This game relies way too much on luck.

[Cyhort]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Truly" data-cite="Truly" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37113" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'm willing to go out on a limb and guess that you're constantly trying to go for your High-level moves or Finishers early in the match. That WON'T work, no matter how high your skills are, you always have to wear your opponent down early in the match before jumping for the kill.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Not at all, I almost never go for finishers and I rarely go for high level moves unless I have green momentum. I know how to play the game, and I have a pretty decent moveset with mostly low and mid level moves, I just keep getting screwed by the dice roll. I can beat a guy handedly in one match then in the rematch I get slaughtered with no reversals, blocks, braces or avoidance working for me. </p><p> </p><p> And I did look at calculation, I know what the system is trying to do with subtracting/adding percentages based on skill levels and other factors, but in the end it all comes down to a random dice roll and not really any skill on the players part besides trying to stack the deck in favor of a good roll as much as possible. Which would be almost ok, if I could ever feel like anything I did was more than just blind luck. I dunno, if I had a suggestion about how it could be done differently I'd give it, even though I wouldn't expect Adam to run out and remake the whole game from scratch, but I don't. I just know that I want more control over what happens in a game that I'm playing.</p>

[Tom Bombadil]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Cyhort" data-cite="Cyhort" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37113" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>but in the end it all comes down to a random dice roll and not really any skill on the players part besides trying to stack the deck in favor of a good roll as much as possible. Which would be almost ok, if I could ever feel like anything I did was more than just blind luck.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I feel like you can make this complaint about almost any game that has any sort of significant random element, though.</p>

[LucianCarter]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37113" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>and not really any skill on the players part besides trying to stack the deck in favor of a good roll as much as possible</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> How is that not skill?</p>

[mumbles]

<p>I don't have a hard time winning matches. I play to my wrestler's strength's and it usually goes in my favor. I use the calculator too sometimes. </p><p> </p><p>

I'm not the best at having highly rated matches though. I have a hard time getting better than two stars. When I try to have better matches, that's also when I sometimes loose matches because I have to let the computer hit me a lot if I want something better than two stars.</p>

[ksbass]

<p>randomness and luck</p><p> </p><p>

Is there a hidden "bad luck" factor for created characters? I have tested the random number generator by replaying the same match seven times and have found that my character's average roll is much higher than the CPU controlled character's. By a margin of 200+. This is not testing what moves work, literally just looking at calculation and checking roll numbers.</p>

[LucianCarter]

7 matches is not nearly enough to get a decent sample. Randomness is exactly that, random. 7 matches with low rolls is simply a slight statistical skew. It would take hundreds, if not thousands of matches before the effects of luck could be expected to balance out perfectly.

[ksbass]

sample size

 

That is well over 1200 rolls. (yes, I wrote them down) They sample polling for a population of 300 million on those kinds of samples. I may not be a statistician, but something doesn't feel right. And I will never make it to 100 matches if I don't feel I even have a prayer of ever winning.

 

And the three consecutive matches where the AI rolled 20 or less on the match ending finisher is not confidence inspiring either.

[BobbyRogers]

I guess my game copy has good luck coded in because I win most of my matches.

[Blake Trask]

<p>Even with all of the 'annoying BS' type stuff I have seen pulled (and raged about plenty on the chat), I have seen myself do the exact same thing in the opposite direction. This is why I have posted a thing of me beating someone in 2 and a half minutes and winning off things with low CoW.</p><p> </p><p>

And even WITH the number of losses I've taken whilst playing to frustrating stuff... I still have a win/loss ratio of something like 10:1, and this is using a RTL character with fairly uninspiring stats. I'd say 50% of the time I've been bodied have been against people who are better than me in key areas and went on a lucky streak.</p><p> </p><p>

Of course - of course there is luck involved in this game, it uses random seed values.</p><p> </p><p>

But it should be and is very very possible to overcome just 'luck' by understanding how the game is played and working to your advantages. Wrespi is inherently frustrating to lose in because of how it works, but I really, genuinely don't think there's any kind of AI bias involved</p>

