The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[CoutureLegend]

Frankie could probably be legitimately upset that he's unlikely to be offered a rematch, particularly after having to rematch BJ Penn after a much, much more clear-cut decision, not to mention having to face Gray Maynard twice as well.

 

I've not watched that fight for a long time but it definitely wasn't a clear-cut decision for Edgar, if anything alot of people thought Penn edges him out in that fight. Either way it was a razor-thin decision & in my opinion a closer fight than Edgar/Henderson.

 

I also think that the reason BJ Penn got an immediate rematch, aside from the fact that there was a legitimate argument for him winning the fight in Abu Dhabi, but there was also nobody waiting in line for the next shot. I mean it was suppose to be Penn vs. Maynard at UFC 112 but they pulled him because of his performance against Diaz & Maynards next fight after that took place on the same card as Penn/Edgar 2 so if BJ Penn hadn't gotten a rematch with Edgar then really who else was there for him to fight?

[ampulator]

I've not watched that fight for a long time but it definitely wasn't a clear-cut decision for Edgar, if anything alot of people thought Penn edges him out in that fight. Either way it was a razor-thin decision & in my opinion a closer fight than Edgar/Henderson.

 

I also think that the reason BJ Penn got an immediate rematch, aside from the fact that there was a legitimate argument for him winning the fight in Abu Dhabi, but there was also nobody waiting in line for the next shot. I mean it was suppose to be Penn vs. Maynard at UFC 112 but they pulled him because of his performance against Diaz & Maynards next fight after that took place on the same card as Penn/Edgar 2 so if BJ Penn hadn't gotten a rematch with Edgar then really who else was there for him to fight?

I don't recall who was and wasn't in line for the title shot at the time, but I do agree that the Penn/Edgar I was a lot closer than Edgar/Henderson. I would say Penn won that fight. The only reason people think that Edgar won that fight, is because he won the SECOND fight. I would say Maynard either beat or drew with him the first time... and then Edgar KOed Maynard the second time.

[LoNdOn]

I don't recall who was and wasn't in line for the title shot at the time, but I do agree that the Penn/Edgar I was a lot closer than Edgar/Henderson. I would say Penn won that fight. The only reason people think that Edgar won that fight, is because he won the SECOND fight. I would say Maynard either beat or drew with him the first time... and then Edgar KOed Maynard the second time.

 

Nope. I watched the fight when it happened and felt that Edgar won by one point. The second time they fought I felt that he won by a greater margin. So no, it is not the only reason people thought Edgar beat Penn the first time. I didn't know they were going to do an immediate rematch after the fight concluded so I couldn't base who I thought won on a future hypothetical.

[ampulator]

I didn't know they were going to do an immediate rematch after the fight concluded so I couldn't base who I thought won on a future hypothetical.

 

And this has... what to do with what I said? The first part, I can concede it's your opinion, the second part, it is not relevant to what I'm saying, because I didn't say you knew they were going to do an immediate rematch after the fight concluded, and therefore I didn't imply you could or couldn't base who you thought won a future hypothetical that I didn't suggest.

 

My point is, the outcome of second fight influenced on how people felt about the first fight, AFTER the conclusion of the second fight. If you thought Edgar might have won the first fight, then after seeing the second fight, you were darn sure he won the first fight after seeing the second one.

 

It was a close fight, but Penn edged the decision in the first one. In the second one... well, something was wrong with Penn, and Edgar applied the same strategy, except better this time.

[bigtplaystew]

When Frankie had the LIGHTWEIGHT TITLE he's not going to say he's dropping down to 145. Thats stupid. And UFC didn't have a valid 145 division until after he was champion.

 

Then, immediately after the fight, he didn't want to talk about dropping down because he thought (and still thinks) this is an immediate rematch situation. I simply feel like since it probably isn't, there might be a more attractive title situation at 145. I never said it's whats going to happen. I am talking possibilities. I don't know why THAT hasn't sunk in to YOU, Fantabulous. Oh wait, I know. Because you turn everything into the "look how much Fantabulous knows" thread and don't bother properly reading or interpreting what people say.

 

We all know how smart you think you are. You don't have to continually try to ram it down everyone's throat with the constant condescension. Stop trying to obviously cause fights and try to make an intelligent point next time, before you get THIS thread shut down too.

[Target Practice]

RE: the first Penn/Edgar, I felt it was fairly clearly Frankie's fight. The only issue I had was that it was never a 50-45 as at least one judge gave it, I remember Penn definitely got at least one round. Like couture=legend, it's been a long time since I've seen it, and perhaps the second match has slightly altered the perception of the first, but I do remember talking with a friend about the first match the day after and arguing that Edgar had won decisively.

