>

I see a lot of talk about NJPW but never AJPW and I was just wondering why that is the case.</p>

[Mootinie]

Constant roster exodus, nonstop corporate restructuring plus a passe, old-fashioned wrestling product that's the opposite to what's popular at the minute.

[Hashasheen]

All Japan's putting on a decent lower-level product at the moment, but between the NOAH exodus in 2001, the Muto exodus in 2013 and the ex-NOAH departure in 2015 the company's taken a lot of hits over the years. As is they're in a rebuilding phase working with the likes of BJW.

[Kitarzu]

<p>The decline starts since Giant Baba's death.</p><p> </p><p>

This is more or less what happened for AJPW and NOAH, probably I'm gonna make some temporary mistakes.</p><p> </p><p>

Baba's wife sold the company to Keiji Mutoh and his investors, some with maybe shady credentials, moving from the 90s AJPW, a product found in NOAH, to add some mainstream flavor to it. It held a strong since Hiroshi Takahashi went there for the Carnival as the uber heel invader. Unluckily for them Mutoh squander must of the money and AJPW was in danger of bankrupt. Mutoh sold the company to a businessman, Nobuo Shiraishi a strange businessman, who put the company in a worse danger than under the legendary veteran.</p><p> </p><p>

NOAH instead flourished, especially during the Kenta Kobushi's title reign. The death of Misawa, Kobashi various injury and discovered Yazuka ties with member of the board, sink the company reputation. The final stray was the non renewal of Kenta Kobashi. Five of the Kobashi loyalists, Jun Akiyama, Go Shiozaki, Yoshinobu Kanemaru, Atsushi Aoki and Kotaro Suzuki formed Burning, a faction who will move to AJPW. Their final appearance was the Kenta Kobashi retirement show, a truly historic night for puroresu. From that point, NJPW basically acquired NOAH, making it a secondary promotion for the King Of Sports, with Jado as head booker and a lot of NJPW wrestlers working there. Hi Suzuki-gun!</p><p> </p><p>

Burning went to AJPW, giving them a breath of fresh air of a lot of good wrestlers. My advice is to watch the series between Suwama and Go Shiozaki. Shiraishi sold the company to Jun Akiyama who changed to the english name of All Japan Pro Wrestling (the original name was Zen Nihon Puroresu), and relocated the head quarters from Tokyo to Yokohama.</p><p> </p><p>

Mutoh took away half of the roster and formed Wrestle-1, using the same product of his AJPW. Exodus aside, as a level of wrestling AJPW was among the best companies in terms of good matches with the likes of Suwama, Go Shiozaki and Joe Doering carring the load. After some time Akebono, the former sumotori, became a freelancer and went to create his own series of shows, Oudou. Also 3 members of the Burning left AJPW to went elsewhere. Go Shiozaki and Yoshinobu Kanemaru back to the new NOAH and Kotaro Suzuki working for Zero 1 and Wrestle-1. Injuries are also a part of the current situation as Suwama, Achilles tendon rupture, and Joe Doering, brain cancer, are out.</p><p> </p><p>

AJPW now gathers a lot of promotion, in particular Big Japan Wrestling and its main wrestlers, Daisuke Sekimoto and Yuji Okayabashi (two of ten of the best Japanese wrestlers today), that uses the same product. In the latest month AJPW and Wrestle-1 started to work together , with Akiyama appearing in a future Wrestle-1.</p><p>

show.</p>

[BHK1978]

Thank you all for the responses. I could never really find a good answer elsewhere as to why they are hardly talked about and I am glad the three of you could provide me with the answer.

[Hashasheen]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Kitarzu" data-cite="Kitarzu" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="30254" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The decline starts since Giant Baba's death.<p> </p><p> This is more or less what happened for AJPW and NOAH, probably I'm gonna make some temporary mistakes.</p><p> </p><p> Baba's wife sold the company to Keiji Mutoh and his investors, some with maybe shady credentials, moving from the 90s AJPW, a product found in NOAH, to add some mainstream flavor to it. It held a strong since Hiroshi Takahashi went there for the Carnival as the uber heel invader. Unluckily for them Mutoh squander must of the money and AJPW was in danger of bankrupt. Mutoh sold the company to a businessman, Nobuo Shiraishi a strange businessman, who put the company in a worse danger than under the legendary veteran. </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Muto sold out because a trainee got brutalized backstage by NOSAWA, IIRC.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="30254" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Burning went to AJPW, giving them a breath of fresh air of a lot of good wrestlers. My advice is to watch the series between Suwama and Go Shiozaki. Shiraishi sold the company to Jun Akiyama who changed to the english name of All Japan Pro Wrestling (the original name was Zen Nihon Puroresu), and relocated the head quarters from Tokyo to Yokohama.</div></blockquote> Not quite. Akiyama started a separate company that kept the roster and the belts. Shiraishi still owns much of the original All Japan, including their library during the Muto years.