[VBigB]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ksbass" data-cite="ksbass" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37113" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>That is well over 1200 rolls. (yes, I wrote them down) They sample polling for a population of 300 million on those kinds of samples. I may not be a statistician, but something doesn't feel right. And I will never make it to 100 matches if I don't feel I even have a prayer of ever winning.<p> </p><p> And the three consecutive matches where the AI rolled 20 or less on the match ending finisher is not confidence inspiring either.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Man these are XCOM discussions all over again. I pulled this from the web as I found it funny.</p><p> </p><p> "Your shot either hits or it doesn’t, and then damage is randomly calculated thereafter. But the key thing is whether the shot connects. Waste your chances with 25% shots, and you’ll soon get overpowered. It’s better to maneuver around, destroy the aliens’ cover, and then shoot with an 85% chance. And when it misses, you can exclaim stupid things like “My 85% shot missed! What’s the chances of that!” (Spoiler: 15%).</p><p> </p><p> The turn-based game is a mixture of moving carefully to cover, and managing your odds. Different soldiers may have different odds of hitting the same alien, so you choose who to take which shot on which alien in which order to maximise your chances of success. Effectively, you’re navigating a probability tree, and the skill is in finding the optimal path. Of course, it’s all still random, so even your best strategy can go horribly awry: when your 95% shot misses, and your backup 85% shot misses, you feel slightly aggrieved (exercise for the reader: what’s the chances of that, eh?)"</p>

[ShadowedFlames]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="VBigB" data-cite="VBigB" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37113" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Man these are XCOM discussions all over again. I pulled this from the web as I found it funny.<p> </p><p> "Your shot either hits or it doesn’t, and then damage is randomly calculated thereafter. But the key thing is whether the shot connects. Waste your chances with 25% shots, and you’ll soon get overpowered. It’s better to maneuver around, destroy the aliens’ cover, and then shoot with an 85% chance. And when it misses, you can exclaim stupid things like “My 85% shot missed! What’s the chances of that!” (Spoiler: 15%).</p><p> </p><p> The turn-based game is a mixture of moving carefully to cover, and managing your odds. Different soldiers may have different odds of hitting the same alien, so you choose who to take which shot on which alien in which order to maximise your chances of success. Effectively, you’re navigating a probability tree, and the skill is in finding the optimal path. Of course, it’s all still random, so even your best strategy can go horribly awry: when your 95% shot misses, and your backup 85% shot misses, you feel slightly aggrieved (exercise for the reader: what’s the chances of that, eh?)"</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Not a stats guy, but is it 0.75%? (0.05 × 0.15 = 0.0075)</p><p> </p><p> I've had my characters roll a 1 on CoH, and the opponent kick out of a 990 CoW. These things happen, and while I might grumble at chance, I just accept it and move on. Sometimes the RNG gods are spiteful like that.</p>

[LucianCarter]

I did wonder how long it would take, given that the game is completely transparent, for someone to accuse the RNG of being rigged.

[ksbass]

<p>I see someone wants to take this to a personal level. If you look back, the original question was about a hidden destiny trait like in TEW.</p><p> </p><p>

But I guess asking questions about anything that looks off (even if explainable) about a Ryland game (all of which I have) is a little too much for some.</p>

[Adam Ryland]

No, there is nothing hidden. It's a standard 1 to 1000 random number generator that has its seed reset regularly. Nothing alters or affects the number between generation and being displayed on screen.

 

There are many good articles on randomness out there (this one, for example) that explain why you will sometimes see the results look non-random, and please remember than 1200 is not a large sample anyway!

[Derek DiBenedetto]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37113" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>No, there is nothing hidden. It's a standard 1 to 1000 random number generator that has its seed reset regularly. <strong>Nothing</strong> alters or affects the number between generation and being displayed on screen.<p> </p><p> There are many good articles on randomness out there (<a href="http://www.random.org/analysis/" rel="external nofollow">this one, for example</a>) that explain why you will sometimes see the results look non-random, and please remember than 1200 is not a large sample anyway!</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I take the same approach, a frequently re-seeded generator, meaning results will be fairly random, but occasional runs of seeming "bad luck" can and do happen. It's the nature of any game utilizing randomness in any fashion.</p>

[RayW]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Derek DiBenedetto" data-cite="Derek DiBenedetto" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37113" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I take the same approach, a frequently re-seeded generator, meaning results will be fairly random, but occasional runs of seeming "bad luck" can and do happen. It's the nature of any game utilizing randomness in any fashion.</div></blockquote><p> I actually love it when I am on a run of bad luck, and in this game, a losing streak. I know I <strong>will</strong> break it, and when I do, it's great. I started my current RTL game on a losing streak, I'm now on a nine match winning streak. Brilliant.</p>

[Carparama]

Damnit, this whole thread makes me want to buy the game...!