 

Regards Frankie moving to 145, my own personal reading between the lines of what Dana's been saying (and not saying) is that Edgar can pretty much have a shot at Aldo right out the gate - I imagine he'll probably get a tune-up fight against a Gamburiyan or Leonard Garcia or similar, then go straight to Aldo. Whether he decides to go that way is probably going to be down to how much he lets his own pride overrule his common sense - as much as I mark for Edgar, after last night, I just don't see how he can beat Henderson in a rematch - he's too big, too tough and too fast for Frankie.

[CoutureLegend]

MMAJunkie has a really good article up right now with Dr. Johnny Benjamin discussing the issues of weight cutting where we makes a very interesting point of it being Henderson, & not Edgar, who is fighting in the wrong weight class.

 

http://mmajunkie.com/news/27597/ask-the-fight-doc-why-are-you-opposed-to-frankie-edgar-fighting-at-featherweight.mma

[The Shape]

To be fair, the issue of stronger guys who hit very very hard isn't going to get any easier by fighting Aldo. But aside from that Edgar would clean up the division.

[Target Practice]

MMAJunkie has a really good article up right now with Dr. Johnny Benjamin discussing the issues of weight cutting where we makes a very interesting point of it being Henderson, & not Edgar, who is fighting in the wrong weight class.

 

http://mmajunkie.com/news/27597/ask-the-fight-doc-why-are-you-opposed-to-frankie-edgar-fighting-at-featherweight.mma

 

Heh, this was actually the very thing I was arguing only a few posts back. Fully agree with it.

[damonster]

trying to get this guy some exposure, know him from another forums. http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/f/39DF6A1035228C14/Jeff-Smith/

 

maybe our resident journalist has some connections to get him a contract with BAMMA or something like that.

 

Look who made tuf 15.

[ampulator]

Heh, this was actually the very thing I was arguing only a few posts back. Fully agree with it.

Except that it's too late to go back. The only thing they can do is same day weigh-ins at this point.

 

But there's interesting nugget there. "War Obama!", the fighter doctor says... because the Doctor looks quite like Obama. Heh.

[Target Practice]

Oh yeah, same day weigh-ins were what I was suggesting. It wouldn't eradicate the problem completely of course, but it would go a long way to preventing the more ridiculous examples of weight differences between fighters on fight day.

[bigtplaystew]

I don't think we'll see same-day weigh ins. I'm not saying I disagree with them. I'm saying I don't think they'll be implemented in MMA.

 

I know UFC wouldn't want it. They've had enough controversy with weight cutting already and in order to continue putting on the fights that look good on paper, they'd have to probably shake up the weight classes and have them much closer to each other.

[Target Practice]

Problem is, a lot of the controversy with weigh-ins has been down to exactly that - fighters cutting huge amounts of weight with the intention of rehydrating back to their 'natural' size, often 1-2 weightclasses up. If you knock that on the head, fighters will have to be a lot more conservative with their weight-cutting - sure, I imagine some of the bigger cutters (Palhares, Maynard, Rumble if/when he returns) might have a hiccup or two at first, but once the new system bedded in, the playing field would be a lot fairer.

[bigtplaystew]

Like I said, I agree. I just don't think it'll happen.

[Lucien Sanchez]

Yeah I can't see same day weigh ins anytime soon. Apart from the literal logistical problems of scheduling it when a fighter should be getting his head in the right place, there's the logistics issue of having to shift entire chunks of the roster around overnight. With the history of the UFC, it's divisions, it's titles and so on, it's going to take something major for them to even entertain the thought.

 

More likely, they'll increase the punishment for missing weight without a legit reason. That way, you can try and cut as much weight as you like, but if you mess it up, it might not have been worth the effort.

 

As an aside, I haven't seen it mentioned in here, but Blagoi Ivanov is currently in intensive care after being stabbed in Bulgaria. Apparently he's in critical condition, hope he pulls through. I'll always remember waking up to, "someones beat Fedor!......in sambo".

[ampulator]

Yeah I can't see same day weigh ins anytime soon. Apart from the literal logistical problems of scheduling it when a fighter should be getting his head in the right place, there's the logistics issue of having to shift entire chunks of the roster around overnight. With the history of the UFC, it's divisions, it's titles and so on, it's going to take something major for them to even entertain the thought.

 

More likely, they'll increase the punishment for missing weight without a legit reason. That way, you can try and cut as much weight as you like, but if you mess it up, it might not have been worth the effort.

 

Technically speaking, the UFC alreay does that... with expendable fighters. And even then, if they believe in you, they won't cut you for several fights. Look at Rumble Johnson. The man was clearly not fit to be at 170. He then failed to make 185. I think he can make 185, he just has to do a less haphazard cut.

