PSA: It's OK to get penalised for things in segments!

[D-Lyrium]

This has been building inside me for a while and I just wanted to spread a little positive reinforcement today.

 

IT'S OK TO GET PENALISED FOR THINGS SOMETIMES. IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE DOING ANYTHING WRONG (except in some circumstances. Context is key).

 

A large number of people, I'd possibly even say "most people" at this point judging by the posts I'm reading on the boards, seem to have this idea that if they get any negative road agent notes, or a warning about getting a penalty for a match or a segment, that must mean they "can't do it" or it's "not designed to work" the way they want it to. This is especially true when it comes to products. Then they get frustrated that "the game won't let them" run the shows they want to run. Yes, it will. Your desire for unrealistic levels of perfection is what's stopping you from running that show, not the game or your product.

 

Products are a broad stroke, a general idea of what your shows are about. The game can't know or account for every single segment you ever run, it can only set out a guideline that the main thrust of your company (the important matches, main events and so on) should follow. Products are not there to tell you what you "can" and "can't" do on your shows. They're just telling you what your fans want and don't want to see. There's a difference between those two things! The main event and the more important matches should probably mostly follow the product, because that's what fans are paying for, but it does not mean that you shouldn't run a segment just because you think you're going to get penalised for it - within reason. Obviously running a deathmatch followed by a 20 minute risque angle in a family friendly old-school wrestling company that doesn't like angles much is going to cause you some problems!

 

Maybe the audience might not like that 8 minute match as much as you'd hoped, but that's FINE if the wrestlers are unknowns or don't have the stamina to go longer. Maybe they won't like that 10 minute angle between two midcarders in a company that doesn't like angles much, but you really want to have them cut a promo? Fine, do it! They have 2+hrs of wrestling to watch (in most cases). As long as it's not your main event, roll with it. Do what you want. Hell, sometimes if it IS your main event, roll with it anyway. The chances of the penalty being so severe that it ruins the match entirely are pretty small (depending on the type of penalty, of course).

 

Remember that time The Barbarian, Meng and The Warlord showed up in CHIKARA? They were ancient, could barely move, and other than Meng weren't even very good in their prime. It had no place in a lucha-inspired company according to their "product". But it was a cool moment! Nostalgia rules. The match sucked, obviously, but it was fun, it went about 10 minutes ("too short!" the TEW digital fanbase moaned). We had a laugh though. Then we all got on with our lives. IIRC the main event in that one was Tommy Dreamer, Jerry Lynn and 2 Cold Scorpio vs. some WWF guys (Justin Credible, X-Pac and Tatanka), much more fun than it should've been! Anyway, I disgress. Preeetty sure in TEW that Meng match would've got some hefty penalties. Does that mean CHIKARA shouldn't have done it? They wanted to, it was fun, it didn't affect anything in the long run. That match had two obvious purposes: provide a cool nostalgic moment for the fans, and get Mike Bennett and the ROH guys over as heels who like to ruin your childhood memories. It may not have been a classic, but it accomplished both of those goals.

 

Another example from a recent test game: My product says that there's a cap on match ratings if the match is less than 15 minutes, and important matches are expected to be longer. Fine. Noted.

 

That does not mean that my opener between a guy wrestling his second match out of wrestling school, and 45 year old jobber with great basics but no stamina, should be a 15 minute affair. Six minutes is fine. Yes, it'll be penalised, but it's the opening match of the show between a green rookie and an old man. Getting penalised is fine! What's the best rating I could possibly hope for here? 20? 22? How bad is this penalty going to possibly be if the match is already in the low 20s? (It scored a 19 if you're wondering, rookie was off his game).

 

The rookie will learn, and get better. Someday he'll be able to have meaningful 15 minute matches. If I say "no, sorry, you can't wrestle here because you're too bad to go 15 minutes in the ring" then he'll never improve and never get to the point where he's good enough to move up the card.

 

In addition, nobody knows who the hell he is! Even if as a fan you're expecting this company to put matches around 15 minutes, you're not going to want to see 15 minutes of unknown rookie vs. old man. Nobody expects to sit down and watch a wrestling show and have no complaints about any match on the entire card.

