The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Bull]

just read on SESCOOPS that the original Sin Cara is returning to feud with Hunico's Sin Cara. That is why he attacked DB after there match on Smackdown Tuesday.

[Hulkamaniac85]

For the most part I have been enjoying the WWE lately. It seems to me that they have plans in place at the moment, and for the most part are sticking to those plans with goals in mind. I could be wrong, but that's how I feel about it currently...

 

Cena's character is starting to seem fresher to me, with his slight change in language back to a slightly more "attitude-esque" style, and him capitalizing on outside help from Nash WITH the announcers clearly pointing that out on the next episode. Also everybody that cuts a promo on Cena now talks about how he is attention starved since Punk brought that up. The Cena stuff is seeming good to me right now (though I have noticed that his promos have seemed much weaker since the hiatus of the Punk confrontations ie: His promo with ADR's ring announcer and with Wade Barrett both seemed verrrry weak to me, even tho Cena is usually good on the mic).

 

Punk is continuing on his course of fighting with the establishment, which I think is a good idea, and I think its all going to come back to Cena. I kind of just see it as whoever is shown to be pulling the strings on bringing Nash back and all the other conspiracy stuff, its all going to be at an end goal of showing that Cena is the golden boy of the person/WWE, which will make Punk come full circle back to an epic showdown with Cena. I don't think this means Cena will turn tho, I think he will remain as he is, the young fans cheering him, the males booing him. The only thing I truly think will change is that he is going to be presented as kind of "golden boy/favorite son" of whoever is shown to be the mastermind, and Cena will continually say he doesn't need any help, but will regardless get the help. Just my guess on how that is going to play out over the LONG run up til Rumble, where I bet he wins the rumble, gets the title shot the month before WM, and wins the belt....

 

I don't think he will hold the belt going into WM tho. That brings me to Bryan, I think the purpose of him losing now is so that it makes sense when he suddenly decides to cash in before WM. I think he will continue to lose and lose and lose, until we are given the story of him second guessing his choice to cash in at Mania, and then will out of the blue cash in on Cena at the PPV right before Mania to win the title from Cena (and probably turn heel or make Cena look like a poor sport for being angry he cannot take the title into WM for The Rock match)

 

Thats basically my thought on what things as they are right now will lead to. And of course I might be totally wrong, and that will be fine. All of it has me interested right now though, and I wouldn't say they've messed anything up yet. Really just have to watch these stories til their conclusion to know that, and of course looking back is always 20/20, but I see potential in all of the stuff going on right now regardless of which way they go.

 

Sorry about the long post lol

[Hashasheen]

And I disagree about Cena not needing to turn until his merch numbers fall. I think it'd be foolish to protect his merch numbers while the rest of the business suffers. I think the WWE is at a major crossroads right now. Their past superstars are either retiring, leaving to do other things or being severely limited by old age and injuries. That's left them in the position where they've pretty much got Cena and Orton now. If they're unwilling to do what needs to be done in order to build some stars for the future (and the present), I don't know how much help Cena's merch numbers will be.

It's not just merch numbers. Cena's a major draw for the WWE in all factors including Ratings. Why do you think McMahon's never taken him to Smackdown while he has Triple H, and why Raw often sees major heel invasions in Drafts and the like (Nexus)? USA Network won't allow Cena off of Raw.

[Fantabulous]

USA Network have zero say on Cena moving from Raw to Smackdown or any wrestler moving brands. WWE simply keep their top-guy on their 'A' show.

[Zeel1]

So after the last Raw, Jericho tweeted about Punk stealing one of his moves. I didn't remember him doing that when I saw it live, so out of curiosity, I rewatched it again, looking for the moves that were the most Jerichoesque.

 

For anyone else that might've been wondering, I'm fairly certain it was the Double Underhook Backbreaker...

[Hive]

So after the last Raw, Jericho tweeted about Punk stealing one of his moves. I didn't remember him doing that when I saw it live, so out of curiosity, I rewatched it again, looking for the moves that were the most Jerichoesque.

 

For anyone else that might've been wondering, I'm fairly certain it was the Double Underhook Backbreaker...

 

I think it was a reference to him using Randy Savage's Elbow Drop...?

[Fantabulous]

It probably was the Double Underhook Backbreaker Jericho was talking about. Jericho's been twittering, in character, knocking Punk for a while, which one presumes is to set up a feud down the line or is simply being done to get people talking.

