Fight/game engine discussions

[Rufusld]

after 11 years, One north south choke, one leglock, and no D'arce, or an other creative submission (before the patch that fix the leglock)

 

I hope it will be fixed in the future.

 

My suggestion is: fighters who have high creative subs skill should go for the whole variety of creative subs (all of them including leglocks) from time to time, if opportunity arise. Fighters who have a special submission combat attribute should go for the particular technique once on the ground. For example D'arce choke master once on the ground will primarily look for a specific position to execute a D'arce choke.

[Celuwyn]

I hope it will be fixed in the future.

 

My suggestion is: fighters who have high creative subs skill should go for the whole variety of creative subs (all of them including leglocks) from time to time, if opportunity arise. Fighters who have a special submission combat attribute should go for the particular technique once on the ground. For example D'arce choke master once on the ground will primarily look for a specific position to execute a D'arce choke.

 

Yes, like the fighter with the "constant takedown" attribute will only go for the takedown. It's more realistic for guys like Rousimar Palhares

[pdandy]

I don't see how the patch helped leg locks. I'm 13 years in and there have been 4 total.

[Rufusld]

Yes, like the fighter with the "constant takedown" attribute will only go for the takedown. It's more realistic for guys like Rousimar Palhares

 

Yes. And for example a high class submission grappler like Roger Gracie or Jake Shields (or any high class Jiu Jitsu fighter with no favorite submission tehnique) will go for the whole array of holds if you set their creative sub skills to high.

[Rufusld]

I don't see how the patch helped leg locks. I'm 13 years in and there have been 4 total.

 

Unfortunately, only Leg lock masters attempt them and I know only 2 fighters with such attribute in the default database... Try simulating Seth O'breen for a few fights.

[pdandy]

Unfortunately, only Leg lock masters attempt them and I know only 2 fighters with such attribute in the default database... Try simulating Seth O'breen for a few fights.

 

As a matter of fact he is one of the 4

 

It's horrible that a lot of the aspects of the fight engine depend on the new attribute feature (as you mentioned) but the game/db designer was stingy with stamping attributes onto default fighters and regens.

[Judoku1819]

It's horrible that a lot of the aspects of the fight engine depend on the new attribute feature (as you mentioned) but the game/db designer was stingy with stamping attributes onto default fighters and regens.

 

Although I very much agree if you think of the time it would take to add attributes to every fighter in the database (which is how it should be) would take. Obviously the time should have been made but it is the first time WMMA has used this new attribute feature and like anything I think it will be more fleshed out in versions to come

[pdandy]

Although I very much agree if you think of the time it would take to add attributes to every fighter in the database (which is how it should be) would take. Obviously the time should have been made but it is the first time WMMA has used this new attribute feature and like anything I think it will be more fleshed out in versions to come

 

Absolutely true. For the default db, I understand we can take care of adding the attributes ourselves rather than have Adam's team spend huge amounts of time on it. But as a consolation, it would be nice to at least have attributes doled out to regens more frequently by the game. That seems like a more reasonable request and better use of the dev team's time.

[Judoku1819]

Absolutely true. For the default db, I understand we can take care of adding the attributes ourselves rather than have Adam's team spend huge amounts of time on it. But as a consolation, it would be nice to at least have attributes doled out to regens more frequently by the game. That seems like a more reasonable request and better use of the dev team's time.

 

Absolutely! I do believe it has been mentioned in the suggestion forum so hopefully we will see a patch that addresses that soon

[Donners]

Here is a picture of my 7 years of mma, as you can see the first 3 years everything was about the same. Then just before 1993 came out, I patched the 1.14 patch where lowered chin was fixed, but only played 1 month before patch 1.15 came out where the knock outs where reduced a bit.

 

Then What I find interesting when looking at both stats is that in my game the TKOs and KOs are around 55% of all fights, and in RL they are around 30%-35% of all fights.

 

So the point of this post is not that I want the game to be like real life, but just to say that the fight engine and fighter stats need some calculations.

 

I would just like to see stats from your games so I can see if mine are just heavy on KO since I am playing a entire random generated mod of if this is happening in everyone else's games.

 

 

Using the default database on the current patch, my current year is going at 41% KOs and 12% TKOs. That's consistent - if anything a little lower - than the last few years, so it's fair to say that's about the standard.

 

In the early years of my save, before KOs were overhauled by a patch, it was around 20-25% each TKO and KO, which is actually closer to reality as you mention.

[Mistat94]

Using the default database on the current patch, my current year is going at 41% KOs and 12% TKOs. That's consistent - if anything a little lower - than the last few years, so it's fair to say that's about the standard.