 

Elsewhere on this card I had Quake, who's a big, powerhouse brawler. Doesn't really fit the product, but I wanted a "monster heel" type guy who I could feasibly claim was home-grown and wasn't a terrible wrestler, Quake fitted the bill. Do the fans want to see Quake go 15 minutes beating up some jobber? Not really. So he went 6 minutes. Dominated his opponent, who sold like a champ for him. Was it match of the night? No, but 29 is pretty respectable in this company. Eventually Quake will get over (hopefully...), and can wrestle "real" opponents. Maybe he won't ever go 15 minutes, but maybe he will. If he can build his (pretty decent) skills up enough that he can hold his own in the ring, he might go on to be an integral part of the main event scene. I'll never know unless I build him up and I can't do that in 15 minute matches, but I don't have to just because my product says the fans expect it.

 

Some matches will be "too long", some will be "too short", some will be "too dangerous", some workers will be knackered by the end of them. It's all good! Did that match serve the purpose you booked it for? Yes? Did it suck entirely and get a rating so low that everyone was embarrassed to be a part of it? No? Then it's all good! Who cares if it could've scored a few points higher?

 

Sometimes, it doesn't matter even if it IS the main event.

 

Example: My company's popularity is at 20 right now. I just booked a main event between Merle O'Curle and Walter Morgan. It went 25 minutes, as the fans would've expected it to. It was the main event of a pure-ish wrestling show. The road agent told me that Morgan can't go that long. He was right, Morgan was knackered by the end bless him, but did that really ruin the match that much?

 

It scored a 51. That's a STELLAR main event for my company. It's more than double my popularity - a far better match than my company is expected to produce. There are matches on television shows by big companies worse than this. I struggle to believe it would've got much higher than that if it was 15 minutes and Morgan wasn't tired by the end. The extra length (boosted by the fact it was a Storytelling match which benefits from being longer anyway) far outweighed, or at the very least cancelled out, the fact that old man Morgan was a bit gassed at the end.

 

I'm not going to start booking deathmatches or comedy bouts on my next card. I'm not going to hire Ripper Lestat, or have a 15 minute bikini contest. But having Walter Morgan wrestle 10 minutes longer than he "should have" or an unknown rookie wrestle ten minutes less than the fans "expect" is PERFECTLY FINE.

 

Not everything has to be perfect to be great. Don't feel that your product "doesn't allow you" to do what you want. If you find yourself wanting to constantly go against your product and book things even in important matches that your product doesn't like, you have the wrong product, clearly. But the product is a guideline. Your product tells you what the fans want. Not what you must give them. Your road agents are giving you suggestions, not orders. You can, and should, be able to handle a few penalties here and there and still produce top quality content.

 

Stop striving for every segment you ever book to be perfect in the eyes of the TEW match engine. That road just leads to disappointment and frustration. There are some penalties that you should strive to avoid, but not every penalty is avoidable. That's fine.

[Bull]

Pretty much all the points I've been trying to make the last few days, Just didn't have the patience to type it all out, so I thank you for doing so!

[Markw]

Take a bow.

[Jaded]

Love this post! I think the key things people could really do with remembering are that anything other than your main event doesn't matter much if you've got regular focus or main event focus for maths focus, and as you said, sometimes even if your main event is dinged it's not a big deal, particularly when your pop is low anyone. I've been slightly confused that ACPW's fans hate so many of their established guys, but despite this it seems pretty impossible not to pull a 50 rated card with them with even vaguely coherent booking, and with their Quebec popularity at only a bit over half of that, you're going to take them places quickly.

[smw88]

I think these are very valid points, and it makes me want to know how your company develops...

 

Having said that I feel some peoples comments on products are still valid but I won't duplicate here.

[D-Lyrium]

I think these are very valid points, and it makes me want to know how your company develops...

 

Having said that I feel some peoples comments on products are still valid but I won't duplicate here.

 

Aye, I'm not saying that products are perfect and there are no valid issues at all. I don't want it to come across like that. But some of the things I've seen people complaining about are perfectly normal, and do happen during matches/shows in real life, without causing them to be ruined.