 

On the bright side for Original Sin Cara fans, he's now scheduled to come back.

[Moe Hunter]

Huh, Jericho hasn't been paying attention to Punk for long then... He's done it for years and years. He did it in his early days in ECW. He did it back in ROH.

 

"Welcome to Chicago, MFer!"

[bigtplaystew]

Huh, Jericho hasn't been paying attention to Punk for long then... He's done it for years and years. He did it in his early days in ECW. He did it back in ROH.

 

"Welcome to Chicago, MFer!"

 

It's pretty much common consensus that Jericho's in-character when he's bashing Punk.

[juggaloninjalee]

Very true. They would need other active wrestlers to join in the group. I think it'd be a perfect spot for Dolph Ziggler, a guy I think is a serious main event level talent just needing the proper push. Wade Barrett and The Miz are the other two I'd like to see getting pushed, but I don't think either one of them would fit a new nWo right now.

 

 

 

I'm talking multiple heel turns over the course of an entire career. Of course if you do them too often, it kills the character, but pretty much every popular superstar has had multiple heel turns over the course of their career.

 

And I disagree about Cena not needing to turn until his merch numbers fall. I think it'd be foolish to protect his merch numbers while the rest of the business suffers. I think the WWE is at a major crossroads right now. Their past superstars are either retiring, leaving to do other things or being severely limited by old age and injuries. That's left them in the position where they've pretty much got Cena and Orton now. If they're unwilling to do what needs to be done in order to build some stars for the future (and the present), I don't know how much help Cena's merch numbers will be.

 

I don't think Dolph being in a group with Cena and Nash would make Dolph a main eventer. I think it would do the opposite actually. He would be fed to anyone trying to get to the men on top.

[Self]

I don't think Dolph being in a group with Cena and Nash would make Dolph a main eventer. I think it would do the opposite actually. He would be fed to anyone trying to get to the men on top.

 

It wouldn't make him a main eventer, no, but it would move him up the card a little. He's rubbed shoulders with the big boys before, but being involved with a major storyline would do wonders for him. For anyone, really. Dolph's good, but he's a little generic and his relationship with Vickie is very Edge-lite. Putting him in a major stable, evolving his character, letting him interact regularly with Nash/Cena level dudes, showcasing his personallity in skits that matter, could be cool.

[juggaloninjalee]

It wouldn't make him a main eventer, no, but it would move him up the card a little. He's rubbed shoulders with the big boys before, but being involved with a major storyline would do wonders for him. For anyone, really. Dolph's good, but he's a little generic and his relationship with Vickie is very Edge-lite. Putting him in a major stable, evolving his character, letting him interact regularly with Nash/Cena level dudes, showcasing his personallity in skits that matter, could be cool.

 

I am not saying I wouldn't enjoy Dolph in the group because I probably would but I don't think it would make him a top tier guy like Cena, Orton, or Punk like people want. Dolph reminds me of Mr. Perfect from the early 90s. Good but not quite at the very top of the cards.

[OldStingberg]

I am not saying I wouldn't enjoy Dolph in the group because I probably would but I don't think it would make him a top tier guy like Cena, Orton, or Punk like people want. Dolph reminds me of Mr. Perfect from the early 90s. Good but not quite at the very top of the cards.

 

I didn't say his mere presence in the group would put him on the level of Cena, Punk, or Orton. I said his involvement would elevate him to the point where with a little more of a push he could get to that level. In my thinking-out-loud scenario where Cena turns heel with HHH, Nash, and Ziggler in a few weeks and turns back seven months later or so at the end of WrestleMania, I think it'd make a lot of sense to feud Cena with Ziggler coming out of that WrestleMania. Not only would that be a serious top-level feud while leaving the championships free to elevate other feuds, if it played out pretty evenly with each guy getting a couple clean wins, that would be the program that would elevate Ziggler to main event status.

 

(In my fantasy world, I'd even ideally like Ziggler to beat Taker clean at the next WM. I know a lot of people would hate that, but Taker's streak is probably the biggest tool the WWE has to easily get a heel super over and with Taker's career winding down, next WM is probably as good a time as any. Don't get me wrong, if I were Vince McMahon I certainly wouldn't require Taker to do it, but I'd ask him. And considering the guys that put him over in his first few months in the WWF, I'd hope he'd agree.)