[Carparama]

I ended up buying this, and after screwing a few things up, I started a new RtL game and it's a lot of fun. I can see where some of the "bad luck" will affect your character, but hey. That's where the skill comes in. Stacking the deck in your favour.

[Blackman]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Carparama" data-cite="Carparama" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37113" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I ended up buying this, and after screwing a few things up, I started a new RtL game and it's a lot of fun. I can see where some of the "bad luck" will affect your character, but hey. That's where the skill comes in. Stacking the deck in your favour.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> If it's all skill-based, it'll become boring quickly. Skill-based games with no player2player interaction require a limited time to master. After that it's just keeping your wits about you and applying what works. That's it. Thankfully there's some luck that allows for some variance. Might be frustrating to lose without making errors, but pull yourself up to the fact that you've done all you can to maximise your odds.</p><p> </p><p> I will be trying out the game tonight. For the demo I just simulated one match, which was ok. Too bad the game is episodic of nature. I would've totally loved if it would be more like TEW in terms of progression. Oh well, for the reduced price tag, it's worth trying.</p>

[bigtplaystew]

It's not impossible to be undefeated in this game because it doesn't cheat. The game does rely heavily on luck but it's a game that's essentially a series of dice rolls with a high random element. That's what the game is lol. I don't get why people are still complaining about it.

[RayW]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="bigtplaystew" data-cite="bigtplaystew" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37113" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It's not impossible to be undefeated in this game because it doesn't cheat. The game does rely heavily on luck but it's a game that's essentially a series of dice rolls with a high random element. That's what the game is lol. I don't get why people are still complaining about it.</div></blockquote><p> Agreed. Some of the best RPG games in history have relied on the luck of the roll. No one complains about them.</p>

[Lifebleeder]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="bigtplaystew" data-cite="bigtplaystew" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37113" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It's not impossible to be undefeated in this game because it doesn't cheat. The game does rely heavily on luck but it's a game that's essentially a series of dice rolls with a high random element. That's what the game is lol. I don't get why people are still complaining about it.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Agreed, you can stack the deck in your favor to win. You can select the right moves in your arsenal, and pick the right moves to perform in a match, but it's 100% dice roll after that. If you're not cool with that, this is definitely not the game for you.</p>

[MightyDavidson]

I think your character's skill points should play a larger part of the game though, if your character dwarfs his or her opponent in skills they should have an easier time of it. As opposed to the luck of the die handing an inferior opponent the victory. That's caused me to fail quite a few storylines already. The skill of the character ought to count for more then the die roll.

[mitsukaikira]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="MightyDavidson" data-cite="MightyDavidson" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="37113" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think your character's skill points should play a larger part of the game though, if your character dwarfs his or her opponent in skills they should have an easier time of it. As opposed to the luck of the die handing an inferior opponent the victory. That's caused me to fail quite a few storylines already. The skill of the character ought to count for more then the die roll.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> How else would they count outside of roll adjustments? The way it is set up currently is pretty much the best/only way to do it. If you have a higher rating in a stat than your opponent, then you are better at it and have a better chance of having a move from that stat land.</p>

[Angry_Gamer]

I was thinking this too, until I found out how to play it and how to brace at the beginning of the match up. My guy is a submission guy, so I use a lot of standing submissions and ground moves to wear down my opponent, I got a better chance of doing this than most other things. I often go on the streaks of luck because I use things the give me a high chance hitting. What I liked about the game is even if you are going against a guy with way more speed than you the out of 1,000 role ensures you wouldn't be forever stuck in a loop where speed wins out (avoids). Without the luck stat, the game would be broken and there would be NO WAY out of loops. You can avoid being hit with unlucky streaks by choosing moves that work well AGAINST your opponent, and GOOD for you.