 

In the early years of my save, before KOs were overhauled by a patch, it was around 20-25% each TKO and KO, which is actually closer to reality as you mention.

 

My biggest problem with the fight engine is that fights end in KO when they would've ended by TKO in WMMA3 (i.e. via ground and pound). Also, that whenever a fighter lands a big strike, their opponent wobbles and is then knocked down. Anybody else think the WMMA3 fight engine was better?

[marcopolio]

My biggest problem with the fight engine is that fights end in KO when they would've ended by TKO in WMMA3 (i.e. via ground and pound). Also, that whenever a fighter lands a big strike, their opponent wobbles and is then knocked down. Anybody else think the WMMA3 fight engine was better?

 

Very much this. More subtlety and differences are required, both in the striking and in the takedowns.

 

High level boxers should be throwing different strikes to high level muay thai fighters, vs relatively unskilled wrestlers (in striking). For instance, Rick Story is a pretty good wrestle/boxer with functional MMA boxing. For comparison, Al Iaquinta is a good offensive MMA boxer, who can throw a much more advance combination (like the left jab, right body straight, left hook, right straight against Lauzon). In further comparison, a higher level boxer might have options for doubling up or tripling up with the same land, like Roy Jones Jr with the hook (obviously, MMA boxing ins't to this level but illustrating a point). However, if they aren't cross trained, they should be more susceptible to TD's and leg kicks etc.

 

As a further to this, Anderson Silva, a high level Muay Thai striker isn't going to throw these combinations but he is going to chain different strikes together, using more knee, kick and elbow options.

 

I think the attributes could be used to deliver these skill levels / nuances. For instance, Cormier should be a World Calibre wrestler (which should also be split between Greco and Freestyle, imo) which opens up much better chain wrestling and TD defence. This should open up more exotic takedowns as well, like the slams of Hendo and Cormier.

 

Equally, world level BJJ guys can cut through the guard better, Sambo guys through casting punches, TKD fighters throw flashier kicks, sub wrestling guys have the moves described in the sub wrestling style, judo fighters have the entry to clinch TD's that you see Lombard and Akiyama throwing, krav maga guys get smashed by everyone with a real martial art.

 

With these subtleties applied, you can really see how the fight engine could become more varied, with more options for fighting styles. I also think you should have a style for a pure MMA fighter, someone (like Rory MacDonald) who came through training everything and combines the disciplines well but without the technical mastery of a specialist who cross trained.

 

No idea if the engine is capable of this...

 

To weigh in on the TD's point of the thread as well: far too many (like, hugely skewed too many) TD's are belly to belly suplex and leg sweeps.

[Blackman]

To weigh in on the TD's point of the thread as well: far too many (like, hugely skewed too many) TD's are belly to belly suplex and leg sweeps.

 

True (though I haven't played in a while). I don't know if it's just cosmetic (a name) or if there's other things involved like different stamina loss, match excitement, etc.

 

As for TKO/KO: I don't mind. Bruce Buffer has switched them time and time again to the level it's just kinda the same. (though it's annoying if you like stats like me )

[Daffanka]

Very much this. More subtlety and differences are required, both in the striking and in the takedowns.

 

High level boxers should be throwing different strikes to high level muay thai fighters, vs relatively unskilled wrestlers (in striking). For instance, Rick Story is a pretty good wrestle/boxer with functional MMA boxing. For comparison, Al Iaquinta is a good offensive MMA boxer, who can throw a much more advance combination (like the left jab, right body straight, left hook, right straight against Lauzon). In further comparison, a higher level boxer might have options for doubling up or tripling up with the same land, like Roy Jones Jr with the hook (obviously, MMA boxing ins't to this level but illustrating a point). However, if they aren't cross trained, they should be more susceptible to TD's and leg kicks etc.

 

As a further to this, Anderson Silva, a high level Muay Thai striker isn't going to throw these combinations but he is going to chain different strikes together, using more knee, kick and elbow options.

 

I think the attributes could be used to deliver these skill levels / nuances. For instance, Cormier should be a World Calibre wrestler (which should also be split between Greco and Freestyle, imo) which opens up much better chain wrestling and TD defence. This should open up more exotic takedowns as well, like the slams of Hendo and Cormier.

 

Equally, world level BJJ guys can cut through the guard better, Sambo guys through casting punches, TKD fighters throw flashier kicks, sub wrestling guys have the moves described in the sub wrestling style, judo fighters have the entry to clinch TD's that you see Lombard and Akiyama throwing, krav maga guys get smashed by everyone with a real martial art.

