The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[ampulator]

If your referring to Ricky at 'Mania coming back for the legends match, he didnt have ring rust because he had been working house shows for like a month beforehand.

 

Who said the good stuff was televised lol

Although I still think he performed better than he was expected to, you have a great point.

[Tha Black Phenom]

That's an actual match-up and angle i thought of, Triple H turning on Shawn with reason that he's been lame enough to shake hands with the devil. And how he didn't let it bother him at the beginning, but as weeks went by, he got more and more disgruntled at the decision. Bret somehow makes another appearance and that's around where Trips speaks off his mind(or lets off his 'words' in the ring)

[cappyboy]

I may be in the minority here, but Roddy Piper's legacy is not tainted for me because of the terrible matches he's had over the past decade or so. No matter what happens between Bret and Vince, I won't remember Bret as an old man who beat up Vince, I'll remember him as a guy who tore down the house nightly with his great technical masterpieces.

 

Agreed. And it's not just because I try not to let technical match quality get in my way while I'm watching it. The way I look at it is this. Do I remember Tony Dorsett finishing up in Denver? Sure. But I give much more thought to all the awesome games he played in Dallas. Willie McGinest ending up in Cleveland stop me from marveling at his glory days in New England? Not in the least. I think most of this "hurt his legacy" talk really comes in how the player/wrestler will be perceived by those who came late to the party. I doubt Jbergey can really make the case anything Michael Jordan did in his prime was any less impressive because of what he did in Washington.

 

It's just that those who got to the league late due to extreme youth or lack or prior lack of inclination aren't likely to get what all the buzz was about. And you know what? With places like ESPN Classic and Youtube out there now, there are outlets there for those who really care to try and get it after the fact a lot of us wouldn't have had when I was too young to get an athlete's greatness.

[Hyde Hill]

In case anyone missed it Danielson has been sent to developmental according to PWI and FCW even ran a promo hyping his debut. Wierd seeing as Danielso said that when he signed he wouldn't have to go there and Chavo and the crowd liking his dark match. Not mentioning that maybe apart from his promo skills a bit he doesn't need any developing.

[The Shape]

Probably has to pay his dues because there is no wrestling outside of WWE that counts xD

[Self]

You've got to learn the WWE style. Danielson is used to his 20 minute epics with 7000 moves and kicking out of 300 finishers. That's awesome, but a month or two getting used to working simple 4 minute matches will do him the world of good in getting ready for WWE TV. You could throw him on PPV tomorrow and he would tear the house down, but when you're used to have 20 minutes every match to get all your spots in, 4 minute TV slots are gonna feel awkward.

 

Plus, if there isn't a spot for the guy just yet, might as well put him to work helping some of the developmental rookies.

[Bigpapa42]

In case anyone missed it Danielson has been sent to developmental according to PWI and FCW even ran a promo hyping his debut. Wierd seeing as Danielso said that when he signed he wouldn't have to go there and Chavo and the crowd liking his dark match. Not mentioning that maybe apart from his promo skills a bit he doesn't need any developing.

 

Interesting. It could be the WWE wanting him to get more experience in working a "WWE style" match. Or they might have time-specific plans for him... like debuting him after WM, and they need to do something with him in the meantime. Doing the occasional dark match would be one option, but polishing up some little stuff at FCW and helping out with some of the talent there works too.

[Bigpapa42]

The latest PWI update on the move says that the WWE felt Danielson had a bit of ring rust and sent him to FCW for that...

 

Edit - clarification is that it was Danielson who thought he was rusty and he actually requested a spell in FCW...

[MrCanada]

I'm guessing its a typical case of the fact WWE probably said "Bryan, you likely wont debut for a couple months, we will try and fit you in dark matches and maybe on house shows until you debut on ECW, likely after a handful of releases." So Bryan likely said "I'd rather go to Florida and work and train on a consistent basis."

 

If all the stuff I've read (or even half of it) is true, the WWE is high on Danielson. He has the support of HBK, Regal, and a lot of other guys backstage (I read even Taker likes him) so he's likely going to be a career guy who even if he never becomes world champ will be a Regal like "make everyone look good" guy.

[MrCanada]

WWE has signed Joshua Fatu to a developmental deal. Joshua is the son of Rikishi (so he's related to all the samoans). His brother Jonathan is already in FCW as Jimmy Uso, and Josh joined him at the most recent show in a tag team as Joey Uso.

