The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[crownsy]

He's Kurt Angle from 1999 in 2010.

 

I'd disagree, Kurt was more of a technical beast sold with a gimmick of being over the top goofy and oblivious to his goofyness when face, and a "no gimmick needed" BA when heel.

 

Swagger's sold as more of a frat boy who just doesn't care that people think he's corney because he can overpower anyone he wants.

 

There similar of course, in a ton of ways, but i wouldn't say it's a straight rip of the gimmick. Not for lack of trying on the E's part though.

[SaySo]

WWE is in the process of changing all Raw house show lineups from John Cena to Juan Cena, who will be Cena most likely under a mask, billed as his Mexican cousin, and doing the old Midnight Rider gimmick.

 

Credit: Wrestling Observer

[20LEgend]

WWE is in the process of changing all Raw house show lineups from John Cena to Juan Cena, who will be Cena most likely under a mask, billed as his Mexican cousin, and doing the old Midnight Rider gimmick.

 

Credit: Wrestling Observer

 

This is a joke... right?

 

Having googled it someones set up a Juan Cena Twitter, and I hope this isn't real

[SaySo]

 

LoL. I remember Hogan don the Mr. America mask and so on. I thought Cena would go under Mr. Universe. However, hopefully the Masked Juan Cena actually do appear.

 

I got the article from wrestlingforums. Maybe someone there came up with a scam. Let's wait and see though.

 

Remember The Miz got kicked out of WWE last year. There was a contract on a pole match between Eugene and The Calgary Kid...who was The Miz, in the Summer of 2009.

[Slim Jim]

Pretty sure it's just for house shows, and he won't be appearing as "Juan" on Raw. Fans will have already bought tickets (presumably) for the upcoming house shows, on the assumption that Cena will be there. WWE are keeping kayfabe in a light-hearted way (in that Cena is "fired") but without pulling him from shows where people have paid to see him.

[Teh_Showtime]

Does anyone else think Morrison is gonna challenge for the title at the Rumble?

 

He obviously won't win it, but every year starting at SS, they push someone and that guy starts building momentum going into the new year. For the last 2 years the notable ones have won the title at TLC/Armaggedeon (Sheamus/Jeff Hardy) but the Royal Rumble title matches generally have guys won aren't the main event mainstays at the moment in them.

 

Last year it was Orton challenging Sheamus (who just won the title) and Rey Challenging Taker.

 

I don't consider Rey someone who's not a mainstay on SD, but really nobody thought he would upset Taker right around his peaking months.

 

Just my $0.02 but with Morrison's win over a HEAVILY protected Sheamus as of late (I mean, he had to have a double count out with Show at Bragging Rights) Morrison looks like he will be the first new contender for the Miz's title.

 

It could be good, it could be great, but it could also epically backfire as the main event which is why it will happen at the Rumble where it won't be pressured to be the best match on the show.

[Stennick]

[Johnny Fenoli]

The younger brother of Dolph Ziggler, Ryan Nemeth, 26, started training with OVW in Louisville about four months ago. He’s said to be a taller, better looking version of Ziggler who is past his brother as a pro at

this stage of the game. He also has an MA in English from Xavier University and is the author of a novel titled, I Can Make Out With Any Girl Here.

 

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/a4/65/68679df2621d0a7f0235b8.L._V184663266_SL290_.jpg

[ampulator]

If Miz's win didn't convince people that WWE's audience still has a healthy number of marks, nothing will. And the idea that these marks are so workrate obsessed that they're going to turn from the product if a match isn't great is just preposterous. Remember how we all turned on Hulk Hogan after he had a bad match with Andre?

 

There is no question but that Wade Barrett is ready to be champion. Beyond having a great look that reminds me of a less bulky Triple H circa 1996, he's got charisma that is off the charts for a rookie. He's generating some of the best heat of any guy in the company, and has been for months. Beyond which, with two brands and two top titles, being champion today isn't the same pressure to produce it was 20 or even 10 years ago. I mean Orton and Batista were champs on Raw last year without main eventing pay per views because Hardy was the hottest act in the company at that point. Two years ago Punk's title reign saw him main event exactly zero pay per views, to the point that he was taken out before a main event that he was actually scheduled in.

 

And like you said, as much love as we have for guys like Triple H or the Rock for their role in the Attitude era, neither was anything that special in the ring. Rock was very athletic and could generate more heat with his facial expressions than just about anybody I've ever seen, but his offense never looked amazing and actually became more limited as he started working longer matches; when he was an upper midcarder he still did flip-around DDT's and Samoan Drops and other big athletic spots, but as he transitioned into a main eventer, he dialed those back, the same way Cena and every other WWE main eventer dials back their offense to fit the main event style.