 

Look at Gleison Tibau, though. Never missed weight in the UFC, and as far as I know, never missed weight in MMA either. The guy CLEARLY can be at 170, or maybe a smaller 185er, but can still make 155. He's got smarter about the cut, too, and he's a huge 155er.

 

As an aside, I haven't seen it mentioned in here, but Blagoi Ivanov is currently in intensive care after being stabbed in Bulgaria. Apparently he's in critical condition, hope he pulls through. I'll always remember waking up to, "someones beat Fedor!......in sambo".

I wonder if it's a professional stabbing, because it was under the armpit. That's not something an untrained knife user would normally be able to do.

[brashleyholland]

The problem with same day weigh-ins is this: They won't stop fighters cutting as much weight as is humanly possible.

 

These guys are at the highest level of the sport, where the competition is so fierce that you take any and every possible route to having an advantage/edge over you're opponent. That's why people use PED's, do crazy diets and cut weight. It's also why you don't necessaries see as much (or in some cases any at all) weight cutting in grass roots/amateur MMA. That in turn is why most ammy MMA weigh ins are on the same day as the fights.

 

At the highest level though, whether you have the weigh ins on the same day, an hour before, or even as the fighters step into the cage, people will still cut - just so they can have that extra sliver of size/strength over their opponent.

 

The danger here is that cutting weight essentially sucks all the liquid out of your body - including your cerebrospinal fluid. This is the stuff that cushions your brain inside your skull - if you lose some of it, any trauma to the skull becomes much more devastating in terms of A) being knocked unconcious and B) lasting damage to the brain.

 

The solution: For me it's simple - two weigh-ins. Weigh fighters 24 hours before they fight, and again on the day of the fight. Mandate that they are only allowed to regain a certain % of their body weight between weigh-ins. This won't solve all the problems associated with cutting weight, but it will stop the majority of guys cutting as much, while giving fighters ample time to rehydrate.

[ampulator]

The problem with same day weigh-ins is this: They won't stop fighters cutting as much weight as is humanly possible.

 

These guys are at the highest level of the sport, where the competition is so fierce that you take any and every possible route to having an advantage/edge over you're opponent. That's why people use PED's, do crazy diets and cut weight. It's also why you don't necessaries see as much (or in some cases any at all) weight cutting in grass roots/amateur MMA. That in turn is why most ammy MMA weigh ins are on the same day as the fights.

 

At the highest level though, whether you have the weigh ins on the same day, an hour before, or even as the fighters step into the cage, people will still cut - just so they can have that extra sliver of size/strength over their opponent.

 

The danger here is that cutting weight essentially sucks all the liquid out of your body - including your cerebrospinal fluid. This is the stuff that cushions your brain inside your skull - if you lose some of it, any trauma to the skull becomes much more devastating in terms of A) being knocked unconcious and B) lasting damage to the brain.

 

The solution: For me it's simple - two weigh-ins. Weigh fighters 24 hours before they fight, and again on the day of the fight. Mandate that they are only allowed to regain a certain % of their body weight between weigh-ins. This won't solve all the problems associated with cutting weight, but it will stop the majority of guys cutting as much, while giving fighters ample time to rehydrate.

I agree with all of this, but this poses another difficult questions- what percentage would that be? And if they fail to make percentage, what would happen? I doubt the UFC wants to do this, either.

[Blackman]

Also agree with this. If you mandate very strict rules with devestating penalties (as in auto-forfeit), it's probably going to be unlikely fighters will cut that much. Percentage could be determined after testing the system in lower league professional MMA companies for a while to see what is most rational.

[Target Practice]

The solution: For me it's simple - two weigh-ins. Weigh fighters 24 hours before they fight, and again on the day of the fight. Mandate that they are only allowed to regain a certain % of their body weight between weigh-ins. This won't solve all the problems associated with cutting weight, but it will stop the majority of guys cutting as much, while giving fighters ample time to rehydrate.

 

This seems like the closest thing to a workable solution. In fact, wasn't this what the UFC did to Anthony Johnson in the Vitor Belfort fight? After he missed weight by that much, they obviously still had a fight to put on, so they agreed that as long as he weighed less than... I think it was 205lbs shortly before the fight, the fight would go ahead. I'll see if I can find where I read that, because I'm sure I remember it.

 

Also, perhaps the percentage could be 9-10% of the weight class limit. So if you're fighting at lightweight and weigh in at 155 the day before, as long as you're below 171 on the day of the fight, all is good. It might need a bit of tweaking when you get to the upper weight classes (20.5lb for the LHW seems a bit excessive), but it wouldn't be a bad place to start.