 

It also seems WWE may of quietly let go a couple of developmental talents. Over the past couple months a couple names have disappeared from all shows and even the FCW roster page. I remember Christoph Herzog (Chris The Bambikiller) & Jose Ediel (Joe Gomez) were the first to do the disappearing act a couple months back. And in the last couple days Dylan Klein (Johnny Riggs) and Lift Sawyer (Aaron Reeds) were removed.

 

I checked Riggs & Bambikiller's myspaces, Riggs doesnt seem to mention a release and Chris claims to still be with the company but back in Germany. So Riggs could be gone and just not updated it (how many people really update their myspace "JUST GOT FIRED!") and Bambikiller either has family/health/visa issues or has been let go and just playing the "no I havnt" game.

 

Other developmental news:

 

- Richie Steamboat has apparentley arrived in Florida and already been in the FCW gym.

 

- Ray Leppan (Dameon Duke) a friend of Justin Angel finally got his work visa and should be in Florida soon. Ray is the 2nd ever South African wrestler signed to the WWE (after Justin Angel). He actually has a cool look and seems pretty impressive.

 

- Barri Griffiths & Jemma Palmer are waiting on visa's apparentley. Jemma has been "signed" for 6 or more months now so maybe her deal fell apart. I remember when Ontario mainstray Shawn Spears got signed, he "signed" in like January but didnt end up going to OVW for 5-6 months (maybe longer) and I remember everything he did on the indy scene had to be approved by WWE (but to their credit they allowed him to continue to work, and that let me watch him live for another half year).

 

- Incognito is either waiting on a visa or fleshing out moving details as he isnt in Florida.

 

- Reon Mahima of New Zealend is apparently been signed to a deal (a while ago actually) but hasnt come to the states yet due to law issues and likely visa issues. He allegedly beat up three guys who threw food at him and his girlfriend: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/462966. Some may remember Reon as originally being involved in the "who are Donny Marlow & Jimmy Uso" incident of 2009, where people had no clue who they were, Rikishi's sons, Haku's sons, other random people, ext.

[Moe Hunter]

I have no idea who Reon Mahima is, or how he got into FCW... I don't think I've seen him in any of the NZ promotions before.

[MrCanada]

I have no idea who Reon Mahima is, or how he got into FCW... I don't think I've seen him in any of the NZ promotions before.

 

if you do a search for him the only thing that comes up of any use is mentions of his amateur wrestling career. Likely hasnt done much (if any) pro wrestling.

[Hyde Hill]

DJ Gabriel has been released. No loss there but sucks for him.

[Bigpapa42]

DJ Gabriel has been released. No loss there but sucks for him.

 

Really? Weird... They had him as one of the top guys in FCW for awhile now and he seemed to do pretty well with it. He's a guy I figured could make the jump at some point....

[Hyde Hill]

Could be a sign the New Year WWE cleaning is starting. We shall see.

 

He was maybe one of the top guys at FCW as he had been on ECW for a period before being sent back so had some overness.

[Bigpapa42]

Could be a sign the New Year WWE cleaning is starting. We shall see.

 

He was maybe one of the top guys at FCW as he had been on ECW for a period before being sent back so had some overness.

 

Having spent some time on a brand was a big part of it, I imagine. He's also a decent worker from what I've seen and has decent charisma. He's very experienced compared to a lot of guys in FCW, since he's been with the WWE since 2005.

 

Rumors that Gabriel might not be the only developmental wrestler released, either. I am not a huge fan of the WWE developmental approach of finding raw recruits and trying to build them virtually from scratch.

[MrCanada]

Rumors that Gabriel might not be the only developmental wrestler released, either. I am not a huge fan of the WWE developmental approach of finding raw recruits and trying to build them virtually from scratch.

 

I was probably on the money when I said Dylan Klein (who is basically Zack Ryder with a bit of Dolph Ziggler) and Lift Sawyer (who has the best name in wrestling... unless someone debuts with the name Harvest Grayson or Run Gofast) are likely gone.

[Bigpapa42]

I was probably on the money when I said Dylan Klein (who is basically Zack Ryder with a bit of Dolph Ziggler) and Lift Sawyer (who has the best name in wrestling... unless someone debuts with the name Harvest Grayson or Run Gofast) are likely gone.

 

Read somewhere that Klein had asked for his release from the WWE, so he's a pretty easy bet.

[HughBatey4]

I have never liked the WWE developmental system. It looks good on paper, but has been horribly executed. The idea that indy wrestlers would be signed and then work in a promotion with WWE trainers until deemed ready sounds awesome. Only WWE could manage to mess that up.

[MrCanada]

I have never liked the WWE developmental system. It looks good on paper, but has been horribly executed. The idea that indy wrestlers would be signed and then work in a promotion with WWE trainers until deemed ready sounds awesome. Only WWE could manage to mess that up.

