The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[ampulator]

Are you kidding me? Go back and watch some of his WCW and early WWF matches. He has the total package. The thing is, during the Attitude Era the style of pro wrestling changed in the mainstream. Triple H adopted a much more brawl-oriented style, and it got him more over than any fluid wristlocks and flashy transitions. H's can do it all in the ring, aside from the aerial artistry. Injuries and time have obviously taken their toll as well, which is why he isn't as quick these days.

I have. And, I still stick by it. He's decent at those, but he's never been good or great at technical wrestling.

[crownsy]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Comradebot" data-cite="Comradebot" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Probably.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Nope, I am as well.</p><p> </p><p> IT's just that Orton has become the IWC's new hate target to offset the Y2J worship.</p><p> </p><p> Somehow Cena's moved from hate target to "he sucks, but whatever" around the net while Orton has become the new "omfg what an awful worker" target.</p><p> </p><p> I suspect it's because Randy's a face now.</p>

[Jaysin]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="RingofHonorGuard" data-cite="RingofHonorGuard" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>1) WWE dropped the ball on a second serious wave of Bill Goldberg sweeping the nation. In the elimination chamber match that Triple H won by beating Goldberg with the sledgehammer.... Big mistake in booking there. Was it because they didn't expect him to be -that- over, or the "non-home grown, no real push" effect? Regardless... Who knows what would have happened if Goldberg got the strap during that match... I will say this though, watch the match and tell me that spinebuster he hits on Randy Orton isn't the most impactful move you've ever seen. Not a Goldberg fan, but he had me hooked during that Chamber match, for sure.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> My friend and I watched that match a few months back and I knew the outcome of the match and STILL got mad at the finish. I think it may have been the Wrestlecrap guys, but someone said that finish was basically the last nail in WCW's coffin. </p><p> </p><p> I mean, I love Goldust, but the night Goldberg debuts they have him doing a comedy sketch with Goldust? It was hilarious, but that took away from his bad ass, no nonsense human wrecking ball persona. I dunno, I think as far as dropped balls are concerned, WWE had dropped the ball big time with Goldberg and DDP. Might just be me though.</p>

[lazorbeak]

<p>I'm just going to ignore the off-topic "this is what I think TEW stats should be" argument.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Self" data-cite="Self" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I like Randy Orton. I don't see much of him because RAW is a scheduling nightmare for me, but during the MitB match he was the guy my eye was drawn to the most. I love his mannerisms. He just sorta walked everywhere. He stood out from everyone else. I dug it. I try not to get involved with 'who is a good wrestler' or 'who has good psychology' debates, because so much of it is subjective and down to taste. I like watching Randy Orton wrestle, more so now that he's a babyface because his chinlocks (while valid heat spots) were a tad repetitive.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> See this is good analysis because you're not coming into it with the preconceived notions that somebody that watches every week and you're coming away with why Orton is suddenly a top babyface without much effort. He has a great look, his mannerisms and facial expressions are some of the best in the sport, and the crowd digs it. I've seen smark fans, even smark fans whose opinions I generally respect struggle to understand why everybody suddenly likes Orton, but those fans are letting their biases towards the work he did 2, 3, or 7 years ago influence them. </p><p> </p><p> One of the most valuable assets as a wrestling viewer is to be able to come into a given show fresh, without a lot of "oh, so and so SUCKS" opinions, and just measure whether you're entertained.</p>

[Jaysin]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>One of the most valuable assets as a wrestling viewer is to be able to come into a given show fresh, without a lot of "oh, so and so SUCKS" opinions, and just measure whether you're entertained.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> That's why I stopped watching WWE really. It stopped being entertaining to me a long time ago. The guys in the top spots did nothing for me. Even one of my favorites, Chris Jericho got increasingly stale. I used to be a huge Orton fan back when he first split up with Evolution and I liked him up until his feud with Cena. After awhile, he just started to bore me. He no longer entertained me. His promos were all in the same monotoned robotic voice that showed no personality. Then when he started with that "disease" nonsense? Ugh give me a break. That was just dumb. </p><p> </p><p> His new psycho character isn't ground breaking by any means, but at least he's showing more personality now. Money in the Bank was the first time I've really watched in a long time. I still didn't want him to win, but I wasn't nearly as bored watching him as I used to be. I even watched Raw the next night. I don't want to hate him or the WWE for that matter, I just want to be entertained and for a long time, they just stopped entertaining me. I'm going to give Smackdown a chance tonight and hopefully it won't be too bad. I'm giving it an honest effort to get back into the company. </p><p> </p><p> Though, I did forget how completely awful WWE's divas are in the ring.</p>