[Kitarzu]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Hashasheen" data-cite="Hashasheen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="30254" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Muto sold out because a trainee got brutalized backstage by NOSAWA, IIRC.<p> </p><p> Not quite. Akiyama started a separate company that kept the roster and the belts. Shiraishi still owns much of the original All Japan, including their library during the Muto years.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> 1) That incident happened in 2011, when TARU beat up Nobukazu Hirai, with the historical referee Kyohei Wada and Minoru Suzuki leaving and Mutoh resigning as AJPW president. Mutoh and his backers sold to Speed Partners in early 2013.</p><p> </p><p> 2) Ok with this.</p>

[Azul]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Fantabulous" data-cite="Fantabulous" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="30254" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><strong>A Rough Guide to the ‘Young Lions’ system in Japanese wrestling</strong><p> </p><p> If you’ve played TEW then you’ll have seen the term Young Lion used and this rough guide is intended to explain how that works in Japan which is pretty much the blueprint for how it usually works everywhere else.</p><p> </p><p> When a young Japanese wrestler first debuts for a promotion he’s referred to as a ‘young boy’ because he is just starting out in wrestling. For the first year or so of his career, he’ll usually be put in tag matches where his role is to ‘get the heat’; it’s his job to set up the hot tag for the veteran partner. If he’s lucky, the Young Boy will get a few moves in so he doesn’t look like a total nothing but his role is strictly to get beaten up to build to the tag. If his team is losing, then the Boy gets pinned and if the team is winning then the veteran gets the pinfall. This does not change. Period. In singles matches, the Young Boy gets strictly token offence, if that. His role is to get beaten up and come back for more until he loses. </p><p> </p><p> This stage of the Young Boy’s career is all about ‘showing fire’. It’s about the Boy taking a beating, not giving up, and coming back for more until he finally loses. Because he is at the beginning of his career, the Young Boy wears basic attire; tights, boots and kneepads. And it’s usually black or, if not, some other simple colour. This reflects the stage at which the Young Boy is at; he’s in a position where has only ‘earned’ the most basic of attire.</p><p> </p><p> After about a year of this, the promotion will usually send the wrestler overseas for an ‘excursion’, typically for up to a year, where he’ll gain experience working in other promotions. This is intended for the wrestler to improve as worker and for the fans to see him working his way up the ladder in his career, albeit not necessarily in the promotion.</p><p> </p><p> Once the excursion is over, the wrestler returns to Japan. His attire will have ‘matured’ and he might be wearing something with a little more colour, his physique will have improved, and he’ll be seen to have grown. At this stage in his career, the wrestler will still lose to veterans but it won’t be so easy this time. He’ll get in more offence than before, get to shine more than before, and the portrayal is that the young wrestler has grown in his time away but he still isn’t at the stage where he can beat the veterans. </p><p> </p><p> It’s at this point where the wrestler might get his first taste of championship experience and be put in matches for whatever Midcard titles the promotion has. If it’s in tag matches then, like before, his role will be to get the heat for the veteran partner. However, he’ll get more offence than before and will be seen to ‘belong’ at that level. As before, if his team is losing then the younger wrestler will be the one who gets pinned. However, if his team is winning, and he’s considered good enough or ‘matured’ enough, then the young wrestler might even be the one who gets the fall on the junior member of the opposing team; as always, it’s the junior partner of a team who usually gets pinned. In singles matches, because it is at the Midcard level, the wrestler will be more of an equal in the match and while it will be clear his opponent is the better man, the young wrestler will come out of the match looking like he really belongs at that level.</p><p> </p><p> The wrestler is typically closing in on eight years before he gets to move up the card a little more. You’ll probably start to see him in six-man main events where he’ll usually drop the fall or if the promotion wants to start people getting behind him, he might get to pin the junior member of the opposing team. It’s also at this stage where might start vying for the company’s main tag titles which is typically done to get the fans into accepting them at that level before they can move on to the company’s top singles title. The wrestler will be teamed with a current top wrestler where the usual pattern continues; the junior wrestler of the team drops the fall and senior member scores them. </p><p> </p><p> This pattern gets broken when it is felt the wrestler is good enough to be a top singles wrestler, and if a junior member of one team beats the veteran member of the opposing team it’s a big deal. Top stars in Japan are protected and rarely do jobs so that when they do, it is big news and it means something. When this happens you can take it to mean the wrestler in question is being put in line for move to the top level; whether he can stay there is reliant on how good he is, because Japanese fans rarely accept sub-par talent at the top of the card. </p><p> </p><p> So, the wrestler has made all the way to a shot at the company’s main title. And loses. </p><p> </p><p> Because he is still growing, and while his positioning has made it clear that he can make it to the top, he has to be seen to ‘grow’ to the level where, if the promotion feels he is right for the spot, it will be accepted for him to become the ‘Ace’ of the company. A native wrestler in Japan rarely wins a major singles title on his first try for the same reason a rookie never beats a veteran; he has to be seen to have earned his spot, by growing in stature and growing in talent. It’s a similar deal as when the WWF fans turned on The Rock when he beat Triple for the IC Title in early 1997; he hadn’t earned the spot he was put in. For a Japanese example, when New Japan decided to get behind Shinsuke Nakamura in his rookie year and have him beat Hiroyoshi Tenzan for the IWGP title, a lot of fans did not accept Nakamura because he was still a rookie and didn’t feel he had earned the spot he was put in. </p><p> </p><p> Once he has had that first title match, however, the wrestler has usually ‘made his bones’ as a main event star. He’ll still do jobs to main event stars, because he isn’t a ‘top’ star, but the wrestler is now at the stage where he gets the Young Boy tag partner to set up the hot tag and will be the one who faces the Young Boys in singles matches to beat them up and let them show ‘fire’.</p><p> </p><p> This guide is general, and sometimes a promotion will do things differently for whatever reason (case in point, Shinsuke Nakamura), however what’s been outlined here is the usual pattern for rookie wrestlers in Japan. In short, they have to earn their spot on the card and show they have the talent to be at their current level because only then will fans accept them naturally progressing up the card.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><p> Does this apply to foreign workers or only Japanese workers?</p><p> </p><p> And also great read! This is going to help me so much with my TEW game!</p>

