The Official Comic Book Discussion Thread

[Killagy]

.....OH, COME ON! I just thought with Adam working on the upcoming Comic Book Hero that it'd be appropriate to start up a discussion thread centered on, well, comic books. Anything goes. DC, Marvel, other big names, and if you could please drop in some indies as well.

 

I guess I'll start off with this:

 

Hello, Miles Morales. Or should I just strictly refer to you as "The New Ultimate Spiderman"?

 

New Biracial Spider-Man Causes Controversy on the Web

 

 

Honestly, I don't really seem the least bit fazed by this. It caught me off-guard a little, but seeing that this guy only exists in the alternate "Ultimate" universe, it wasn't much of a big deal for me to be spazzing out pissed about like I notice some die-hards are at the moment. What about your takes on the matter?

[Hive]

Huh. I was certain that there were a comic thread already...

 

Anyway, Colbert's response to the black/hispanic Spidey thing is hilarious:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/393822/august-03-2011/multiracial-spider-man?xrs=playershare_twitter

 

Does anyone really care about the Ultimate universe, though? And are the people complaining actually complaining about the ethnicity of this new Spidey, or over the fact that they killed off and replaced beloved Peter Parker? There's a huge difference.

[mike b]

Huh. I was certain that there were a comic thread already...

 

LOL there is.

 

But as to this new guy.Well its a alternet universe so don't really phase me much.But you know how die hard fans can be.

 

Like when the last Star Trek movie came out some die hard's were screaming foul ball way before the movie even came out.

[Hive]

Like when the last Star Trek movie came out some die hard's were screaming foul ball way before the movie even came out.

 

I waited untill I actually saw the movie before I complained about it. Terrible, terrible decision to retcon away nearly 50 years of Star Trek history... and I doubt I'll be watching any new movies in this franchise. But that's OT...

[mike b]

Hey i liked it lol.

[Hive]

Hey i liked it lol.

 

Have you watched every single episode of TNG, DS9 and VOY like geeky me? ~8 seasons of ~22 episodes of ~45 min each times 3... only to have JJ Abrams come tell me "lolz none of that ever happened, that entire universe with all those beloved characters you have grown fond of are hereby whiped from existance!!!!"...

[mike b]

Actually yes i have. I'M a geek to in sci fi

 

Enterprise series by me was worst but its Star Trek lol there is no continuity.

 

Have you ever read the novels,Great Examples.I have read 3 diff versions of how Kirk dies lol. If Gene was still alive you can bet there would be continuity.

 

On a side note have you read the mirror image novel series by Shatner? if not you should its a must read and whoever the ghostwriter was really really new his star trek history.

[Clarity]

My view of replacing Peter Parker in the Ultimate Universe is this;

 

The Ultimate Universe has been decimated recently. Look at the list of dead characters *SPOILERS IN CASE*

 

Angel (Worthington III, Warren) - dead

Beast (McCoy, Henry "Hank") - dead

Ben Parker (dead)

Bishop - dead

Blob (real name Fred J. Dukes) - dead

Cannonball (Guthrie, Sam) - dead

Captain America (Rogers, Steve) -dead

Captain Britain (Braddock, Brian) - dead

Captain France (Etherlinck, Hugo) - dead

Captain Italy (Landi, Umberto) - dead

Captain Spain (Fraile, Carlos) - dead

Carnage - dead

Cyclops - dead

Daredevil (Murdock, Matthew "Matt") - dead

Dazzler (Blaire, Allison "Ali") - dead

Deathstrike (Oyama, Yuriko) - dead

Detonator (Gibson, Ricky) - dead

Diablo (Esteban Corazon de Ablo) - dead

Doctor Doom (Van Damme, Victor)- dead

Doctor Strange (Strange, Stephen Junior) - dead

Emma Frost - dead

Enchantress- dead

Fenris (von Strucker, Andrea and Andreas) - dead

Forge (unknown) - dead

Gambit (LeBeau, Remy) - dead

Giant Man / Ant Man / Yellowjacket (Pym, Henry "Hank") - dead

Green Goblin (Osborn, Norman) - dead

Hard-Drive (unknown) - dead

Hobgoblin (Osborn, Harry) - dead

Hurricane (unknown)- dead

John Stacy - dead

Jarvis, Edwin - dead

Jeanne de Wolfe - dead

Juggernaut (Marko, Cain) - dead

Justin Hammer - dead

Kingpin (Fisk, Wilson) - dead

Kaine - dead

Magneto (Lensherr, Erik)- dead

Multiple Man (Madrox, James) - dead

Nightcrawler (Wagner, Kurt)- dead

Nihil - dead

Malachi "The Jellyfish" Kelly - dead

Polaris (Dane, Lorna)(dead)

Proteus (Xavier, David) (dead)

Quicksilver (Lensherr, Pietro) -Dead- Now currently alive.