 

My main point was "penalty to match rating" is not the same as "huge problem with your booking that needs to be fixed".

[nerodragomir1]

Ive been booking a 93 RW mod of both WWF & WCW. I've been struggling to get a show over 50's. I also have been getting my butt kicked by the "burned out crowed" thing because the mod was set up to have like literally 8 shows in a row. I have no clue how to stop the bleeding on something that long & tiring. Point is, I'm loving it. It's a challenge trying to get good shows, but in a good way. Heck, my roster is pretty terrible, excluding a handful of the obvious guys from that time. I'm in no way afraid to get penalized! I want the challenge of not being able to get crazy high ratings from the jump. Make me earn it! Make me want it! There is no fun or challenge if the game never penalizes you for anything.

[Mattywood]

As someone who was concerned about the various posts I saw about match/angle lengths were being affected with the various products, I appreciate you taking the time to post a thread like this. Now I still like me some options because everyone plays different, but I have no qualms with penalties either. It's why I embraced Crowd Management (aka Perfect Show Theory) on TEW 2016. In fact, it actually made booking with Match Aims better for me to use Crowd Management.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is that it would be nice to be able to tweak or even create new products, or have a User Preference option for match/angle times, etc. In fact, I still support having those kinds of options. Maybe some attributes could be added as suggested by someone else in the Attribute Suggestion thread. But maybe once I'm able to have a chance to play the game, I may come to appreciate this new nuance of strategizing how to book a match/angle that goes above or below the expected match/angle time.

 

I guess if we were to use real world examples, the case could be made that the reason why the 1992 Royal Rumble match is still highly regarded all these years later is because it had star power, as well as a number of workers who had good to great psychology to make it work. Someone else brought up the example of why the Rock/Triple H Iron Man Match worked so well in 2000 in Attitude Era WWF.

 

Again, thanks for your post, D-Lyrium. And I hope I'm making sense when I say I have no qualms with penalties, but do like having options too as well.

[Morti]

Great post D-Lyrium! I agree with your sentiment! Penalties are a part of wrestling, crowds will react like they react and crowds like what they like. What we imagine as bookers won't and should not always work perfectly! <img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/biggrin.png.929299b4c121f473b0026f3d6e74d189.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />

[Levinux]

Great post, D-Lyrium, thank you for it. There is a LOT of posts on the forum and while I try to keep up, I can't. One thing I am seeing though, is things gradually changing towards the 'learning curve' type posts, rather than straight up 'this sucks' posts. I know for me, things that were off-putting at the beginning are now things I have come to love the most.

[codey_v2]

<p>I think simulator fans have a tendency to want to powergame and achieve perfection. Problem is, while TEW is a sim, it's also a <em>creative</em> game. Some people have a problem marrying the two aspects of the game. </p><p> </p><p>

Matches have a cap if they're not 15 minutes? That's cool! Perfect even. When you're booking a show, you're <em>building</em> to the main event. Don't put a match on par with the main event on second, because creatively it just overshadows your main event and from a powergamer perspective you've just wasted it because the second match accounts for almost nothing.</p>

[Capelli King]

I agree with what you are saying and i also think it is "fine", however there is a problem with all this. You are not alone, so if your ratings consistently are poor and your competition is running masterclasses with 80-85 rating when you are pulling off 65-70 ratings, eventually you will start losing out and your own talent will struggle to get over.

[Jaded]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Capelli King" data-cite="Capelli King" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48383" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I agree with what you are saying and i also think it is "fine", however there is a problem with all this. You are not alone, so if your ratings consistently are poor and your competition is running masterclasses with 80-85 rating when you are pulling off 65-70 ratings, eventually you will start losing out and your own talent will struggle to get over.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Agreed, but is it just that you're pulling 65 to 70 ratings because you're still getting used to the game? Did you see my post in the thread you started where I got 83 with USPW?</p>

[WCGreyghost]

I don't like penalties on a philosophical level. I prefer bonuses, which can accomplish the same thing without the negativity associated with a "penalty".