 

With these subtleties applied, you can really see how the fight engine could become more varied, with more options for fighting styles. I also think you should have a style for a pure MMA fighter, someone (like Rory MacDonald) who came through training everything and combines the disciplines well but without the technical mastery of a specialist who cross trained.

 

No idea if the engine is capable of this...

 

To weigh in on the TD's point of the thread as well: far too many (like, hugely skewed too many) TD's are belly to belly suplex and leg sweeps.

 

Agreed with everything, concise and on point post. Thumbs up.

[Celuwyn]

So after five pages.. I think we can make general point in which everybody is OK.

 

- Too much belly to belly, T-Bone, German suplex

 

- Too much Knock down on a groggy opponent (For me, i've never seen a fighter evade a punch for that)

 

-Certains submission are "broken", IE D'arce Choke, North south choke, Leglock. They will only suceed with very very very much luck, or with attribute.

 

-The referee doesn't give warning, instead he take a point immediately

 

So, do we make a thread for Adam ?

[AlexB]

So after five pages.. I think we can make general point in which everybody is OK.

 

- Too much belly to belly, T-Bone, German suplex

 

- Too much Knock down on a groggy opponent (For me, i've never seen a fighter evade a punch for that)

 

-Certains submission are "broken", IE D'arce Choke, North south choke, Leglock. They will only suceed with very very very much luck, or with attribute.

 

-The referee doesn't give warning, instead he take a point immediately

 

So, do we make a thread for Adam ?

 

I have seen people miss groggy opponents multiple times (although its still only about 10% of the time at max). What I haven't seen is the groggy opponent evade the strike, or shoot for a takedown like used to happen in WMMA3.

 

Plus we've got the imbalance in takedowns as per the other thread, variety of strikes or lack thereof, but agree with the main points.

[Celuwyn]

I have seen people miss groggy opponents multiple times (although its still only about 10% of the time at max). What I haven't seen is the groggy opponent evade the strike, or shoot for a takedown like used to happen in WMMA3.

 

Plus we've got the imbalance in takedowns as per the other thread, variety of strikes or lack thereof, but agree with the main points.

 

You can retire or add point to that list if you want. When we will all agree, i think we can make a thread in the suggestion forum

[Blackman]

Thanks for recapping all the pages. In my own (very limited) experience, I've had special submissions happen once or twice with succes, but I definitely agree with the other 3 points. But feel free to post the recap in the tech forum. Don't forget to reference this thread. The sooner we post, the sooner changes might come.

[Rufusld]

So after five pages.. I think we can make general point in which everybody is OK.

 

- Too much belly to belly, T-Bone, German suplex

 

- Too much Knock down on a groggy opponent (For me, i've never seen a fighter evade a punch for that)

 

-Certains submission are "broken", IE D'arce Choke, North south choke, Leglock. They will only suceed with very very very much luck, or with attribute.

 

-The referee doesn't give warning, instead he take a point immediately

 

So, do we make a thread for Adam ?

agree with everything. especially submissions must be fixed.

[pdandy]

Agree with Celuwyn that it is about time to open a suggestion/tech support thread so Adam can see all the analysis in one concise post. I would add in the takedown/clinch balancing as mentioned by AlexB.

[jsilv0]

I just had a north-south choke happen

[LeBlancX]

So i was re-playing WMMA 3 earlier the day, and yeah the game engine was IMO so much better. The AI was much smarter during a fight(when groggy sometimes trying for a takedown, etc.), in general i feel there are plenty of texts missing from WMMA3. While in WMMA 4 i only see "Fighter A hits a jab, but fails to connect with an hook. Fighter B is wobbly." and in WMMA 3 it was soooo much more different for my liking, hopefully there can be something done about it. Overall i feel like the WMMA 4 texts are much more "generic".

[Celuwyn]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="LeBlancX" data-cite="LeBlancX" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="38873" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>So i was re-playing WMMA 3 earlier the day, and yeah the game engine was IMO so much better. The AI was much smarter during a fight(when groggy sometimes trying for a takedown, etc.), in general i feel there are plenty of texts missing from WMMA3. While in WMMA 4 i only see "Fighter A hits a jab, but fails to connect with an hook. Fighter B is wobbly." and in WMMA 3 it was soooo much more different for my liking, hopefully there can be something done about it. Overall i feel like the WMMA 4 texts are much more "generic".</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah. The exchange between fighter are good, but.. yeah.. it's more generic</p>

[Celuwyn]

<p>So, Adam has just released a patch with some of our suggestion.</p><p> </p><p>

That's some speed.</p><p> </p><p>

Post your thought on the patch here <img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

[LeBlancX]

Kudos to Mr. Ryland!