[Comradebot]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="crownsy" data-cite="crownsy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Nope, I am as well.<p> </p><p> IT's just that Orton has become the IWC's new hate target to offset the Y2J worship.</p><p> </p><p> Somehow Cena's moved from hate target to "he sucks, but whatever" around the net while Orton has become the new "omfg what an awful worker" target.</p><p> </p><p> I suspect it's because Randy's a face now.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> In all fairness, I've <em>always</em> thought Randy sucked.</p><p> </p><p> His promos bore me to tears, and in the ring he's passable, but rarely exciting.</p>

[Self]

I liked watching him do spots with John Morrison in MitB. They've been in the same promotion for years, but it looked completely foreign to see them in the same place, same time, <em>doing moves</em> together. I had the same feeling with JoMo & Triple H a couple of Rumbles ago. Seeing Orton or Trips sell the Flying Chuck is oddness.

[Hive]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Self" data-cite="Self" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I dug it. I try not to get involved with 'who is a good wrestler' or 'who has good psychology' debates, because so much of it is subjective and down to taste.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This is true. I'm not saying that Orton has great wrestling skills or anything (though I personally don't see the huge fuss about his supposed lack of skills, but nevermind that), I'm just saying that I'm always entertained by him. I've actually liked him ever since I first saw him (which was back when he just turned babyface for the first time and feuded with Evolution), and I think he has constantly gotten better ever since. Especially during the last year or so.</p><p> </p><p> Granted, I don't watch a lot of wrestling these days - I just catch a bit here and there.</p>

[Tha Black Phenom]

<p>I used to hate Randy Orton with a passion. 04 face Orton totally turned me off(the stuttering, ****y grin, sex-symbol hype) and I disliked him all the way up until 2007. Then the punts to the head started... something started there and I could see it in the corner of my eye. The gimmick evolved and I grew into liking him again. Once his mannerisms became akin to a cold calculating killer in the ring, I thought he'd find his stride and would replace Triple H as that dominating #1 heel who squashes everyone to piss off the fans. But instead the Legacy stable bull**** started, making Orton look like a piss poor coward, and it didn't help I'm no fan of Cody and DiBiase.</p><p> </p><p>

As of now I enjoy his face-tweenerish run, and I hope they build expand on it. Make him a bigger face than he is, have him get a run with the title as a face and he could maybe serve as proponent for a Cena heel turn down the line. Both sell crazy merchandise as it is, and would whatever their disposition becomes.</p>

[Candyman]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="crownsy" data-cite="crownsy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Nope, I am as well.<p> </p><p> IT's just that Orton has become the IWC's new hate target to offset the Y2J worship.</p><p> </p><p> Somehow Cena's moved from hate target to "he sucks, but whatever" around the net while Orton has become the new "omfg what an awful worker" target.</p><p> </p><p> I suspect it's because Randy's a face now.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> If it helps, I've always said that about Orton. The funniest thing to me was always, when Orton was a heel, the people that would complain about how boring Cena is because he only has a few moves and whatever, and then turn around and wet themselves over Orton...it's like, hello, even with Cena's 5 moves he has twice as many as Orton. At least Cena is entertaining on the mic...oh yeah, and he's not a jackass. As far as I'm concerned, Orton is a real world Big Smack Scott. Even if he has grown up lately like some say(which could be temporary, or stuff's just not getting out), he's still incredibly boring to me. It's painful to watch him try to cut a promo and I don't think he adds much in the ring.</p>

[Genadi]

Cena is good because he trains and works as hard as he can.

 

Orton is good because he's naturally gifted.

 

That's the difference between the two and where alot of the hate for both comes from imo.

[BurningHamster]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="crownsy" data-cite="crownsy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Nope, I am as well.<p> </p><p> IT's just that Orton has become the IWC's new hate target to offset the Y2J worship.</p><p> </p><p> Somehow Cena's moved from hate target to "he sucks, but whatever" around the net while Orton has become the new "omfg what an awful worker" target.</p><p> </p><p> I suspect it's because Randy's a face now.</p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Really? That's weird as I always thought Orton sucked until about six months ago when he finally got it all together. Man wrestling fans are a fickle bunch.</p><p> </p><p> I find it weird that Y2J is still being said long after anyone really cares to remember what Y2K was all about.</p>

[Candyman]

<p>I just had a horrifying thought. You look at Raw's team, and they have all been attacked by the Nexus...all except Khali. The only thing that happened between Khali and Nexus was that weird promo where his manager/translator/brother turned on him by saying Khali would run from Nexus and walking away, never to be seen again. So, here's my thought...is Ranjin Singh the leader of Nexus???</p><p> </p><p>

They've done dumber things...</p>

[Teh_Showtime]

would you not recruit one of the largest guys in the world to be on your team?