 

It's not just merch numbers. Cena's a major draw for the WWE in all factors including Ratings. Why do you think McMahon's never taken him to Smackdown while he has Triple H, and why Raw often sees major heel invasions in Drafts and the like (Nexus)? USA Network won't allow Cena off of Raw.

 

Of course Cena's a major draw in everything, including ratings. But ratings are down notably even from last year, and they're going down even more. With Edge, HHH, and Taker either retiring or effectively disappearing from active wrestling just in the last six months, the WWE needs more stars. If there's good ways to do that while keeping Cena as a face, great. I'm not sure there is, though, because the same logic that says Cena needs to be a face (he's a huge draw, he brings in money, etc.) is the same logic that would keep heels from ever actually getting over on him. Wade Barrett got literally buried by Cena and has done nothing since, The Miz finished his feud with Cena with three straight losses before moving down to feud with Alex Riley and Jared from Subway, and CM Punk managed two tainted wins before losing the title and being shuffled off to feud with Kevin Nash. The WWE needs to create new, legitimate stars, not just temporarily elevate heels for Cena to beat, and I think turning Cena heel is the best way to do it right now.

[juggaloninjalee]

I didn't say his mere presence in the group would put him on the level of Cena, Punk, or Orton. I said his involvement would elevate him to the point where with a little more of a push he could get to that level. In my thinking-out-loud scenario where Cena turns heel with HHH, Nash, and Ziggler in a few weeks and turns back seven months later or so at the end of WrestleMania, I think it'd make a lot of sense to feud Cena with Ziggler coming out of that WrestleMania. Not only would that be a serious top-level feud while leaving the championships free to elevate other feuds, if it played out pretty evenly with each guy getting a couple clean wins, that would be the program that would elevate Ziggler to main event status.

 

(In my fantasy world, I'd even ideally like Ziggler to beat Taker clean at the next WM. I know a lot of people would hate that, but Taker's streak is probably the biggest tool the WWE has to easily get a heel super over and with Taker's career winding down, next WM is probably as good a time as any. Don't get me wrong, if I were Vince McMahon I certainly wouldn't require Taker to do it, but I'd ask him. And considering the guys that put him over in his first few months in the WWF, I'd hope he'd agree.)

 

 

 

Of course Cena's a major draw in everything, including ratings. But ratings are down notably even from last year, and they're going down even more. With Edge, HHH, and Taker either retiring or effectively disappearing from active wrestling just in the last six months, the WWE needs more stars. If there's good ways to do that while keeping Cena as a face, great. I'm not sure there is, though, because the same logic that says Cena needs to be a face (he's a huge draw, he brings in money, etc.) is the same logic that would keep heels from ever actually getting over on him. Wade Barrett got literally buried by Cena and has done nothing since, The Miz finished his feud with Cena with three straight losses before moving down to feud with Alex Riley and Jared from Subway, and CM Punk managed two tainted wins before being shuffled off to feud with Kevin Nash. The WWE needs to create new, legitimate stars, not just temporarily elevate heels for Cena to beat, and I think turning Cena heel is the best way to do it right now.

 

When you put it that way about when the stable is with him or Cena breaking away from it that makes more sense to elevate him. Much like Evolution didn't make Batista and Orton stars but them going on their own after did.

[djthefunkchris]

I am not saying I wouldn't enjoy Dolph in the group because I probably would but I don't think it would make him a top tier guy like Cena, Orton, or Punk like people want. Dolph reminds me of Mr. Perfect from the early 90s. Good but not quite at the very top of the cards.

 

He's grown on me, but I have to agree here. I don't think they've missed the boat on this guy, he just doesn't have the presence needed to move him up... at least not yet. He could develop it, it's just not really shown outside of brief flash's.

 

Then again, I've never been a fan of the character at all. So that might not give me the objectional viewpoint that I would like to think I have on him.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Ziggler's good but he never says the poignant things that could make him stand out in his promos, nothing that could make you think to give it a second look through Youtube or anything. To me, he has all the needed skills down pat but it's just a matter of standing out and running with the ball.

 

That said, if he was in some sort of supergroup with Cena & al, he'd likely be second fiddle but I wouldn't be surprised if they used it to propel him anyway. They're certainly not hesitant in pushing the new talent today, you just have to be in the right place, right time(in terms of creative team's focus).

[The Shape]

Ziggler is the man. Not sure he'll ever be a very top tier guy, numerous obstacles including the ridiculous name, but as a solid eternal heel with several title reigns, I can see it. Just awesome to watch in the ring and not so clueless on the mic that he ruins it.

