Building monsters

[Boltinho]

I thought this warranted a thread of it's own as it's such a huge part of the game [and the wrestling biz].

 

I'm fully in favour of how angles were fixed in this version of the game. Not being able to have huge winz for someone standing around for 10 minutes looking scary/famous clearly makes sense.

 

But the downside is that it's much harder to build monsters right?

 

Big, scary, tough looking guys [who may or may not be able to wrestle or talk] have always been a shortcut to heat and that's not going to change. So What are the best ways to simulate that mechanically now?

 

I've run into a few obstacles so far so I wondered if anyone could help build on this.

 

1. The new way menace angles are calculated [menace 25%, pop 75%] means that menace is always a 2nd best to overness. A menacing unknown is just not going to give you huge ratings.

I'm torn on this. I sort of think there's value to "Woah! I've no clue who this guy is but hes 7 feet tall, with glowing red eyes and he's towering over the champ. How's hr going to fight that?"

 

2. It seems to me so far that unknown monsters tank angles. Which is a problem. Because surely being scary in angles is the way they get the pop in the first place to not stink up angles?

"Evil McEvilface is promising to bring in a new age of fear? It would be scary - but I've never seen that 7 foot guy in a black robe standing behind him. So meh."

 

3. This is a negative chicken/egg isn't it?

Menacing unknown will be bad in angles until he's over. But he can't get over because his angles are bad.

The way to get round that is to have him win squash matches until he is over - but that's true for everyone. So how does his menace help?

I'm just struggling a bit here. It feels like the oldest, most popular trick in the booking game has suddenly become really hard to pull off.

 

I'd love to hear how others have approached it - and turned monsters with no pop into real assets.

[Bad Collin]

Managers. If that new seven foot tall guy has an established manager telling everyone that he's going to bring a new age of destruction then they're going to listen.

[Boltinho]

If you've got established managers then maybe. I'll certainly experiment a bit more.

 

But you'll still have the problem of 25% menace, 75% pop right?

 

For example in 21CW:

 

Jon Faust [mid 70s pop, 70ish entertainment, good momentum, great gimmick] cutting promos. His angles rate 70ish in a vaccum.

 

His lackeys are:

Bedlam [menace 80, SQ 51, pop 66]

Grave Digger [menace 95, SQ 85, pop 39]

Backheart [menace 90, SQ 68, pop 29]

 

If those guys are rated on menace [or anything] Faust's promos drop to 60ish.

 

So I'm better off having 3 guys with a great look being unrated than having them rated on menace.

 

Menace is useful for guys who are already over - but it doesn't help them get over.

 

Which in my mind is basically the point of menace in the first place.

 

This can't be right can it?

[Bull]

I think you're a little to concerned with getting a high grade when in reality as long as it's decently higher than their popularity they are gonna benefit from it regardless. If an unknown monster pulls a 25 in a menace angle that's still gonna increase his popularity. . sure the angle is bad in the grand scheme of things but it's still good for the worker considering they have no popularity. .

 

secondarily if you follow the standard practice of having a manager putting them over then the potential for higher grades are still there as long as the manager is rated on something active in longer angles. . Sure the overall grade of the angle might take a hit but it's still effective in the ultimate goal which is to get the less popular workers over. . the gains as far as I know aren't super equivalent to the grade you get as long as the grade is higher than the worker's popularity. . that could be wrong but in my experience it's a negligible difference in gains. .

 

Plus squash matches are still pretty effective. and if you are truly trying to get someone over it's not the worst thing in the world to tick off some more over guys by feeding them to the big monster guy. . Not to go on a tangent as it's not totally related to this but I don't see why people are adamant to keep everyone happy but feel like it takes to long to get people over when you can use the previous method lol .. Let em be mad for a while I say I got my big monster over regardless :D

[Self]

Isn't it just more gradual? Your unknown monster comes in, has no popularity, and the angle gets a D. Not great, but he'll earn popularity out of that. Just because it isn't as good an angle as your main event talents are pulling off, doesn't make it worthless, does it? Especially if you have TV, all you're trying to do is get him on TV so his pop rubber bands to the promotion's minimum.