[PeterHilton]

Don't dismiss out of hand just because you think I'm wrong. I'm not dismissing anything YOU are saying, so you shouldn't dismiss anything I am saying, either. I just disagree with your opinion, and some of your conclusions (and some of facts, or at least your usage).

 

No..that's fine....because what you're saying ...

 

In any, it's pretty darn obvious that Cena CAN be bigger. I once that too, but that doesn't seem to be ever the case, if you look what the WWE can do and has done. The WWE can't push crap... but they can push averages. Look, people thought that they could have never pushed Triple H. They did. People thought they couldn't push Batista. They did. Heck, people thought the Rock couldn't get over. Need I say more?

 

..doesn't make sense.

 

The idea that the WWE would go out of it's way to keep someone from being TOO popular, yet somehow have some kind of magical formula to get someone JUST POPULAR ENOUGH to be the biggest star in wrestling is patendledly dumb, unrealistic, and mind-blowingly smarkish.

 

Alo...the last comment implies "people" thought The Rock wouldn't get over, but somehow the E apllied some magic and BOOM he was the biggest star in wrestling.

 

It ignores the fact that A)people are often wrong and B) the Rock had immense talent to go with opportunity.

 

Do we have to list the dozens of guys like Chris Masters and Rob Conway and Billy Gunn who got the same type of exposure and push and fell on their faces.

 

I'm sorry..but I just reject completely the notion that the WWE doesn't want to have Austin and Rock level stars, that Cena is somehow being nerfed, or that the WWE would've been able to keep Rock or Austin from blowing up as they did, while somehow turning them into top level stars.

 

EDIT: i don't want to be insulting...I just reject that idea totally.

[The Final Countdown]

Do we have to list the dozens of guys like Chris Masters and Rob Conway and Billy Gunn who got the same type of exposure and push and fell on their faces.

When was Rob Conway ever given that kind of push? I'm not being smarky or sarcastic; I really don't remember him ever having any sort of sustained push as a singles guy. The closest was probably during his days as a Rick Rude knockoff, but I wouldn't classify that as anything close to the opportunity given to Masters or Gunn. But maybe my memory is foggy.

[Stennick]

I always thought Conway would have been a solid mid carder but never got the chance. He had the in ring skills (apparently) in OVW running with Dinsmore but he never got a chance to really show anything off.

 

I liked what little I saw of Conway kinda surprised he never surfaced anywhere.

[ampulator]

No..that's fine....because what you're saying ...

 

 

 

..doesn't make sense.

 

The idea that the WWE would go out of it's way to keep someone from being TOO popular, yet somehow have some kind of magical formula to get someone JUST POPULAR ENOUGH to be the biggest star in wrestling is patendledly dumb, unrealistic, and mind-blowingly smarkish.

 

Alo...the last comment implies "people" thought The Rock wouldn't get over, but somehow the E apllied some magic and BOOM he was the biggest star in wrestling.

 

It ignores the fact that A)people are often wrong and B) the Rock had immense talent to go with opportunity.

 

Do we have to list the dozens of guys like Chris Masters and Rob Conway and Billy Gunn who got the same type of exposure and push and fell on their faces.

 

I'm sorry..but I just reject completely the notion that the WWE doesn't want to have Austin and Rock level stars, that Cena is somehow being nerfed, or that the WWE would've been able to keep Rock or Austin from blowing up as they did, while somehow turning them into top level stars.

 

EDIT: i don't want to be insulting...I just reject that idea totally.

Although that's a fair counter-argument, consider this... if they DIDN'T hold Cena back, the only other logical conclusion is they screwed up.

 

Now, I only came to previous conclusion reluctantly. I stand by it now, but I didn't fully want to believe it. But the other is... they screwed up, especially when they didn't need to.

 

I rather believe they are actually controlling, rather than being incompetent, because that would mean some people claming that WWE is being run by morons is actually correct. I DO NOT want to believe that.

 

I always thought Conway would have been a solid mid carder but never got the chance. He had the in ring skills (apparently) in OVW running with Dinsmore but he never got a chance to really show anything off.

 

I liked what little I saw of Conway kinda surprised he never surfaced anywhere.

 

The reason is, and this neither Conway's, nor Jim Cornette's, fault, is he was trained old-school.