[smw88]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="D-Lyrium" data-cite="D-Lyrium" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48383" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Aye, I'm not saying that products are perfect and there are no valid issues at all. I don't want it to come across like that. But some of the things I've seen people complaining about are perfectly normal, and do happen during matches/shows in real life, without causing them to be ruined.<p> </p><p> My main point was "penalty to match rating" is not the same as "huge problem with your booking that needs to be fixed".</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Oh agreed, I think your post was fine. :-)</p>

[tryker2710]

I agree mostly but am still strongly of the opinion that certain penalties need not apply. The game penalised an "important match" between a Major Star and an Unknown for not going long enough the same as it would between 2 Major Stars. So either I think that "important match" system needs some tweaking or what is or isnt an important match should be put in the hands of the user if there isnt a way to code that fix.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Been trying to convey this same message. Lol

 

To be fair, it’s all psychological. I think Adam should look into rewording some things.

 

Also maybe only use the color red for a severe penalty. Yellow could be for a minor and maybe orange for normal size. But also highlight more bonuses too. If everything seems bad, people will naturally be discouraged. It’s human nature.

[Blackman]

The game penalised an "important match" between a Major Star and an Unknown for not going long enough the same as it would between 2 Major Stars.

 

Especially if it penalizes you afterwards for using an unknown for too long. Gives me that "doomed if you do, doomed if you don't" feeling.

 

The thing is: you're ALREADY penalized for that match by using a worker who is not over, which usually accounts for about half of the rating. It's not called a penalty and it's self-imposed, but the penalty tackles the same issue that is already being accounted for in the game, hence doesn't make sense.

 

And you're just making the obvious points D-Lyrium. I am perfectly fine with the stamina penalty, as it makes perfect sense. It's also not a destructive penalty. The cap also makes perfect sense (at least to me). But you're blatantly ignoring everything else that doesn't make sense.

[consortium11]

Remember that time The Barbarian, Meng and The Warlord showed up in CHIKARA? They were ancient, could barely move, and other than Meng weren't even very good in their prime. It had no place in a lucha-inspired company according to their "product". But it was a cool moment! Nostalgia rules. The match sucked, obviously, but it was fun, it went about 10 minutes ("too short!" the TEW digital fanbase moaned). We had a laugh though. Then we all got on with our lives. IIRC the main event in that one was Tommy Dreamer, Jerry Lynn and 2 Cold Scorpio vs. some WWF guys (Justin Credible, X-Pac and Tatanka), much more fun than it should've been! Anyway, I disgress. Preeetty sure in TEW that Meng match would've got some hefty penalties. Does that mean CHIKARA shouldn't have done it? They wanted to, it was fun, it didn't affect anything in the long run.

 

While I agree with most of your points here (especially with the cap on matches which go less than a certain time... it's a cap, not a penalty) I'm not sure this is a good example to use to support it. If nothing else having a look at what I think would be closest to Chikara's product in the database (Comic Book Lucha Libre) there's nothing there that suggests the match would get a penalty; the match wasn't dangerous, controversial or bloody, it went over the 10 minutes required so wouldn't even be capped, all the workers had gimmicks etc etc. So there wouldn't be any penalties to begin with.

 

 

Let's say for the sake of argument that there were penalities. As you say, in real life the crowd ate that match up (and went even crazier for the main event if I recall correctly) despite the fact the in-ring action was, shall we say, a touch lacking... in TEW's mechanical terms the overness of the wrestlers involved would have made up for the relatively poor wrestling on display. But also by TEW's mechanical terms, the penalties represent the fans being upset or put off by a match... which simply didn't happen. What you're presenting as the issue with the match (the low technical quality of it on an "objective" level) isn't what the penalties to matches in TEW represent (the fanbase turning on it). As it's currently presented in TW poor in-ring action is covered by (a lack of) skills, fans caring or not is covered by overness/popularity and the fans actively disliking what they see is covered by penalties; if that match scored a low rating it should be because of the in-ring action, not the fans actively disliking the very nature of it.