 

Now he has a little popularity, he's getting a D+. More popularity. Let's have him squash a few guys, boost that momentum. Beat a veteran. Next time he's getting C's.

 

That feels right to me. I don't think Brock Lesnar's first appearance was a A* incredible angle. It was probably a D. But it started something. It got him going.

[Boltinho]

I mostly agree with Bull.

 

But two parts to my thinking:

 

Ratings:

I don't really care about the number. You're right - the monster will still gain pop.

Unless it drops one of my most bankable stars to angles under 65 [i.e. a hot storyline].

If my star is prevented from being in hot storylines because he has a menacing entourage then bye bye entourage.

 

Squash matches / managers:

These get anyone over. Doesn't matter if they're a 7 foot monster or a 5 foot wimp.

So you can get anyone over by feeding them victories. But the whole point of monsters [in TEW and RL] is that it's a shortcut. Being big and scary means it's just so, so much easier to get over fast. Otherwise promotoers just wouldn't bother with big guys with questionable talent.

 

And that's where I am now.

I love big scary guys. But if they offer me no benefit over another prospect then why bother?

Adam clearly thinks monsters should be a viable shortcut because the database is full of them.

But they don't seem to offer a viable upgrade.

 

In simple terms - it's no easier for me to get Blackheart over than it is Evan Alpass. Which doesn't seem right to me.

[Boltinho]

Isn't it just more gradual? Your unknown monster comes in, has no popularity, and the angle gets a D. Not great, but he'll earn popularity out of that. Just because it isn't as good an angle as your main event talents are pulling off, doesn't make it worthless, does it? Especially if you have TV, all you're trying to do is get him on TV so his pop rubber bands to the promotion's minimum.

 

Now he has a little popularity, he's getting a D+. More popularity. Let's have him squash a few guys, boost that momentum. Beat a veteran. Next time he's getting C's.

 

That feels right to me. I don't think Brock Lesnar's first appearance was a A* incredible angle. It was probably a D. But it started something. It got him going.

 

Yep. That works. Always has.

 

But it works on anyone and everyone.

 

So what is the benefit of being a monster?

[Dave E Mac]

Yep. That works. Always has.

 

But it works on anyone and everyone.

 

So what is the benefit of being a monster?

 

I don't know all the ins and outs. But it does work with everyone. Doesn't being a monster who has a high menace score give them that advantage over any average joe who comes in with equally terrible skills. So say you have a guys with 0 everything (i'm using that as an example, but know it wouldn't happen) but your monster has a menace of 80 then that is what is setting them apart.

 

I think the system is slightly better as just being huge and scary could get people to the top in 16 quite easily. Least this new system there needs to be a bit more meat on their bones so to speak in order to become a true great.

[Bull]

I don't know all the ins and outs. But it does work with everyone. Doesn't being a monster who has a high menace score give them that advantage over any average joe who comes in with equally terrible skills. So say you have a guys with 0 everything (i'm using that as an example, but know it wouldn't happen) but your monster has a menace of 80 then that is what is setting them apart.

 

I think the system is slightly better as just being huge and scary could get people to the top in 16 quite easily. Least this new system there needs to be a bit more meat on their bones so to speak in order to become a true great.

 

As far as I'm aware, and at least with how the handbook describes it, currently, menace doesn't matter unless it's in an angle specifically rated on menace.. An argument could be made that it should be something considered when booking workers to look dominant. Maybe not have an exclusive requirement for it but certainly give a bonus to menacing workers who are booked dominantly. .

[Dave E Mac]

As far as I'm aware, and at least with how the handbook describes it, currently, menace doesn't matter unless it's in an angle specifically rated on menace.. An argument could be made that it should be something considered when booking workers to look dominant. Maybe not have an exclusive requirement for it but certainly give a bonus to menacing workers who are booked dominantly. .