 

Conway was trained to be a solid worker, and he was, but the WWE style was never a fit for him. Unfortunately, there is NWA-style promotions anymore, so he basically lucked out.

[crownsy]

Although that's a fair counter-argument, consider this... if they DIDN'T hold Cena back, the only other logical conclusion is they screwed up.

 

Now, I only came to previous conclusion reluctantly. I stand by it now, but I didn't fully want to believe it. But the other is... they screwed up, especially when they didn't need to.

 

I rather believe they are actually controlling, rather than being incompetent, because that would mean some people claming that WWE is being run by morons is actually correct. I DO NOT want to believe that.

 

 

 

The reason is, and this neither Conway's, nor Jim Cornette's, fault, is he was trained old-school.

 

Conway was trained to be a solid worker, and he was, but the WWE style was never a fit for him. Unfortunately, there is NWA-style promotions anymore, so he basically lucked out.

 

Isn't the other conclusion that John Cena, while a very nice draw, is not on the level of SCSA and the Rock?

 

Not being a dink, i just don't see how the fact that John Cena is not carrying the product the way those guys did is either:

 

A: because they deliberately hold him back

 

or

 

B: because they screwed up

 

Isn't C in play, namely that Cena just plain isn't as much of a draw as those two? The Rock and Austin were once every 20 year talents IMO, up there with HBK, Hogan and Flair. I don't believe anyone that's come along since can match them.

 

John Cena's a solid Lead babyface, but he isn't those guys, not in ring work and CERTAINLY not in charisma and star factor.

[ampulator]

Isn't the other conclusion that John Cena, while a very nice draw, is not on the level of SCSA and the Rock?

 

Not being a dink, i just don't see how the fact that John Cena is not carrying the product the way those guys did is either:

 

A: because they deliberately hold him back

 

or

 

B: because they screwed up

 

Isn't C in play, namely that Cena just plain isn't as much of a draw as those two? The Rock and Austin were once every 20 year talents IMO, up there with HBK, Hogan and Flair. I don't believe anyone that's come along since can match them.

 

John Cena's a solid Lead babyface, but he isn't those guys, not in ring work and CERTAINLY not in charisma and star factor.

That's a possibility, but I can't see that to be true. If Peter Hilton is right... that WWE isn't holding him back, then he should be sprouting up if they aren't screwing

 

The problem is, if the blame is to laid on him, then the booking and writing is his fault... which it isn't. He has no control over booking or writing. Almost everyone prefers his pre-clean-cut-babyface character.

 

He doesn't have to bhe Rock/Stone Cold/Flair/Hogan level, but he can be just RIGHT under it. But he isn't. Not even close.

 

Do you see anyone complain when he was booked or written correctly? There are grumbles here and there, but people have been complaining hard as they used to be... the only difference is there is less people complaining because some of those people simply stopped watching.

 

I never thought Mick Foley had all that star power. He had charisma and mic work? Yes. HIs ringwork? it depends. In his later years, especially in the WWE, it went WAY down. But the ooked him well and correctly at the height of his WWF career.

[crownsy]

 

He doesn't have to bhe Rock/Stone Cold/Flair/Hogan level, but he can be just RIGHT under it. But he isn't. Not even close.

 

 

I guess that's where we part ways, to me he's not even close on his best day, and thats on him not some conspiracy or screw up to keep him less popular than the stars of old.

 

His ringwork isn't as good, his mic work isn't even close, he's not as charismatic nor as dynamic. To put it simply, people outside those who watch wrestling don't give a damn. That's what the other stars mentioned had, the ability to get at the person who might not watch wrestling without them to tune in.

 

He is what he is, a very solid M/E, but if he had made his debut in the late 90's, he would have been a 4th rate M/E at best, behind guys like Rock, Austin, Brock, Eddie, Angle in his prime ect ect.

 

He is simply not at that level, but unfortunately for the industry, right now he's the Best guy WWE has to push to move merch alongside Orton.

 

Neither of those guys is dynamic enough to capture the casual fan, they simply aren't as talented.

 

That's not to say they aren't good wrestlers, but i feel it does far more to explain why Cena and the Current "young" M/E crew isn't as over. They aren't as interesting, period.

 

That's not to say they aren't great workers, just that they aren't going to be able to recapture what Rock and SCSA and others had, no matter how they are booked. They don't have the talent.

 

That's my opinion, anyway.

[BurningHamster]

When was Rob Conway ever given that kind of push? I'm not being smarky or sarcastic; I really don't remember him ever having any sort of sustained push as a singles guy. The closest was probably during his days as a Rick Rude knockoff, but I wouldn't classify that as anything close to the opportunity given to Masters or Gunn. But maybe my memory is foggy.