[bigtplaystew]

Regarding Frankie Edgar:

 

he has repeatedly said that he has no desire to go down to 145. This isn't something he only talked about post-fight. This is something he has said for a long time. I'm not sure what kind of logic you're using, but normal logic says you go with what a guy has been saying consistently over the course of time and has never wavered from.

 

 

 

Now, since he completely made that up, and I was pretty sure Edgar's been OPEN to it the past (since he's not going to talk about a 145 run when he's the 155 champ), I was going to call him out on it. But I didn't really have any solid links to post where otherwise was said. I DO know the idea that Edgar has steadfastly taken opposition to ever being in the 145 pound division in the future is simply not true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ali Abdel-Aziz (Edgar's Manager) regarding Frankie Edgar:

 

“Frankie in the future will go down to 145, but he’s not going to go down now"

 

http://www.mmaweekly.com/frankie-edgar-can-get-immediate-title-shot-but-not-likely-against-benson-henderson

 

He'll go down eventually, they want to see where the rematch is first. It's basically what everyone except Fantabulous was saying.

 

So apparently it's not just us message board fools that's talking about Frankie going down in weight. Apparently, like, his CAMP has talked about it too. And Frankie's camp feels the exact opposite of what Fantabulous obnoxiously and very assuredly claimed they felt.

[ampulator]

I think it has less to do with weight and more to do wtih the fact that they feel they lose a speed advantage, and maybe a cardio and pace advantage, if he goes down to 145.

 

I hate to say this, but I know for a fact that Ricardo Almeida, Frankie's BJJ instructor, has said that Frankie can easily make 145, probably even 135, if he wanted to do so (He said this on the Ariel Helwani's MMA Hour). It's just that most of them believe he shouldn't, considering he isn't losing big (which, to be fair, is a good point). However, considering how beat up Frankie is getting...

[jesterx7769]

Last week in his 144 pre-interview with Ariel he said he probably weighed 158-160 yet so he hadn't started his cut yet, this being 2/3 days before the fight.

 

If I'm his manager (and him) I'm causing all sorts of crap to get the 155 rematch, even though the argument isn't as solid as they make it to be. The "I gave everyone else a rematch" isn't a solid argument. BJ got the rematch because he was the only 155'er that could sell and has his UFC history. They didn't GIVE Gray a rematch, Frankie didn't beat him the first title fight time around since it was a draw, which people are seeming to leave out. It was much more of a continuation of the fight rather than Frankie being nice/forced to give Gray a rematch.

 

145 poses big problems for me from a manager and Frankie point. First, he hasn't done it before at this level so you don't know how the cut will go. He's not used to hehydrating lots then getting in there with a world class fighter like problem number 2: Jose Aldo is still a beast who is probably bigger than Frankie. So you want himt to go to 145 to escape people that are bigger than him only to fight someone thats bigger than him. Umm what? Third problem, what if Frankie loses the 145 title match? Right now 145 is Frankies career saving move, he starts to lose a few in a row he can bounce down. Do you really want to pull that card when you don't have to?

 

The big legit question is the health of course, can he keep breaking his nose and having at least one of his eyes swollen shut after each 155 fight for the next 5 years? However there is no guarantee that those things change at 145 as its how he likes to fight. Evenutally he may start to get dominated by larger 155'ers as the sport evolves but as of right now I just wouldn't go to 145 when its not a significantly greener pasture than the one he's at now. The man did just lose his second fight out of seventeen afterall and hasn't been finished.

[Lucien Sanchez]

To be honest, I think it's going to happen. A big factor being this is what the UFC want, so it's probably going to happen. Hypothetically speaking, if Dana White says that Pettis is getting the next shot, what does Edgar do? Sit out to get the next shot, for what could be the best part of eight months, risking out of sight, out of mind? Take a fight in the meantime against one of several world class lightweights and risk losing his only card (that's he's a top ranked lightweight himself)?

 

I remember having a similar discussion online with someone a while back who was adamant that Demetrious Johnson wasn't going to go to 125lbs after he lost to Cruz. His reasoning? "Mighty Mouse doesn't want to. He said it himself". Then look what happened. Those defending Edgar at 155lbs either say he said he doesn't want to (it doesn't matter really, if Dana says drop down, now he hasn't got the belt he doesn't have many options) or that he deserves a rematch (maybe he does, but like many have said, it's not clear cut and Pettis almost certainly will get it).

 

End of the day, lets not forget that he could easily flit between the divisions. Say he goes to featherweight then loses to Aldo, he could easily blame the cut and go back to 155lbs and still be in the mix. I say, if you've got a title fight on the table and you're coming off a loss, he'd be stupid not to take it if he's not getting the rematch at lightweight. Regardless of all the talk of wars and broken noses, he's got the chance to join a select club of fighters.

 

Like Dana said, they can't force him to drop down, but they can heavily persuade him.