 

I agree with that. Could be offset by someone who is being dominated more likely to be annoyed being squashed by a dominating, menacing wrestler for example.

[praguepride]

1) "Monster" gimmicks usually come with bonuses for squash matches. You can see the effects of a gimmick when you click on it in your roster screen (same way you change the gimmick)

 

2) Menace IS a shortcut if they have low popularity. When you have 0 overness and 100 menace you can pull off solid ratings on angles.

 

3) Menace, by its nature, is a weak way to book an angle. The active skills (Fighting/Entertainment etc.) are what gets people going.

 

4) Adam has said he is nerfing menace and has done so for several versions. Menace used to be the shortcut to instant fame and success but that was viewed as a bug, not a feature.

 

5) Just look at your math and you'll see that no, menace is not worse than overness. If your menace stat is higher than your popularity then it will drag it upwards. Just the more popular you are the more diminishing returns you get from high menace.

[Teh_Showtime]

As far as I'm aware, and at least with how the handbook describes it, currently, menace doesn't matter unless it's in an angle specifically rated on menace.. An argument could be made that it should be something considered when booking workers to look dominant. Maybe not have an exclusive requirement for it but certainly give a bonus to menacing workers who are booked dominantly. .

 

This is what dominant gimmicks do. I guess it’s technically random if you get the perk, but there’s a high chance it generates on dominant gimmicks.

[praguepride]

An argument could be made that it should be something considered when booking workers to look dominant.

 

 

 

That is in the game...

 

[Bull]

This is what dominant gimmicks do. I guess it’s technically random if you get the perk, but there’s a high chance it generates on dominant gimmicks.

 

That bonus can apply for Bad Ass and Legitimate and maybe realistic gimmicks as well, although I'm not certain on that last one. But I would guess it's easier to get on dominant gimmicks.. Either way at least from the information at hand menace has no bearing on whether or not you get that specific bonus with gimmicks. . I guess I'm just thinking that there could be better utilization of the stat beyond angles and AI Hiring. .

[Teh_Showtime]

It should probably be able to give slight boosts in the same way SQ does. After all these gigantic men even if they aren’t trying to be menacing, are still menacing. Big Show did tons of comedy but some of it hit even harder because it’s a 500 pound giant making a fool of himself (entertainment). Brock Lesnar killing Zach Gowan (fighting) looked much worse because of their size difference.

[Boltinho]

1) "Monster" gimmicks usually come with bonuses for squash matches. You can see the effects of a gimmick when you click on it in your roster screen (same way you change the gimmick)

 

2) Menace IS a shortcut if they have low popularity. When you have 0 overness and 100 menace you can pull off solid ratings on angles.

 

3) Menace, by its nature, is a weak way to book an angle. The active skills (Fighting/Entertainment etc.) are what gets people going.

 

4) Adam has said he is nerfing menace and has done so for several versions. Menace used to be the shortcut to instant fame and success but that was viewed as a bug, not a feature.

 

5) Just look at your math and you'll see that no, menace is not worse than overness. If your menace stat is higher than your popularity then it will drag it upwards. Just the more popular you are the more diminishing returns you get from high menace.

 

1) "Monster" gimmicks usually come with bonuses for squash matches

Yep. Still useful for companies with one monster who can squash someone every week and get over. Nice.

 

2) Menace IS a shortcut if they have low popularity.

Well yeah. But so are other skills [mic skills, sex appeal, high flying, etc]

Obviously having good menace is better than not having a trump card.

It's just that any other trump card is better.

 

3) Menace, by its nature, is a weak way to book an angle.

I know this is how it works now. I just think it's been nerfed too hard.

Having a lone guy ONLY rated on menace in a solo angle is boring. I get that.

Having a really menacing unknown dragging down an angle where a star is doing all the talking... I don't think that's right.

 

5) Just look at your math and you'll see that no, menace is not worse than overness.

Obviously pop is better than menace. Pop is better than anything. That's the game right?