Red Skull - dead

Scorpion (clone of Peter Parker)(Real name is Mac Gargan) - dead

Sebastian Shaw - dead

Tarantula-dead

Unus (unknown) - dead

Wolverine (Howlett, James "Logan") - dead

Professor X (Xavier, Charles) - dead

Yellowjacket (Ultron) - dead

 

And after all of that, they have then killed off Peter Parker and replaced him with Miles Morales.. To be honest.. who cares. The Ultimate universe is now so far away from 616 that i cant see that it now matters anymore.

[mike b]

DUDE:eek:

 

Why are so many of the name characters dead. I mean i know this is a alternet story and all that,but...but.

 

Are they planning on replacing every single one of those with a new person taking on the role or what cause this is just messed up.

[Hive]

Actually yes i have. I'M a geek to in sci fi

 

Enterprise series by me was worst but its Star Trek lol there is no continuity.

 

Have you ever read the novels,Great Examples.I have read 3 diff versions of how Kirk dies lol. If Gene was still alive you can bet there would be continuity.

 

On a side note have you read the mirror image novel series by Shatner? if not you should its a must read and whoever the ghostwriter was really really new his star trek history.

 

No I haven't read any novels, nor have I seen the Enterprise show... so I'm just a sub-geek compared to you.

[Clarity]

Ultimatum.. Thats why

 

*Spoilers* by Wikipedia

The series, which was written by Jeph Loeb and illustrated by David Finch, tied in with all other Ultimate titles, and dealt with Magneto's attempts to destroy the world following the apparent deaths of the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver in Ultimates 3

 

A lot of characters were killed in Magnetos flood. Others killed when Jamie Madrox turned into 10's of 1000s of suicide bombers. Madrox was killed by Wolverine. Wolverine was killed by Magneto. Magneto killed Xavier, Cyclops killed Magneto. Cyclops was unceremoniously assassinated at the end. Angel was eaten by Sabretooth

 

After the "Ultimatum" storyline, nearly all of the X-Men were killed, and the team disbanded. Mutations were announced as genetic manipulations and not a natural occurance

[mike b]

No I haven't read any novels, nor have I seen the Enterprise show... so I'm just a sub-geek compared to you.

 

Lol i am at a loss for words lol

 

Another must read is the history of the Star Trek universe. Did you know that the Vulcan's were actually the 2ed race Humans encountered. The 1st were from Alpha Centuri.

 

That to was changed in the 1st contact movie.

 

Sheese i guess i am a geek lol

[bigtplaystew]

Re-reading Rising Stars. It's an excellent read. Came out about 10 years ago. Lots of things since then have definately used it as an influence I think.

[tjb000]

As I said in the previous comic book thread, I'm somewhat new to comic books but I've soaked up so much information (especially as of late) that I feel like I know about them quite well.

 

Two weeks ago I got Captain America #1, X-Men: Schism #1 and #2. This week I ordered Captain America #2, X-Men: Schism #3, Daredevil #1 and #2 and the Amazing Spider-Man #666 and #667. I'll probably receive them next wednesday since 3 of them aren't released until next wednesday. Add those to my Walking Dead Book 1 and my collection is finally getting underway.

 

As for Miles Morales, I'm very interested in seeing what Brian Michael Bendis can deliver. I'm not sure if it's the race of Miles Morales/Spider-Man that's causing controversy or the fact that Peter Parker was killed off. Bold move. I can easily accept a black/hispanic mixed Spider-Man but I have yet to see how good the character is. I've heard many good things about Brian Michael Bendis, but I haven't read any of his work, YET. I've been wanting to get the Ultimate Spider-Man collection, but collecting all the trade paperbacks could be costly.

 

As for the rest of the Ultimate Universe, not sure I'm all that interested, as most of my focus has been on the original Marvel Universe. Makes me sad though when people claim the Ultimate Universe "doesn't matter". I just see it as place where different creative writers have a place where they can tell THEIR stories without worrying about all the continuity of the Marvel Universe. I'm going to keep an eye on the Ultimate X-Men as well since I'm an X-Men fan. Not sure if my opinion means much since I haven't even read anything form the Ultimate Universe yet, but I just thought I'd share.