Here's the problem, though. The Miz is IWC-approved. That throws a kink in what you say. Plus, the Miz is actually better in the ring than Cena, Orton, or Barrett. Does he have a deeper move set? Not by much, but he can that Cena, Orton, and Barrett can't do, is, he can do more with less. Those three? They can't. Miz can also work in match with better opponents without looking totally out of his element or looking like he's out-classed. The same cannot be said for the previous three.

 

To say Miz isn't better in the ring than in the ring is a disservice to his hard work at trying to get better, evein the in the ring.

[Genadi]

Here's the problem, though. The Miz is IWC-approved. That throws a kink in what you say. Plus, the Miz is actually better in the ring than Cena, Orton, or Barrett.

 

I wouldn't go as far as to say The Miz is IWC approved. I disagree about him being a better worker than Orton and even Cena, it's largely subjective though so meh.

[Stennick]

I have no idea what you're basing your in ring work on but in my opinion both Barrett and Cena are better and Orton may be as well.

 

I like The Miz, I like him a lot, but he's barely approved on these boards with I'd say a 60/40 reaction in favor of him winning the title.

 

That being said The Miz has come a long way and I recognize his hard work.

[ampulator]

How is ring work better? He doesn't look stiff when he does he moves. He doesn't look awkward and forced in the ring as much as Cena does. He doesn't just goes for "head locks" of doom like Orton did, though Orotn has done them less now. Barrett is just... basic. Sort of like Sheamus. And Drew Mcintyre. And Ted Dibiase Jr. They have nothing wrong with the ringwork, but absolutely positively have ntohing else to it. No ring pscyhology. No technical skills. Not a whole lot of brawling. Definitely no aerial, though I don't think that matters much.

 

The Miz is shown to be able to mesh with others workers Cena's matches almost always end the same way. There is almost always no doubt on how they will end. Same finish. This is also a problem with Orton's matches, too. The Miz? He work with others, and make them look great. His selling is better than Cena's and Orton's. His matches tend to be more exciting and interesting.

 

And I thought the mIz sucked. But he has more tools and range, and he meshes better with other workers. Cena or Orton, the matches are almost always the same. Miz's matches currently are much more dynamic and interesting than theirs. I would say he's almost as good as Cody Rhodes... except he's more popular than Rhodes for some reason.

[Comradebot]

How is ring work better? He doesn't look stiff when he does he moves. He doesn't look awkward and forced in the ring as much as Cena does. He doesn't just goes for "head locks" of doom like Orton did, though Orotn has done them less now. Barrett is just... basic. Sort of like Sheamus. And Drew Mcintyre. And Ted Dibiase Jr. They have nothing wrong with the ringwork, but absolutely positively have ntohing else to it. No ring pscyhology. No technical skills. Not a whole lot of brawling. Definitely no aerial, though I don't think that matters much.

 

The Miz is shown to be able to mesh with others workers Cena's matches almost always end the same way. There is almost always no doubt on how they will end. Same finish. This is also a problem with Orton's matches, too. The Miz? He work with others, and make them look great. His selling is better than Cena's and Orton's. His matches tend to be more exciting and interesting.

 

And I thought the mIz sucked. But he has more tools and range, and he meshes better with other workers. Cena or Orton, the matches are almost always the same. Miz's matches currently are much more dynamic and interesting than theirs. I would say he's almost as good as Cody Rhodes... except he's more popular than Rhodes for some reason.

 

Maybe because you couldn't fill a thimble with Rhodes's charisma?

[Self]

Maybe because you couldn't fill a thimble with Rhodes's charisma?

 

Did you see his freak out at getting slapped at Survivor Series??? That was pretty much the highlight of the entire show.

[Candyman]

Does anyone else think Morrison is gonna challenge for the title at the Rumble?

 

He obviously won't win it, but every year starting at SS, they push someone and that guy starts building momentum going into the new year. For the last 2 years the notable ones have won the title at TLC/Armaggedeon (Sheamus/Jeff Hardy) but the Royal Rumble title matches generally have guys won aren't the main event mainstays at the moment in them.

 

Last year it was Orton challenging Sheamus (who just won the title) and Rey Challenging Taker.

 

I don't consider Rey someone who's not a mainstay on SD, but really nobody thought he would upset Taker right around his peaking months.

 

Just my $0.02 but with Morrison's win over a HEAVILY protected Sheamus as of late (I mean, he had to have a double count out with Show at Bragging Rights) Morrison looks like he will be the first new contender for the Miz's title.

 

It could be good, it could be great, but it could also epically backfire as the main event which is why it will happen at the Rumble where it won't be pressured to be the best match on the show.

 

Yeah, Royal Rumble is always a popular place for somebody to get their first crack at a title. Guys like Umaga, Kennedy, Mark Henry, and Hardcore Holly come to mind. On a card with Kane vs. Edge, Cena vs. Barrett, and the Royal Rumble match, Miz vs. Morrison would have no pressure on it.