[Infernalmiko]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Azul" data-cite="Azul" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="30254" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Does this apply to foreign workers or only Japanese workers?<p> </p><p> And also great read! This is going to help me so much with my TEW game!</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> <span style="color:#4B0082;">I'd say this relates to both foreign and natives. King Fale and Tama Tonga went through a period of losing as well. But wrestlers who are already established in the US won't count as young lions. </span></p>

[Azul]

I'd say this relates to both foreign and natives. King Fale and Tama Tonga went through a period of losing as well. But wrestlers who are already established in the US won't count as young lions.

 

 

So the young lion cycle lasts roughly on average 8 years, and if the guy is really good after 5/6 years it is accepted that they can win a mid card title but not the world title until after around 8 years?

[Infernalmiko]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Azul" data-cite="Azul" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="30254" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>So the young lion cycle lasts roughly on average 8 years, and if the guy is really good after 5/6 years it is accepted that they can win a mid card title but not the world title until after around 8 years?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> <span style="color:#4B0082;">King Fale and Tama Tonga have been with New Japan five years. It took about three years for them to progress past losing every match and that was when they returned from their excursions. Fale won the Intercontinental Title after four years. Tanahashi took about four years to win mid level titles and by seven years he was main event level. Probably earlier, he was really ME when he won the U-30 title or at least very close to it. The young lion period is not as long as it used to be. </span></p><p><span style="color:#4B0082;"> </span></p><p><span style="color:#4B0082;"> I wonder how long most games last.</span></p>

[Azul]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Infernalmiko" data-cite="Infernalmiko" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="30254" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><span style="color:#4B0082;">King Fale and Tama Tonga have been with New Japan five years. It took about three years for them to progress past losing every match and that was when they returned from their excursions. Fale won the Intercontinental Title after four years. Tanahashi took about four years to win mid level titles and by seven years he was main event level. Probably earlier, he was really ME when he won the U-30 title or at least very close to it. The young lion period is not as long as it used to be. </span><p><span style="color:#4B0082;"> </span></p><p><span style="color:#4B0082;"> I wonder how long most games last.</span></p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Ok thanks!</p>

[Jaysin]

Can't believe it's been two and half years since anyone posted here, but Dragon Gate just announced the Dragon Gate Network. $13 a month.

[Big Roguey]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Jaysin" data-cite="Jaysin" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="30254" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Can't believe it's been two and half years since anyone posted here, but Dragon Gate just announced the Dragon Gate Network. $13 a month.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It's been a thing since April but DG were in such a lull I don't think anyone bothered until now. Losing CIMA and Shingo is big but PAC coming back has given the promotion the shot in the arm its needed.</p><p> </p><p> For anyone looking to jump aboard, <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/9kr9qe/a_rough_guide_to_dragon_gate_contains_spoilers/" rel="external nofollow">this </a>is a really good post on reddit that sums up Dragon Gate as it stands.</p>

[Jaysin]

<p>I just saw the post on lordsofpain and assumed it was new. I can't afford the $13 a month right now, but it's something I've got my eye on at some point. Do they have their back log of shows on there? Looking for older shows. There's a match between K-ness and Dragon Kid that blew my mind years ago and I'd love to watch it again. </p><p> </p><p>

It was a 2/3 falls match with their masks on the line I believe.</p>

[Big Roguey]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Jaysin" data-cite="Jaysin" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="30254" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I just saw the post on lordsofpain and assumed it was new. I can't afford the $13 a month right now, but it's something I've got my eye on at some point. Do they have their back log of shows on there? Looking for older shows. There's a match between K-ness and Dragon Kid that blew my mind years ago and I'd love to watch it again. <p> </p><p> It was a 2/3 falls match with their masks on the line I believe.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I think they're planning for the full DG & Toryumon back catalogue to be on the $13 tier. There is a second tier that's like $9 iirc that gives you access to live events and VOD (don't quote me on this as I'm not sure, haven't subbed yet to check).</p>

[Jaysin]

Didn't see a Noah or DDT thread, so pumping this.