[Arrows]

The fact that they killed off a great character just so they could kiss as$ and be politically correct says plenty about how idiotic this entire thing is. I have no problem with a new spidey, but every time I see someone think it's a good idea because it's politically correct and "Gives them something", I wanna shove em in front of a train.

[bigtplaystew]

The fact that they killed off a great character just so they could kiss as$ and be politically correct says plenty about how idiotic this entire thing is. I have no problem with a new spidey, but every time I see someone think it's a good idea because it's politically correct and "Gives them something", I wanna shove em in front of a train.

 

I actually agree with this post 100%

[cappyboy]

The fact that they killed off a great character just so they could kiss as$ and be politically correct says plenty about how idiotic this entire thing is. I have no problem with a new spidey, but every time I see someone think it's a good idea because it's politically correct and "Gives them something", I wanna shove em in front of a train.

 

Yeah because when junk like this happens, it seemingly has to involve a beloved franchise. They can't take a guy like Luke Cage and make him more meaningful to expand diversity. They can't elevate a guy like Cyborg who's been a known commodity for 25 years between the later Superfriends era and Teen Titans to lead character status.

 

Maybe salvage like a Black Vulcan or El Dorado and make him more impressive than he was on the small screen. I hated Hawkman for years because all I knew of him was the horribly watered-down, borderline useless Superfriends version of him. How shocked I was that he could actually be cool when I finally got his Showcase collections and saw how much more there was to him in the 60's. How much more empowering and how much better it would be for diversity if a former one-note also-ran could have a new legacy of actually being cool crafted for him. But no, it's "let's mess with this established franchise to make a politically correct statement."

[lazorbeak]

Yes, who could forget that iconic character that has entertained us all for 11 long years. Seriously this is happening in the ULTIMATE universe. A universe absolutely nobody has cared about outside of Ultimate Spidey fans for about 5 years. This talk about "elevating" a character has nothing to do with a single storyline in a nearly self-contained alternate version of the title.

 

And I don't even read Flashpoint but Cyborg has been elevated in that, based on what little I've seen. Luke Cage went from "Sweet Christmas" yellow silk shirt guy to the leader of an Avengers team and a devoted father. So these things that "can't" happen have either already happened or are in the process of happening. But they don't get the same mainstream press, so casual comics fans may not even be aware of it.

[Hive]

Seriously this is happening in the ULTIMATE universe. A universe absolutely nobody has cared about outside of Ultimate Spidey fans for about 5 years.

 

Aye. And hasn't the Ultimate Universe kinda always been about catering to political correctness and trying out new stuff? Didn't they make more characters, most prominently Collossus, homosexual as well?

 

Oh, and also: didn't they already do something like this? Was Spider-Man 2099 not hispanic as well?

 

I just hope all this political correctness doesn't translate into the mainsteam universe and the movies. I'd hate to see a black Spider-Man in movies just as much as I'd hate to see a white Luke Cage. But of course, while the former would be applauded by the PC crowd; the latter would be shunned and be called "racist", so that won't happen.

[cappyboy]

Yes, who could forget that iconic character that has entertained us all for 11 long years. Seriously this is happening in the ULTIMATE universe. A universe absolutely nobody has cared about outside of Ultimate Spidey fans for about 5 years. This talk about "elevating" a character has nothing to do with a single storyline in a nearly self-contained alternate version of the title.

 

And I don't even read Flashpoint but Cyborg has been elevated in that, based on what little I've seen. Luke Cage went from "Sweet Christmas" yellow silk shirt guy to the leader of an Avengers team and a devoted father. So these things that "can't" happen have either already happened or are in the process of happening. But they don't get the same mainstream press, so casual comics fans may not even be aware of it.

 

But if it isn't happening where it can be seen, is it really all that meaningful?Posts like this reminds me of that admonition I always heard at my Christian high school about not hiding your light under a bushel. Not quite the same thing as the light they were referring to in the church setting was one's Christian faith. But if all these meaningful things that folks would applaud are happening, then get the word out and make yourself more relevant. Don't be ashamed of the fact and stick to preaching to the choir. Spread the gospel to every creature if you will.

 

I hear all the talk publishing's a dying art because of the Internet and e-readers and the like. And while there's undoubtedly some truth in that, it needn't be as much so in comicdom if they'd get over the the gentrified, gated community think that appears to have taken over. It's almost like they don't WANT to be relevant and accessible because that they feel that would mean watering down their "dazzling art work" and "graphic novel" pretensions. And if the Internet and the e-readers overwhelm them because of said puffery? Oh well. March of time and all that.