[The Celt]

Comradebot: Cody Rhodes has no zero charisma

 

CB, may I remind you of something?

 

[djthefunkchris]

Comradebot: Cody Rhodes has no zero charisma

 

CB, may I remind you of something?

 

 

I think he lacks charisma, but I also think he can "learn" how to project more (maybe watch old re-runs of his dad).

 

That doesn't mean he can't talk though. I have always been impressed with his mic skills, but those are two different characteristics. You can talk a great talk, but if no one listens, that's all it is... talk.

 

An example I just thought of is Rey Mysterio... Probably not the best example, but it's the one that just popped in my mind. Rey doesn't have half the mic skills of Cody IMO, but when he talks, everyone listens. That's charisma.

[ampulator]

Maybe because you couldn't fill a thimble with Rhodes's charisma?

I think Cody Rhodes has a lot of Charisma. I thiink the real issue, people just don't "buy" into him. It is what it is. I mean, if you want to talk about a lack of charisma, Ted Jr, Drew McIntyre, and Sheamus are dull as wood. Wade isn't the most charismatic, but his good on the mic, which makes up for it.

 

Cody has plent of charisma, it's just that, people don't buy into him and his style. I can see people disliking his old-school style. In fact, the WWE fans seem to dislike most "old-school" stuff anyway, so...

[PeterHilton]

Good lord, ampulator, it's like we're not even watching the same show/promotion. No wonder we never agree.

 

On this page alone you've said The Miz is a better and more exciting worker than Cena (even though Cena has years of matches to go through and just his matches with HBK and Angle alone would prove you wrong, not to mention the fact he made Umaga look good and even Khali look acceptable) and called Sheamus 'dull as wood' when just a few months back Sheamus has the crowd eating up his act as the top heel in his feuds with HHH and Orton.

 

I know it's all opinions but...wow..just wow

[ampulator]

Good lord, ampulator, it's like we're not even watching the same show/promotion. No wonder we never agree.

 

On this page alone you've said The Miz is a better and more exciting worker than Cena (even though Cena has years of matches to go through and just his matches with HBK and Angle alone would prove you wrong, not to mention the fact he made Umaga look good and even Khali look acceptable) and called Sheamus 'dull as wood' when just a few months back Sheamus has the crowd eating up his act as the top heel in his feuds with HHH and Orton.

 

I know it's all opinions but...wow..just wow

Oh Sheamus has mic skills, I'd give him that. But he isn't exactly charismatic. As for his work with HBK, I hated those matches. Easily not HBK's top matches. His matches with Angle? He's WRESTLING KURT ANGLE. If you have bad matches with him, you know you are screwing up. And besides, Angle did all the wrestling in his matches against Cena. Not impressed. As for Umaga, you bring up a good point. I don't know why those work together. But they do. I suppose it has more to do with the natural understanding between in the ring, though. Umaga is decent worker, but not great. As for Khali? His matches are just plain not good. I don't really complain about Khali, though, because... well, it's Khali. What the heck can except out of him?

 

As for Sheamus, good on the mic, but not a whole of charisma. Kind of Drew McIntyre except with less accent and better at organizing at his words. But also like him, not a whole lot of charisma. I dont' hate Sheamus either. I just can't get angry or mad at anything he does. I just don't feel anything. Period.

 

And as s reference, I don't think Orton has a lot of charisma, either. But he has a good gimmick, which helps. For me, Rey Mysterio has charism. JoMo has charisma, even though he blows on the mic. Jeff Hardy has Charisma. The MIz. The Rock. Stone Cold. VinceMac. C.M. Punk. Edge. I can go on. Sheamus isn't one of those people.

[PeterHilton]

RE Sheamus: Considering the reactions he got from the crowd I think the more fair way of putting it is that he's just not your personal cup of tea. YOU don't like him but it appears as though most of the crowd bought into him from a charisma standpoint

 

RE Cena:

 

Fine ...whatever..if your evaluation of a worker involves snarky internet ideas like 'work rate' and 'move set' then Cena is a TERRIBLE worker. Awful. But so are guys like Hogan, Sting, The Rock, Kevin Nash, and Austin (post neck injury)

 

But if you get over yourself and realize wrestling is about entertainment and the purpose is to get fans emotionally invested in what's happening in the ring then you'd see that all of those guys - including Cena - are far better than they're given credit for. Which is why they're among the most successful in the industry.

 

Cena has made guys like Bobby Lashley, Umaga, and yes even Khali look interesting in the ring. The crowd was into it. And his matches with HBK and Angle were even rated highly by internet columnists like Meltzer.

 

YOU don't like him. I get that. But if the 90% of the viewing public is willing to pay hard money to watch him - either to root for or against - then he's doing something right and he is (by the only definition of wrestling that matters, his ability to draw)a good worker.