 

Just signed up for WrestleUniverse in hopes they had classic Noah content. A little bummed they don't. Didn't realize they didn't have the rights to the shows. Is there anywhere to see classic Noah stuff?

 

That said, I'm wanting to give DDT and Tokyo Joshi Pro a shot. I really enjoyed Maki Itoh in her few AEW appearances. Any suggestions for matches/shows to watch from anything on WU?

[Questlove]

Didn't see a Noah or DDT thread, so pumping this.

 

Just signed up for WrestleUniverse in hopes they had classic Noah content. A little bummed they don't. Didn't realize they didn't have the rights to the shows. Is there anywhere to see classic Noah stuff?

 

That said, I'm wanting to give DDT and Tokyo Joshi Pro a shot. I really enjoyed Maki Itoh in her few AEW appearances. Any suggestions for matches/shows to watch from anything on WU?

 

Kawasaki Strong from this year is an absolute blast top to bottom, the last 2 matches in particular are great.

 

Ultimate Party 2019 is a near 7 hour show that doesn't feel nearly that long because of its variety and pacing, also has one of the best DDT main events of all time in HARASHIMA vs. Konosuke Takeshita in a double title match.

 

Wrestle Peter Pan 2019, my personal favourite of any DDT show I've seen. It's another super long show (WPP is basically their Wrestlemania) but it never drags. Unbelievable must see main event.

 

Street Wrestling In Tokyo Dome. You might have already seen this match because it's pretty iconic, but I can't not mention it. This was the first (and only, so far) time DDT ever ran the Tokyo Dome and they did it in true DDT style by deciding to put on an empty arena match between Sanshiro Takagi and Minoru Suzuki. That's the whole show. It's as amazing as it sounds.

 

If you're up for giving current NOAH a try I'd watch Go Shiozaki vs. Takashi Sugiura from Final Chronicle, it's an absolute war and the peak of Shiozaki's amazing GHC run in 2020.

[Jaysin]

Thanks! I'll check all that out this week since I only work one day.

[CGN91]

Jesus christ this thread is dusted lol 

I watched the recent GLEAT show from August 24 and I had a blast again. Kento vs Izuchi was a cool match, the tag title match was pretty decent and the main event between El Lindaman and DOUKI was very good. GLEAT is absolute fun at the moment and is so unique too. I like their roster so much and what they're doing with some people like Kawakami who were pretty much "dead" in their previous companies.

[The Swanton825]

I'm super out of touch with the current puro trends so I'm sure I missed something, I read that GLEAT take a lot of UWFi influence but the highlights I've found so far look too choreographed to be shoot style. Is this one of those things like what Big Japan does (once again, out of touch so I have no idea if they've gone downhill) where they split the roster between different styles and GLEAT has a puro side and a shoot side?

Edited August 27, 2022 by The Swanton825

[CGN91]

@The Swanton825 Yea it's bascially two brands within the promotion. They are doing seperate shows, but also shows with both styles combined. The show I was speaking of was a "normal" pro-wrestling show. You can watch it on their YouTube channel --> HERE

 

Speaking of Big Japan, Hideyoshi Kamitani just won the vacant Death Match title.

Edited August 28, 2022 by CGN91

[The Swanton825]

Oh nice! I'm a tightwad, so being able to watch them on YouTube is a big plus!

[CGN91]

FREEDOMS are still going strong. They're still mop the floor with BJW's death match division, it's not funny lol Some people on here follow me on twitter and are aware of me hyping FREEDOMS. If you're into death match stuff, FREEDOMS is the way to go. Can't wait to see the recent Tokyo Death Match Carnival show where Drew Parker versus Daisuke Masaoka for the King of FREEDOM World title happened.

[The Swanton825]

So watch GLEAT has made me want to get back into puro and other wrestling outside the big boys in the US. I seriously lapsed in my wrestling fandom back in 2019-ish so I'm super out of touch with current trends and my crappy attention span makes sticking with one promotion for a long period of time kind of difficult. Are there any good "all-in-one" choices for legal (I feel like I shouldn't need to make this part clear, but just in case) streaming sites when it comes to wrestling?