 

The baseball card scene did the same thing. They got too pretentious for their own good as well. With the glossy sets and the special editions with the cut up memorbilia embedded in them. Junk like that. And look where they are now. Nobody but the diehard elite care about them to any meaningful degree either.

 

Both have forgotten that they got to be institutions by being diversions the young could throw their allowances at and feel like they had a piece of the action. By being cheap escapism for the masses and letting the high and mighty comic geekbait tend to itself. The way I see it, I shouldn't hear any more of people like Grant Morrison and Bryan Michael Bendis than I do of the second string catcher for the Portland Sea Dogs down here in VA Beach. It should be characters I hear about. It shouldn't be Alan Moore's name I recognize. It should be the members of the Watchmen. Yet I don't know I could decisively pull any of their names up out of my memory as I type this.

 

Not that the Morrisons and Bendises and Moores do bad work or anything. But they are useless trivia compared to the battles between Green Lantern and Sinestro or Hawkgirl's attempts to keep Mavis Trent from sniffing around her husband all the time. Spidey's romance with Mary Jane. It's how cool the characters are (Yes, including how they look.) and the relationships they have with one other that count. Sure, the people who create them are nice to know about. But I don't need to know them any more than I need to know the names of the artists who drew the Powerpuff Girls to enjoy their cartoons.

[brashleyholland]

 

I just hope all this political correctness doesn't translate into the mainsteam universe and the movies. I'd hate to see a black Spider-Man in movies just as much as I'd hate to see a white Luke Cage. But of course, while the former would be applauded by the PC crowd; the latter would be shunned and be called "racist", so that won't happen.

 

Am I the only person that finds the idea of a middle-class, suburban white boy acting 'ghetto' Luke Cage hilarious?

 

"Whazzup dawg, nah, I ain't fightin' no crime as Powerman tonight G...crashed my pop's Lexus on the way back from Lacrosse practise, now I'm grounded yo! Man's always keepin' me down!"

[lazorbeak]

But if it isn't happening where it can be seen, is it really all that meaningful?Posts like this reminds me of that admonition I always heard at my Christian high school about not hiding your light under a bushel. Not quite the same thing as the light they were referring to in the church setting was one's Christian faith. But if all these meaningful things that folks would applaud are happening, then get the word out and make yourself more relevant. Don't be ashamed of the fact and stick to preaching to the choir. Spread the gospel to every creature if you will.

 

But it is happening where comic book fans see it. It's a dying industry though. Flashpoint is DC's flagship as they transition over into their relaunch. They literally could not push it more than they are right now. Luke Cage has gone from featured member to leader of the New Avengers, a book that is consistently in the top 10-20 every month and has been for about seven years. The only reason the casual fan doesn't know about it is they haven't been turned into a movie or cartoon. Like I said, it makes your points sound absurd when they obviously are and have been doing what you're talking about, it just doesn't get nearly the same attention as calling a minority character "Spider-Man."

 

I hear all the talk publishing's a dying art because of the Internet and e-readers and the like. And while there's undoubtedly some truth in that, it needn't be as much so in comicdom if they'd get over the the gentrified, gated community think that appears to have taken over. It's almost like they don't WANT to be relevant and accessible because that they feel that would mean watering down their "dazzling art work" and "graphic novel" pretensions. And if the Internet and the e-readers overwhelm them because of said puffery? Oh well. March of time and all that.

 

Oh right, you're the guy that "doesn't care" about artists. Watering down their dazzling art-work? What are you going on about? Graphic novel pretensions? Are you living in some alternate dimension where comic books are seen as valuable, intelligent material? The death of traditional comic publishing has absolutely zilch to do with any of the things you're saying, and everything to do with changes in the publishing and related industries in the past 15 years. It's like blaming the decline of encyclopedias on their insistence on fancy book-binding.

 

 

Both have forgotten that they got to be institutions by being diversions the young could throw their allowances at and feel like they had a piece of the action. By being cheap escapism for the masses and letting the high and mighty comic geekbait tend to itself. The way I see it, I shouldn't hear any more of people like Grant Morrison and Bryan Michael Bendis than I do of the second string catcher for the Portland Sea Dogs down here in VA Beach. It should be characters I hear about. It shouldn't be Alan Moore's name I recognize. It should be the members of the Watchmen. Yet I don't know I could decisively pull any of their names up out of my memory as I type this.

 

Maybe you just have an awful, awful memory? Watchmen's characters were incredibly memorable. And even when comics were relevant, it's not like Stan Lee was this mysterious recluse that nobody ever heard from. Just not a strong comparison.