[OldStingberg]

Ziggler is the man. Not sure he'll ever be a very top tier guy, numerous obstacles including the ridiculous name, but as a solid eternal heel with several title reigns, I can see it. Just awesome to watch in the ring and not so clueless on the mic that he ruins it.

 

Exactly. He'll never be a pantheon-level heel because his mic skills probably aren't at that level, but he can be a very good main event heel for a long time with the right push. He's good enough on the mic, he's great in the ring, and he's a great actor. I think his facial expressions and body language are top-notch.

[djthefunkchris]

Ziggler is the man. Not sure he'll ever be a very top tier guy, numerous obstacles including the ridiculous name, but as a solid eternal heel with several title reigns, I can see it. Just awesome to watch in the ring and not so clueless on the mic that he ruins it.

 

Exactly. He'll never be a pantheon-level heel because his mic skills probably aren't at that level, but he can be a very good (Transitional) main event heel for a long time with the right push. He's good enough on the mic, he's great in the ring, and he's a great actor. I think his facial expressions and body language are top-notch.

 

I agree with The Shape, not so much OldStingberg though. One word added (the bolded) makes me agree with him as well, though.

 

I see him staying about where he is, perhaps a little higher (upper mid), but I don't see him staying in the top of the card. I do think he can get better though.... and prove me wrong in the future. I felt that John Morrison for the longest was going to be doomed to be midcard and lower, because of the same reasons bassically. However, he changed my mind, and I feel he deserves to be between Mid and Main Event forever more, lol. He can be a good transitional champion, and a good threat, and even a good feud for a champian to be involved with, in my opinion. So could Ziggler, but I just don't see him in there permanantly.

[Teh_Showtime]

Ziggler could very well be a headliner in the future. He is the only one left of the spirit squad fwiw and he can actually get heat on his own. I feel that Vickie is holding him back at this point.

[Rone Rivendale]

It is always hard to see the next big thing as anything more than a midcarder when all they have done is be a midcarder up to that point.

 

I.E. I HATED JBL as a Main Eventer when they first thrust him upon us as a singles wrestler. In fact both me and my best friend at the time said that if JBL won the World Title against Eddie at whichever PPV it was that we would quit watching Smackdown for good. Well, JBL won, and we kept watching. And little by little he grew on me and eventually I considered JBL not only to be main event worthy but one of the best Heels WWE has ever had.

 

So while it's hard to see people like Dolph, Swagger, Kofi, Morrison as main event type wrestlers right now, some day those are going to be the guys who headline WWE PPVs and they will look just as strong as people like Cena, Punk, Orton, etc do now.

[Teh_Showtime]

except JBL was only JBL for a little while. Ziggler's progression has been steady since about 2008. That is where he is different than the likes of Swagger, because he hasn't hit the roof too soon.

[JackKnifed72]

So I rarely, due to my schedule, watch WW_ television, but I caught the main event of Smackdown and a few things came to mind whilst I watched:

 

1 - Good main event, good way to end a feud (I presume that was the end of the feud anyway) ...though, if I got Christian v Orton and Cena v Punk on free TV, I'd be a little p***** off if I had spent money on the recent PPV's

 

2 - Orton is quite over with the live crowds, but I still think Orton is much better as a sadistic heel than a fan favorite

 

3 - I see it's time for Mark Henry's annual MEGA-PUSH...hope it's as exciting as the last few were

 

4 - It's amazing to me that the WW_ can't do a better job at the announce table...As a wrestler I love Booker T...as an announcer? not so much...

..Micheal Cole, as a heel character uhm, ok...if he has a JR or King to bounce off of? sure why not...as the lead announcer? Vintage suckage right there...and Josh Matthews? IDK his voice just SCREAMS Velocity or Jakked when I hear it

 

That's all...just wanted to chime in

 

 

[ZMAN]

There's just too much suck on the SD team, and it makes Booker seem that much worse. I mean, Matthews is decent, but not enough to make Cole or Booker tolerable.

 

JBL was good, but his title reign felt too long, and to the point where it was just draaaagging. I think it would have been better if they chopped in half and had him pick another one up later on.

[Teh_Showtime]

his reign was great because he had moments where he would somehow win, and he could garner so much heat. Like the Last Ride match with Taker and especially the cage match with Big Show were great.