 

Yeah, plus wasn't Rob Conway pretty much the poster boy for being kept in OVW long beyond he should have been due to not being a fit for the WWE style while musclehead lugnuts were brought into the main roster ahead of him?

[PeterHilton]

When was Rob Conway ever given that kind of push? I'm not being smarky or sarcastic; I really don't remember him ever having any sort of sustained push as a singles guy. The closest was probably during his days as a Rick Rude knockoff, but I wouldn't classify that as anything close to the opportunity given to Masters or Gunn. But maybe my memory is foggy.

 

He was given a noticeable amount of rn and fell flat on his face. he probably wasn't expected to be a superstar, but at least a midlevel heel and he didn't even acomplish that.

 

Although that's a fair counter-argument, consider this... if they DIDN'T hold Cena back, the only other logical conclusion is they screwed up.

 

I rather believe they are actually controlling, rather than being incompetent, because that would mean some people claming that WWE is being run by morons is actually correct. I DO NOT want to believe that.

 

No, it isn't. that isn't the only option. And again..your idea that the WWE has THAT MUCH CONTROL over the audience begs the question: if they can predict to such a degree how to make a star, why don't they just make more stars?

 

(oh that's right beause they'll leave)

 

Isn't the other conclusion that John Cena, while a very nice draw, is not on the level of SCSA and the Rock?

 

This. Cena isn't as talented.

 

He doesn't have to bhe Rock/Stone Cold/Flair/Hogan level, but he can be just RIGHT under it. But he isn't. Not even close.

 

He's the biggest star in the industry and one of the top 5 or 10 draws of all time.

 

Your expectations are too high and you are mistaking YOUR personal bias for what is popular opinion. YOU don't like the way he's been booked, but quite a few people do

 

John Cena is the biggest star in wrestling ans had been for years. Sure, he's not as popular as Rock or SCSA are -because he's not as talented or charismatic, not because of some paranoid scheme by the WWE - but he's a bigger star than 99.9999999% of anyone who's ever laced up a pair of boots.

[ampulator]

He was given a noticeable amount of rn and fell flat on his face. he probably wasn't expected to be a superstar, but at least a midlevel heel and he didn't even acomplish that.

 

 

 

No, it isn't. that isn't the only option. And again..your idea that the WWE has THAT MUCH CONTROL over the audience begs the question: if they can predict to such a degree how to make a star, why don't they just make more stars?

 

(oh that's right beause they'll leave)

 

 

 

This. Cena isn't as talented.

 

 

 

He's the biggest star in the industry and one of the top 5 or 10 draws of all time.

 

Your expectations are too high and you are mistaking YOUR personal bias for what is popular opinion. YOU don't like the way he's been booked, but quite a few people do

 

John Cena is the biggest star in wrestling ans had been for years. Sure, he's not as popular as Rock or SCSA are -because he's not as talented or charismatic, not because of some paranoid scheme by the WWE - but he's a bigger star than 99.9999999% of anyone who's ever laced up a pair of boots.

The thing is, though, he DID (not so sure about now) had what it take it take to reach the next level. He was so close before they gave him this gimmick that makes him seem wooden and aritificial. He was THIS close, until they changed his gimmick and character. And then it went downhill from there.

 

And honestly, I don't think Cena, skill-wise, is really that far off from the Rock and Stone Cold. Charisma? Maybe. But with the exceptoin of psychology, I can't see how his in-ring skills is that much less. His main difference is his gimmick doesn't fit him too well, while the Rock and Stone Cold had a great gimmick. Now, who has control over that? WWE.

 

And two, I know that my position isn't that popular opinion. But it doesn't really matter, does it? I'm not trying to. It's about how they get more ouf of him. It's literally saying "this is his limit. He's never going to be more". And that's why I'm saying WWE booking is either too stringent or too incompetent, because a guy like Paul Heyman know when ne needed to carefully guid someone and went to take risks to let certain workers do what they needed.

 

I would love to believe Cena is not talented enough. But if that's the case, then I wouldn't him as the top guy, either. I would like to accept this conclusion, but that would mean WWE is pushing people that doens't meet the minimum in terms of quality. People complain about Hogan, but, when the big payoff match came, he delivered. Either Cena can't, or he's not being allowed to. Which one would rather have me believe? Now, are matches the most important thing in WWE? No. But you must have, the very least, have good pay-off matches. This is the end of storyline.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Cena does have good payoff matches. HBK, Umaga, Trips, Edge, Angle etc.