 

Not that the Morrisons and Bendises and Moores do bad work or anything. But they are useless trivia compared to the battles between Green Lantern and Sinestro or Hawkgirl's attempts to keep Mavis Trent from sniffing around her husband all the time. Spidey's romance with Mary Jane. It's how cool the characters are (Yes, including how they look.) and the relationships they have with one other that count. Sure, the people who create them are nice to know about. But I don't need to know them any more than I need to know the names of the artists who drew the Powerpuff Girls to enjoy their cartoons.

 

Characters are still what sells comics though. It's just that comics are such a small industry that the characters that sell are those that are featured in videogames, cartoons, movies, and other media that didn't become irrelevant in the mid 1990's.

 

I mean why on earth would a kid today spend $3 on a 20-some page comic, when that same $3 could buy them some game on their cell phone? Assuming the kid even knows where to find a comic, since they're not sold in grocery stores or pharmacies anymore, Borders is gone, etc. I mean when I started reading comics it was months before I ever went to a "comic book store." I just read what interested me when my parents were shopping. But in the ensuing two decades (ugh I'm so old), that's just not possible any more. There is no comic rack at the corner store. And the prices have tripled even as the industry shrank.

[mike b]

Phhht lazor Beak 2 decades.Come on your still young and full of fun.

 

I remember when i was growing up there were NO comic book stores were i lived but comics were everywhere.

 

The main super market had a book stand as you walked in the store devoted to nothing but all the comics from D/C and Marvel.

 

And all the snack shops that catered to mostly kids with there candy and stuff all had comic book racks. And if you had 5 dollars on you you could walk out with at least 8 or 9 comics (50 cents a title).

 

Aww how things have changed.

[cappyboy]

But it is happening where comic book fans see it. It's a dying industry though. Flashpoint is DC's flagship as they transition over into their relaunch. They literally could not push it more than they are right now. Luke Cage has gone from featured member to leader of the New Avengers, a book that is consistently in the top 10-20 every month and has been for about seven years. The only reason the casual fan doesn't know about it is they haven't been turned into a movie or cartoon. Like I said, it makes your points sound absurd when they obviously are and have been doing what you're talking about, it just doesn't get nearly the same attention as calling a minority character "Spider-Man."

 

Okay. You know what, dude? I'm going to stand down here. I'm not going to engage you directly. Not because anybody's right here or anybody's wrong. But I can see it will get nowhere. You're too firmly entrenched on your side. I'm too firmly entrenched on mine. And neither of us is able to say anything that makes the other want to ease up enough to make dialogue constructive.

 

I'll give you this much though. I may well be an under-informed curmudgeon who's totally fueled by misguided perceptions. I'm willing to stand 100% behind that possibility. That possibility's not new to me. Truth be told, there have been times I was just that. So don't let anybody suggest I'm putting those words in your mouth. I'm putting them in my own because they may be true.

 

But keep in mind, I've come at stuff from odd directions all my life. You're not the first person to be as baffled by my thought process as your last post shows you to be. Nor will you be the last. We're just not the right two people to be taking this side of the discussion up with each other and that's okay. It's annoying but it happens.

[lazorbeak]

I can respect that, but I just thought it was funny that two of your two specific examples are either in the midst of a major event comic that is the most important thing DC is putting out this summer, and another guy who has consistently been a major part of the biggest franchise at Marvel (since Avengers passed up X-Men a few years back when Wolverine and Spidey joined). Seriously, what more could the industry do for this sub-issue short of blaring it from the heavens? But it gets zero press because the only time comics ever get mainstream press any more is when a character is killed. Even if it's a character as completely irrelevant as Ultimate Spider-Man. Another character you didn't mention has been majorly pushed in the past 15 years, too. Black Panther has an on-going now and has had about 4 series in the past 12 years or so, temporarily joined the Fantastic Four while Reed took a break, married Storm of the X-Men, and otherwise became a major part of the Marvel Universe for the first time since the Lee/Kirby era. Shockingly enough, it doesn't grab a lot of headlines, since most people only know Black Panther as the political party that was founded shortly after the comic character was created. Because his only media appearances are as an unlockable guy in Ultimate Alliance, a direct to dvd animated sequel, and a horrible BET stop-motion animation thing.

 

I can understand not wanting to argue, so that's fine. But that thing you said first:

 

Yeah because when junk like this happens, it seemingly has to involve a beloved franchise. They can't take a guy like Luke Cage and make him more meaningful to expand diversity. They can't elevate a guy like Cyborg who's been a known commodity for 25 years between the later Superfriends era and Teen Titans to lead character status.

 

Is completely the opposite of true.