 

The point is - menace has been nerfed SO hard. It is what it is. No point complaining about it.

 

My question is - are there viable ways to use it now?

 

You used to be able to get low-ranking guys with menace in big storylines.

I don't know if that's still viable. I don't think so but I'd love to be proven wrong!

 

As I understand it mic skills are waaay better than menace. Entertainment splits 40/60. Menace just 25/75. And guys with good mic skills tend to be better workers. So the likes of Phil harmonic, Beau Bolder and Dangermouth are better prospects than Blackheart or Grave Digger.

 

That feels like it should be true in some companies but not others.

 

Old Skool USPW or 21CW were built on big, scary guys being able to get over regardless of other skills. Giant Redwood and T-Rex were national stars. Darryl Devine couldn't get over.

 

I'm not sure the current game mechanics match up with c-verse lore.

[Makhai]

If you've got established managers then maybe. I'll certainly experiment a bit more.

 

But you'll still have the problem of 25% menace, 75% pop right?

 

Let's use a guy I'm using. Thorsten Sidgardsen. This dude is green as grass. And is stone-cold not over. His Menace is 92. I put him in an angle graded on menace. 25% of 92 is 22, and 75% of 8 is 6. So his angle should optimally pull 28. That is pretty darn good for a dude with 8 overness. To put that in perspective, that's what my ladies do in angles in EWA, and they're comfortably in the midcard. This will keep scaling over time granted you can mitigate the penalties. No more 4mo Garga moonshots. But they will still get over in time.

[Blackman]

Maybe not have an exclusive requirement for it but certainly give a bonus to menacing workers who are booked dominantly. .

 

I agree. Right now it falls to "charisma" for the bonus here, or does that govern only the lenght of the match?

 

It's true that "menace" does very little atm and it's been said before that 40/60 men/pop would be more realistic for menace angles. I know it's not the same, but horror movies don't get bad reviews because the actor playing the monster isn't well known. I get the 25/75 split on sex appeal. But for menace it makes less sense to me.

 

Sure, you can exploit that, but a true monster is just a golden ticket in certain wrestling products.

[praguepride]

<p>Menace does two things</p><p> </p><p>

1) Guaranteed number. Unlike entertainment skills, it along with SQ allows you to just look at a guy and say "yep I can work with that</p><p> </p><p>

2) Guaranteed good ratings. Assuming their overness is within the ballpark of your size they're guaranteed good ratings and, as mentioned above, that will scale up as they get more recognized. A guy with 92 menace can pull guaranteed good angles from day 1 to day 999 in your fed. </p><p> </p><p>

How is that being nerfed too hard? <strong>GUARANTEED GOOD RATINGS</strong></p><p> </p><p>

Unlike entertainment skills you don't have "off" days. Unlike SQ it doesn't decline that fast with age. </p><p> </p><p>

All that has been done is that it is no longer an instant "I win" button. You can't take a no-name and make him the world's most popular dude in just a couple of months with menace spam. It's a tool in the toolbox like it always should have been.</p>

[Capelli King]

<p>Yeah, Menace is WAY more underwhelming in this version of the game. Charisma, Acting and Star are all you really need. I do not pay attention to Menace when hiring new guys any more, before it was one of the key things i always paid attention to. </p><p> </p><p>

I think if the ratio was 60/40 it would be more realistic. Currently it is being compared to Sex Appeal, i do not think that is correct. Rarely does someone get super over simply because they look great (or at least the comparison to Menace should be lower)</p>