 

- John Cean

- Batista

- Randy Orton

- Cody Rhodes

- Jack Swagger

- Kofi Kingston

- Mark Henry

- Santino Marella

- Ted Dibiase

- The Miz

- Dolph Ziggler

- John Morrison

- JTG

- Maryse

- Michelle McCool

- Shad

- Ezekiel Jakson

- Vladimir Kozlov

- Zack Ryder

 

I'd agree. Complete waste.[/sarcasm]

 

None of th above guys had really indy careers of any sort. A few had maybe a year or two experiance with what were at the time kind of un-official WWE developmental territories (Kofi in Chaotic, Miz/Cena in UPW), but outside of that all those guys are OVW/FCW groomed.)

 

And "indy guys" typically dont spend a lot of time there. If they do its because WWE has nothing for them to do, more so then trying to train them. Most indy guys end up coming up before from scratch guys, see Punk/Bourne/Tatsu/Archer/Kidd/Smith/Natalya, most of which spent at most about a year in developmental and usually you can see the reasons. Punk was held off to debut in ECW, Tatsu was held off to learn english, Bourne was up really fast, waiting for the at-the-time ECW roster to thin down. I admit sometimes it gets annoying when someone like Low Ki is down there for a year, but he was hurt for what, 8 months of the 12 (if that) he's been signed? And I think its almost a lock that people like Ki & Danielson are likely going to be the first called up after WWE's next batch of roster releases.

[alden]

To be honest alot of indy workers can't make it in the wwe. How many indy wrestlers in reality could be a wwe wrestler. Wwe is not about wrestling skill.....You have to have atleast something

 

1) the ability to push product. If you can sell something your in

 

2) can talk. If you are good on the mic you are in also.

 

3) a unique look. If you have something that will make people look at you and go yah.....i want to watch that guy. Then you are in

 

If you don't have one of thoes three then you go to development. Even if you do you still go but it is easyer. The devlopment system in the wwe is not teaching people how to wrestler. It is teaching them how to put on a show. the kind of show the wwe puts on.

[HughBatey4]

- John Cean

- Batista

- Randy Orton

- Cody Rhodes

- Jack Swagger

- Kofi Kingston

- Mark Henry

- Santino Marella

- Ted Dibiase

- The Miz

- Dolph Ziggler

- John Morrison

- JTG

- Maryse

- Michelle McCool

- Shad

- Ezekiel Jakson

- Vladimir Kozlov

- Zack Ryder

 

I'd agree. Complete waste.[/sarcasm]

 

None of th above guys had really indy careers of any sort. A few had maybe a year or two experiance with what were at the time kind of un-official WWE developmental territories (Kofi in Chaotic, Miz/Cena in UPW), but outside of that all those guys are OVW/FCW groomed.)

 

OK, we'll do this.

 

How many of those are prepared to carry a match with a lesser talent?

 

How many of those are even decent workers? The Miz has developed since being on TV, but when he was called up, he was NOT ready to be a national superstar. Mark Henry was never part of the current WWE developmental system, he debuted in 1997! Kozlov, Jackson, Maryse, and McCool are horrible workers.

 

Since you gave me a list of "successes", how about the failures? By your mentality, at least.

 

- Idol Stevens

- KC James

- Curt Hawkins

- Mikey

- Johnny

- Kenny Dykstra

- Mitch

- Beth Phoenix (take one)

- Paul Burchill and his sister

- Elijah Burke

- DJ Gabriel

- Ricky Ortiz

- Primo

- Eric Angle

- Nidia

- Drew McIntyre (take one)

- Mordecai (Fertig take one)

- Kevin Thorn (Fertig take two)

- Slam Master J

- Festus

 

Need I go on? The list of failures is at least twice as long as the list of successes.

 

P.S. - BTW, I'm not wanting this to become a flame war. If we disagree, then we disagree.

[MrCanada]

OK, we'll do this.

 

How many of those are prepared to carry a match with a lesser talent?

 

How many of those are even decent workers?

 

I think they are all decent. Maybe Jackson/Kozlov are a little on a crap side. But Orton/Cena/Batista are three of the biggest stars in wrestling today. That means they have skill. I admit I do what most people on the internet do as well, I prefer a bit more of the indy style myself, but you have to bite the bullet sometimes and think "there's a reason Cena sells how many millions of dollars in merch and Bryan Danielson doesnt.