 

That does lead to a further point, albeit one that's somewhat off-topic and goes into the can of worms that is the immutable nature of the set products. Chikara's a pretty classic real-world example of the Comic Book Lucha Libre product and let's say for the sake of argument that in TEW such a product would carry some level of penalty for slow, old, miles past their best (and often not that great to begin with) workers plodding around the ring for 12 minutes. Yet in the real world you semi-frequently saw guys who established their name in the mid-1990's WWF/WCW make appearances and get big cheers in Chikara; they built their fanbase and their product to be one that went crazy when One Man Gang put on the Akeem the African Dream hat and strutted around the ring. That sort of tweaking could be achieved when we had more direct control over the product... now, far less so.

 

Honestly, thinking back on it I sort of regret typing out this post because it is a bit nitpicky and I do agree with your overall point. Think back to every wrestling event any of us has ever watched. How often has every match on the show been the absolute best it can be? How often have promotions put on matches that have a purpose other than getting the crowd as happy as they can be, whether it's training someone up, testing something out or simply for the personal enjoyment of the booker? This may apply more to companies with TV shows then those that put on monthly events but how often have we seen say WWE put on a match that was clearly more about a solid veteran training up a relative rookie who they think has potential then putting on a classic match? How often have their TV show main events been a solid match but not particularly special and often with some booking that arguably detracts from the overall rating because they're building to the PPV where they will go for the best match they could? And some of the complaints I have seen seem to be from people unfamiliar with the product they're trying to book; I seem to recall people talking about their 20 minute (or longer) USPW main event got penalised while if you look at a real world equivalent to that product (late 80's/early 90's WWF) someone like Hulk Hogan generally went 10-15 minutes (and often closer to 10).

 

Is it really the end of the world if a match or angle in the middle of a show gets a modest penalty if the rest of your show, especially the main event, more than make up for it?

[AysoATX]

Perfectly correct. People cheese the game anyway they can so they can just book their fantasy whatever and have the entire universe bow at the knee of said booker / show. That's not what this game is.

 

I've done plenty of segments that are against the "rules". Face vs Face matches that reach 99. If the performers are amazing - it really doesn't matter. You just can't fill up your show of only hardcore matches if your show isn't mean to showcase them. But having one now and then probably won't kill your product either lawl.

 

Top quality A plus post that has been deeply discussed for a few days now. Hopefully people now understand.

[AysoATX]

While I agree with most of your points here (especially with the cap on matches which go less than a certain time... it's a cap, not a penalty) I'm not sure this is a good example to use to support it. If nothing else having a look at what I think would be closest to Chikara's product in the database (Comic Book Lucha Libre) there's nothing there that suggests the match would get a penalty; the match wasn't dangerous, controversial or bloody, it went over the 10 minutes required so wouldn't even be capped, all the workers had gimmicks etc etc. So there wouldn't be any penalties to begin with.

 

 

Let's say for the sake of argument that there were penalities. As you say, in real life the crowd ate that match up (and went even crazier for the main event if I recall correctly) despite the fact the in-ring action was, shall we say, a touch lacking... in TEW's mechanical terms the overness of the wrestlers involved would have made up for the relatively poor wrestling on display. But also by TEW's mechanical terms, the penalties represent the fans being upset or put off by a match... which simply didn't happen. What you're presenting as the issue with the match (the low technical quality of it on an "objective" level) isn't what the penalties to matches in TEW represent (the fanbase turning on it). As it's currently presented in TW poor in-ring action is covered by (a lack of) skills, fans caring or not is covered by overness/popularity and the fans actively disliking what they see is covered by penalties; if that match scored a low rating it should be because of the in-ring action, not the fans actively disliking the very nature of it.

 

That does lead to a further point, albeit one that's somewhat off-topic and goes into the can of worms that is the immutable nature of the set products. Chikara's a pretty classic real-world example of the Comic Book Lucha Libre product and let's say for the sake of argument that in TEW such a product would carry some level of penalty for slow, old, miles past their best (and often not that great to begin with) workers plodding around the ring for 12 minutes. Yet in the real world you semi-frequently saw guys who established their name in the mid-1990's WWF/WCW make appearances and get big cheers in Chikara; they built their fanbase and their product to be one that went crazy when One Man Gang put on the Akeem the African Dream hat and strutted around the ring. That sort of tweaking could be achieved when we had more direct control over the product... now, far less so.