[D-Lyrium]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Boltinho" data-cite="Boltinho" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="50256" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><div style="margin-left:25px;">1. The new way menace angles are calculated [menace 25%, pop 75%] means that menace is always a 2nd best to overness. A menacing unknown is just not going to give you huge ratings.</div></div></blockquote><p></p><div style="margin-left:25px;"> </div><p></p><div style="margin-left:25px;"> This may have been addressed already, I skipped most of the thread, but this is not really correct.</div><p></p><div style="margin-left:25px;"> </div><p></p><div style="margin-left:25px;"> Menace angles are 25% better than overness angles for guys with good menace who aren't over. Disregarding the effect of momentum on overness (which would be the same for Menace anyway), Menace angles are better as long as menace < popularity.</div><p></p><div style="margin-left:25px;"> </div><p></p><div style="margin-left:25px;"> The only time a worker does better on Overness than they do on Menace is when their popularity is already better than their menace, in which case they're either over already, or really not very menacing. You're not going to go from WWE Midcarder to global superstar based solely on your menace (nor should you be able to), but you can definitely go from unknown to Midcarder easily enough.</div>

[praguepride]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Capelli King" data-cite="Capelli King" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="50256" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Yeah, Menace is WAY more underwhelming in this version of the game.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Perhaps because it was waaaay broken in earlier versions?</p>

[Boltinho]

<p>Yeah - I was referring to them in relation to other workers.</p><p> </p><p>

For a random undercarder with good menace then using it will be a good thing for him to do.</p><p> </p><p>

But the old trope of "young menacing guys get over as support for established star" is really hard to pull off. Because the fact they're not over drags down angle ratings. </p><p> </p><p>

Let's use Faust and Grave Digger as an example again so I'm clearer.</p><p> </p><p>

The old approach [and one I think is strongly rooted in reality] is that Digger hangs around and gets over by being associated by Faust. Digger doesn't do much and if he's asked to talk or wrestle he's a bit of a problem. </p><p> </p><p>

I don't expect Digger to add anything to a Faust angle at all. He's way less over so even if his menace and SQ are great then he shouldn't be expected to add a bonus.</p><p>

Cool.</p><p> </p><p>

But at the moment Digger pulls down Faust Angles by about 15%. Enough that in a big company [which needs storylines to stay above 65] it's a problem. Because unless Faust [or anyone else of course] is a guy that churns out 75+ angles the Grave Digger drag is likely to keep them under the threshold for hot storylines.</p><p> </p><p>

I do not want or expect Menace to b a cheat code. it was overpowered.</p><p> </p><p>

But "menacing undercarder gets over by shadowing stud" is tough to pull off right now and I think that's a problem. </p><p> </p><p>

You can still do it - but at the moment you need to accept the drain they have on angles - or put them in as unrated. I don't really like either of those options. I'd much rather they got over slowly and steadily without dragging segments down.</p><p> </p><p>

But failing that how have people booked around it? That was the original question.</p><p> </p><p>

The options I see are:</p><p> </p><p>

</p><ul><li><br />

Get monsters over by squash matches and a long, slow burn<br />

Put them in programs with stars - and accept the drag on grades<br />

Avoid monsters and use other, more bankable assets<br /></li></ul><p></p><p> </p><p>

Given that 21CW in particular is very well-stocked with young, menacing undercarders this seems a good question.</p><p> </p><p>

Mostly what people have said to me today is "Use option 1 and give them squashes" which is fine for one or two of them. But 21CW have many. Grave Digger, Blackheart, Gorilla Lee, Assassin, Ruin, Mass Hulk, Kelvin Badberry, Doomsday, War Machine, Roly Muckletruck, Brickhouse Balder... </p><p> </p><p>

So either one of the biggest companies in the world has a serious roster problem. Or there's another route I'm overlooking.</p>