[ampulator]

RE Sheamus: Considering the reactions he got from the crowd I think the more fair way of putting it is that he's just not your personal cup of tea. YOU don't like him but it appears as though most of the crowd bought into him from a charisma standpoint

 

RE Cena:

 

Fine ...whatever..if your evaluation of a worker involves snarky internet ideas like 'work rate' and 'move set' then Cena is a TERRIBLE worker. Awful. But so are guys like Hogan, Sting, The Rock, Kevin Nash, and Austin (post neck injury)

 

But if you get over yourself and realize wrestling is about entertainment and the purpose is to get fans emotionally invested in what's happening in the ring then you'd see that all of those guys - including Cena - are far better than they're given credit for. Which is why they're among the most successful in the industry.

 

Cena has made guys like Bobby Lashley, Umaga, and yes even Khali look interesting in the ring. The crowd was into it. And his matches with HBK and Angle were even rated highly by internet columnists like Meltzer.

 

YOU don't like him. I get that. But if the 90% of the viewing public is willing to pay hard money to watch him - either to root for or against - then he's doing something right and he is (by the only definition of wrestling that matters, his ability to draw)a good worker.

You wrong. It's not that I don't like him. It's... I just don't care. I don't even hate him, to be honest. I just can't get myself to care about him.

 

And more importantly, just because the majority says something is good, doesn't mean it is. It just merely means a majority says it's good. Are they right a lot of times? Yes. But they are also wrong a lot of times.

 

Me liking Sheamus has nothing to do with my evaluation. I don't hate or like him. I'm close to neutral on him as anyone can be.

 

Cena? It's not that I dislike him. It's just that, no matter what anyone says to me, no one has shown me enough evidence that he is, in fact, a good worker. Can he get a reaction out of a certain kind of fan? Yes. Can he get a good reaction ouf of a certain kind of a fan? Yes. Does that means he's a good worker? No.

 

And his matches against HBK and Angle? they are HBK and Kurt angle. Guess what? LIke I said before, if you have matches with them, you must be really bad. It's really hard to screw against those two.

 

You and I will rarely see eye-to-eye. I've come to accept that. In 10 or so years, I'd be gone, and YOU will be the one complaining about how wrestling has gone downhill. Then you'll realize whether I'm right or wrong. I suspect it's the first.

[Self]

Cena may or may not only be good at playing to one kind of fan, but when it's the type of fans who watch the biggest promotion in North America, and clamor for merchandise, you can do a lot worse. I'd rather make a ton of money than be a versatile, multi-faceted worker. Haven't watched a Cena match in ages, but that's more down to my dislike of the WWE style than his own work.

 

I wouldn't say Sheamus has a great deal of 'charisma' but I do think he has 'presence'. A unique and interesting look, I find he looks more convincingly formidable than the Drew McIntyres of the world. He isn't yet exceptional enough to be a narrative force by himself, but when paired with a strong, beloved babyface, I find him an effective and capable foil.

[ampulator]

Cena may or may not only be good at playing to one kind of fan, but when it's the type of fans who watch the biggest promotion in North America, and clamor for merchandise, you can do a lot worse. I'd rather make a ton of money than be a versatile, multi-faceted worker. Haven't watched a Cena match in ages, but that's more down to my dislike of the WWE style than his own work.

 

I wouldn't say Sheamus has a great deal of 'charisma' but I do think he has 'presence'. A unique and interesting look, I find he looks more convincingly formidable than the Drew McIntyres of the world. He isn't yet exceptional enough to be a narrative force by himself, but when paired with a strong, beloved babyface, I find him an effective and capable foil.

That's a better point to make, especially on Sheamus.

[PeterHilton]

Cena? It's not that I dislike him. It's just that, no matter what anyone says to me, no one has shown me enough evidence that he is, in fact, a good worker. Can he get a reaction out of a certain kind of fan? Yes. Can he get a good reaction ouf of a certain kind of a fan? Yes. Does that means he's a good worker? No.

 

 

Yes, it does.

 

Because that 'certain type of fan' makes up the vast majority of the audience that watches the programming, buys PPVs, and pays for merchandise. Who gives a crap if internet nerds like him? Why does anyone need to provide 'evidence?'

 

Being a 'good worker' means you get people to pay to watch you. I've read interviews with everyone from Bill Watts to Bobby Heenan to Jim Cornette and they all say the same thing: if people pay to watch you, you're a good worker. Period. And I'd stand buy their opinion 1000 times over before I care what a bunch of smarks on a message board say.

 

So knock yourself out talking about he's a bad worker. Because it's just YOU. That's all. YOU are entitled to YOUR opinion but that's all it is. Cena has generated millions of dollars in revenue for the biggest promotion on the planet...that means A LOT more than whether or not he pleases the IWC