 

Honestly, thinking back on it I sort of regret typing out this post because it is a bit nitpicky and I do agree with your overall point. Think back to every wrestling event any of us has ever watched. How often has every match on the show been the absolute best it can be? How often have promotions put on matches that have a purpose other than getting the crowd as happy as they can be, whether it's training someone up, testing something out or simply for the personal enjoyment of the booker? This may apply more to companies with TV shows then those that put on monthly events but how often have we seen say WWE put on a match that was clearly more about a solid veteran training up a relative rookie who they think has potential then putting on a classic match? How often have their TV show main events been a solid match but not particularly special and often with some booking that arguably detracts from the overall rating because they're building to the PPV where they will go for the best match they could? And some of the complaints I have seen seem to be from people unfamiliar with the product they're trying to book; I seem to recall people talking about their 20 minute (or longer) USPW main event got penalised while if you look at a real world equivalent to that product (late 80's/early 90's WWF) someone like Hulk Hogan generally went 10-15 minutes (and often closer to 10).

 

Is it really the end of the world if a match or angle in the middle of a show gets a modest penalty if the rest of your show, especially the main event, more than make up for it?

 

If I may. Focusing on the bolded point. Please don't, at all, this is how people / products grow. From stopping wars, to making a text-based wrestling game possibly better in the future. Conversation like this and playing a bit of devils advocate makes things better!

[SirMichaelJordan]

I agree mostly but am still strongly of the opinion that certain penalties need not apply. The game penalised an "important match" between a Major Star and an Unknown for not going long enough the same as it would between 2 Major Stars. So either I think that "important match" system needs some tweaking or what is or isnt an important match should be put in the hands of the user if there isnt a way to code that fix.

 

An argument can be made that the crowd want to see the star in longer matches.

 

Now if the penalty was the same for two unknown than that would be a problem.

 

History shows that a match between a star and a unknown are most likely a domination. Those are short matches anyway and if done right, the bonus for that will far outweighs the penalty.

[Peria]

On one hand, the issue for me isn't the match rating. The issue is choosing a product that I like. I don't mind dealing with negatives, it's just so many weird caps on things.

 

Yeah, a match between an opener and an old man shouldn't go 15 minutes, you're right. But why shouldn't it? Because that's not how it works in real life? I don't mind playing with these restrictions because that's how I always played. I always made sure my main event and "big matches" went the distance, and my less important matches didn't. Others never played by that rule. That's what you should be advocating, it is okay to play how you want to play. The issue with that is that some peoples way of playing is now giving them negatives. It isn't fun being penalized for playing a game in a series that you've been playing for potentially 4 years (2016-2020) or way longer, and suddenly what you've been doing is just wrong. You can tell people "it's okay!" But when the game is actively telling you that it "isn't okay" it just creates a weird feeling. Plus you shouldn't have to PSA anything, if the game has faults, let it be addressed. Don't just tell people to accept it, especially if a lot of people don't accept it. That is a legitimate problem, and will stunt the development of a game we all love.

[Pipers Pit]

"What's the best rating I could possibly hope for here? 20? 22? How bad is this penalty going to possibly be if the match is already in the low 20s? (It scored a 19 if you're wondering, rookie was off his game)."

 

Of all you wrote this is what caught my eye with something thats been driving me crazy. All my matches and segments, for lack of a better term, suck. I was testing out Genadi's 1997 mod and a promo between Austin and Vince got a 55 and I about had a stroke. I really don't understand the new scale.

[Skummy]

but many of the things people are complaining of being penalised for - take, for example, the 15 minute match between an old man jobber and a young rookie - they would equally have penalised for in TEW 2016, or else if they weren't penalised for that, their product setting would have penalised them for something else; harder to get sponsorship, fans not liking risky gimmicks or risky matches, or any number of other possibilities.

 

People are acting as if the entire concept of your product coming with penalties is a new introduction, and that simply isn't the case, and the majority - if not all - examples being given would have also been penalised in the previous game, yet that went unremarked upon for years.