[djthefunkchris]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Capelli King" data-cite="Capelli King" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="50256" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Yeah, Menace is WAY more underwhelming in this version of the game. Charisma, Acting and Star are all you really need. I do not pay attention to Menace when hiring new guys any more, before it was one of the key things i always paid attention to. <p> </p><p> I think if the ratio was 60/40 it would be more realistic. Currently it is being compared to Sex Appeal, i do not think that is correct. Rarely does someone get super over simply because they look great (or at least the comparison to Menace should be lower)</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Only thing that matters with anything small, is popularity, it trumps everything.</p><p> </p><p> Adam said he was going to look into it, we had a huge discussion over Sex Appeal (which we talked about all of them, especially menace) angles being totally unbelievable to the point it can take you out of the game. We discussed it in the suggestions area. </p><p> </p><p> I think the reason for the change was to kind of nerf being able to just get people over in angles without having to wrestle, but it takes away immersion completely. An unknown Andre would be less menacing than Sasha Banks, the way it is now. </p><p> </p><p> I made a suggestion I think makes it more realistic. A 50/50 split, nerfed by 20% (meaning 80 is as high as you get), and weighted by popularity... so a 0 pop with a 100 menace would still get a 40 average rating, but a 0 menace and 100 pop would get 0, not a 47 (the way it is now).</p><p> </p><p> Basically the math would be 80% of 50/50, times popularity as a percentage (an 80 pop would be times 80%). To me, although it's still nerfed, it keeps me in the game, because the person with the higher (menace, SQ, SA), will get a better grade than the one without, no matter the popularity.. The biggest difference from the game now is that lower scores on the skill the angle is rated on, will get lower grades than what is in game now, but higher grades will get slightly higher than what is in game right now. </p><p> </p><p> Mind you, we still won't be able to simulate that Austin 3:16 moment, but it would be able to simulate it in a smaller way, because their is another variable Adam has in there, that might swing up or down a few more percent, to account for unknown variables (Forgot a word, and fluttered.. or made something up that was better).</p>

[djthefunkchris]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Boltinho" data-cite="Boltinho" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="50256" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Yeah - I was referring to them in relation to other workers.<p> </p><p> For a random undercarder with good menace then using it will be a good thing for him to do.</p><p> </p><p> But the old trope of "young menacing guys get over as support for established star" is really hard to pull off. Because the fact they're not over drags down angle ratings. </p><p> </p><p> Let's use Faust and Grave Digger as an example again so I'm clearer.</p><p> </p><p> The old approach [and one I think is strongly rooted in reality] is that Digger hangs around and gets over by being associated by Faust. Digger doesn't do much and if he's asked to talk or wrestle he's a bit of a problem. </p><p> </p><p> I don't expect Digger to add anything to a Faust angle at all. He's way less over so even if his menace and SQ are great then he shouldn't be expected to add a bonus.</p><p> Cool.</p><p> </p><p> But at the moment Digger pulls down Faust Angles by about 15%. Enough that in a big company [which needs storylines to stay above 65] it's a problem. Because unless Faust [or anyone else of course] is a guy that churns out 75+ angles the Grave Digger drag is likely to keep them under the threshold for hot storylines.</p><p> </p><p> I do not want or expect Menace to b a cheat code. it was overpowered.</p><p> </p><p> But "menacing undercarder gets over by shadowing stud" is tough to pull off right now and I think that's a problem. </p><p> </p><p> You can still do it - but at the moment you need to accept the drain they have on angles - or put them in as unrated. I don't really like either of those options. I'd much rather they got over slowly and steadily without dragging segments down.</p><p> </p><p> But failing that how have people booked around it? That was the original question.</p><p> </p><p> The options I see are:</p><p> </p><p> </p><ul><li><br /> Get monsters over by squash matches and a long, slow burn<br /> Put them in programs with stars - and accept the drag on grades<br /> Avoid monsters and use other, more bankable assets<br /></li></ul><p></p><p> </p><p> Given that 21CW in particular is very well-stocked with young, menacing undercarders this seems a good question.</p><p> </p><p> Mostly what people have said to me today is "Use option 1 and give them squashes" which is fine for one or two of them. But 21CW have many. Grave Digger, Blackheart, Gorilla Lee, Assassin, Ruin, Mass Hulk, Kelvin Badberry, Doomsday, War Machine, Roly Muckletruck, Brickhouse Balder... </p><p> </p><p> So either one of the biggest companies in the world has a serious roster problem. Or there's another route I'm overlooking.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Have them as managers/valets, until popularity rises.</p>