 

The Miz has developed since being on TV, but when he was called up, he was NOT ready to be a national superstar. Mark Henry was never part of the current WWE developmental system, he debuted in 1997! Kozlov, Jackson, Maryse, and McCool are horrible workers.

 

The Miz was still in development after being brought onto TV... And not every rookie hits a home run out of the dugout. They need some seasons to really start hitting .300 dont they? Who trained Mark Henry if not the WWE? He signed with the WWE before ever getting ANY training as a pro-wrestler and WWE assigned and paid for his training. He also has spent A LOT of time in OVW. Maybe not the standard development guy, but he's from scratch. I admit the last 4 arnt the best things since sliced bread, Kozlov/Jackson are typical boneheads, but I think its time we except women's wrestling just sucks. Even TNA's sucks. The best women's match (in North America) is usually about as good as a mediocre to terrible men's match. (I know there are exceptions, but thats like saying every human being is a genius because Einstein was).

 

Since you gave me a list of "successes", how about the failures? By your mentality, at least.

 

Need I go on? The list of failures is at least twice as long as the list of successes.

 

I wish I lived in your world... Where every player ever drafted to a sports team and put through the development/farm system turned out to be the best player ever. Of COURSE there has been failures. Some of the people on your list arnt really pure products of development (Beth Phoenix, Paul Burchill, Katie Lea, DJ Gabriel, Primo, & Drew McIntyre all had some sort of decent indy career). And putting Drew McIntyre & Beth Phoenix on your list counters your own argument. His first time on the roster, he clearly was too green and not ready, he would of failed badly... correct. So he went for more time in the farm league and now is pretty decent... Almost as if he developed.

 

But I really just dislike that argument. Not sure how to really counter it as it is basically saying since every person to spend time down in development isnt still with the WWE or all that great, the whole system is a failure? You cant set the standard as perfection. And even a handful of the guys on that list are pretty decent wrestlers.

 

EDIT:

 

not a flame war at all! This is an example of a debate. Notice (on both our sides) we havnt called each other a homo yet? Although that "lived in your world" comment may push it. I'm just to lazy to phrase things all nice and proper. haha.

[sabataged]

OK, we'll do this.

 

How many of those are prepared to carry a match with a lesser talent?

 

How many of those are even decent workers? The Miz has developed since being on TV, but when he was called up, he was NOT ready to be a national superstar. Mark Henry was never part of the current WWE developmental system, he debuted in 1997! Kozlov, Jackson, Maryse, and McCool are horrible workers.

 

Since you gave me a list of "successes", how about the failures? By your mentality, at least.

 

- Idol Stevens

- KC James

- Curt Hawkins

- Mikey

- Johnny

- Kenny Dykstra

- Mitch

- Beth Phoenix (take one)

- Paul Burchill and his sister

- Elijah Burke

- DJ Gabriel

- Ricky Ortiz

- Primo

- Eric Angle

- Nidia

- Drew McIntyre (take one)

- Mordecai (Fertig take one)

- Kevin Thorn (Fertig take two)

- Slam Master J

- Festus

 

Need I go on? The list of failures is at least twice as long as the list of successes.

 

P.S. - BTW, I'm not wanting this to become a flame war. If we disagree, then we disagree.

 

Why are they failures? i bet in the few months they were on the main roster they were making more money than the indy workers were in a whole year or more. I wouldn't call be on RAW, Smackdown or ECW in front of millions of people complete failures. Most of those guys are being booked on Indy shows today for the simple fact they have name value.

[MrCanada]

Why are they failures? i bet in the few months they were on the main roster they were making more money than the indy workers were in a whole year or more. I wouldn't call be on RAW, Smackdown or ECW in front of millions of people complete failures. Most of those guys are being booked on Indy shows today for the simple fact they have name value.

 

I'm assuming he was discussing WWE-success. I think ANYONE in wrestling who spends more then a blink (like a squash match) on WWE TV is a success to an extent. People way to often (and as I've said, me too) think the only way someone isnt a bad wrestler is if they are Bryan Danielson (or a worker who typically has interent-friendly matches) but you have to admit, whether you like it or not. There's a reason Benoit/Jericho/Guerrero/Angle never reached the heights of Hogan/Rock/Austin/Andre the Giant (aka becoming popular culture). I dont think anyone would say the last 4 are as good wrestling as the first 4, but the last 4 make more money and are more known in wrestling... so doenst that in some stupid way make them the best wrestlers?

 

(NOTE: I would rather watch Benoit vs. Jericho any day of the week. But I'm simply stating a fact. Just as I prefer the White Stripes, I must admit U2 is doing something better then them because they sell more records, which permits the argument they are the better band)