[RELEASE] Risky Business (Jan 1985)

[alvarasus]

I know this is always a question from non-southerners. You have to realize exactly what CWA was doing in the early 80's. They didn't use chairs a ton like ECW did, but they did everything else. Crazy brawls all over the arena using whatever they could get their hands on, check. Fireballs right in people's faces, check. Gruesome "injuries", check. See the Lawler getting posted that got reported that it blew a nut (this is 1987), and the Terry Funk-Lawler empty arena fight is a must watch on YT when Funk supposedly stabbed himself in the eye. Hell, I remember the clip of Lawler's neck surgery. Not to mention CWF ran a long "Kevin Sullivan is the devil complete with summoning a demon" storyline, and I think the whole Bible Belt couldn't handle ECW is a silly argument to southerners. Everything I've seen from the old WWWF (through the Hogan era WWF) comes off as way tamer than what I could see every week with the CWA, and that was on a network TV station, not cable.

 

Needless to say, I was not shocked and amazed at ECW when I happened to stumble upon it on TNN.

I agree with you. ECW just brought Memphis wrestling out of the South. Pretty much in the 60's wrestling was in decline. So alot of wrestlers began to bleed alot it want helped bring fans back to wrestling in the 70's to set-up the Golden Age of wrestling in the 80's. Fans began to be turned off in the early 90's because of the cartoon wrestling. ECW became an alternative to WWF and WCW plus being located in Philadelphia helped. Because the Apter mags was in New Jersey. So they were given a lot of exposure.

[Mattywood]

I know this is always a question from non-southerners. You have to realize exactly what CWA was doing in the early 80's. They didn't use chairs a ton like ECW did, but they did everything else. Crazy brawls all over the arena using whatever they could get their hands on, check. Fireballs right in people's faces, check. Gruesome "injuries", check. See the Lawler getting posted that got reported that it blew a nut (this is 1987), and the Terry Funk-Lawler empty arena fight is a must watch on YT when Funk supposedly stabbed himself in the eye. Hell, I remember the clip of Lawler's neck surgery. Not to mention CWF ran a long "Kevin Sullivan is the devil complete with summoning a demon" storyline, and I think the whole Bible Belt couldn't handle ECW is a silly argument to southerners. Everything I've seen from the old WWWF (through the Hogan era WWF) comes off as way tamer than what I could see every week with the CWA, and that was on a network TV station, not cable.

 

Needless to say, I was not shocked and amazed at ECW when I happened to stumble upon it on TNN.

 

I was actually referring more to the more adult oriented content ECW was known for rather than what Memphis was known for. And I'm hoping you weren't implying that I was a non-Southerner seeing as that I've lived in Texas my whole life (as if my Von Erich markdom didn't make it obvious)

 

Back on topic, the next update should be out tomorrow or the next day.

[franticloser]

Just noticed, but it doesn't seem you have the AWA Farm set up as a training camp. So, many guys where trained there to name a couple, The Iron Sheik and Ric Flair. Also shouldn't Dean and Joe be alumni of Malenko's Gym?

[Mattywood]

Just noticed, but it doesn't seem you have the AWA Farm set up as a training camp. So, many guys where trained there to name a couple, The Iron Sheik and Ric Flair. Also shouldn't Dean and Joe be alumni of Malenko's Gym?

 

Good catch on both of those. I'll get those fixed for the next update.

 

Also, it looks like I'm going to have to do what Fleisch did for TNA in his Real World Chronicles and give the WWF $10 million to start with instead of $5 million, and maybe lower Vince's spending to Average as the WWF seems to close up shop in 1988 every time when run by the AI.

[justtxyank]

The only thing ECW did that was "edgy" was the women. Lesbians fondling each other in lingerie, women wrestling in thongs, jokes about blowjobs, etc. The sex was ratcheted up. In TEW terms, the "risque" aspect.

 

In terms of Hardcore, Memphis was at times crazier than ECW.

 

Of note though, Memphis from the 80s on is very bi-polar. Jerry Lawler and Jerry Jarrett would alternate with the book with Jarrett taking six months off a year. The booking is starkly different. Jarrett believes in logical storylines while Lawler loved his "monsters." I don't big guys, I mean actual monster characters.

[Mattywood]

The only thing ECW did that was "edgy" was the women. Lesbians fondling each other in lingerie, women wrestling in thongs, jokes about blowjobs, etc. The sex was ratcheted up. In TEW terms, the "risque" aspect.

 

In terms of Hardcore, Memphis was at times crazier than ECW.

 

Of note though, Memphis from the 80s on is very bi-polar. Jerry Lawler and Jerry Jarrett would alternate with the book with Jarrett taking six months off a year. The booking is starkly different. Jarrett believes in logical storylines while Lawler loved his "monsters." I don't big guys, I mean actual monster characters.

 

I'm trying to forget about those Freddy Krueger and Jason Vorhees characters.

 

BTW, justtxyank, you have some more experience on mod making than me, so what on earth do I have to do to have different scenarios play out rather than the same one every game save? In tests Oyaji has done, JCP closes up shop either before or after the WWF (trying to remember when), and the WWF closes up shop in 1988, and the AWA comes out as #1. I made a lengthy post about it in Tech Support because now I'm wondering if there's a bug causing this as when I fired up a game to play as the WWF, I noticed that the catering option was already ticked. Didn't it used to be unticked from the start? So I have to wonder if the AI companies are bleeding money from providing catering. I know when I was running a watcher test, I went all the way up to April 1986. The WWF started with $10 million. I went into the in-game editor, clicked on World Wrestling Federation, and saw that they were already down to below $7 million.

[DanMTheMan]

Random thought....how's the contract situation in the WWF during those tests?

Using version 1.0 of the mod, I've lost 79k, 247k, and 111k thus far in my save. After resigning a few contracts from PPA-to-Written....firing a majority of the PPA contracts I didn't care for...and hiring around 10-15? new wrestlers to fill holes made by JCP, roster is down to 48 active wrestlers from the initial 69 and I have the same amount of Out-of-Ring contracted workers as when I begun.

[Mattywood]

Random thought....how's the contract situation in the WWF during those tests?

Using version 1.0 of the mod, I've lost 79k, 247k, and 111k thus far in my save. After resigning a few contracts from PPA-to-Written....firing a majority of the PPA contracts I didn't care for...and hiring around 10-15? new wrestlers to fill holes made by JCP, roster is down to 48 active wrestlers from the initial 69 and I have the same amount of Out-of-Ring contracted workers as when I begun.

 

I've switched the vast majority of them to Written, with only a handful of guys (jobbers and those who have deals elsewhere) on PPA. jhd1 over in Tech Support suggested maybe bumping the WWF's pop in areas where their pop is lower, so I may go that route. I know it'll seem odd to see the WWF having decent attendance in Atlanta, the Carolinas or Dallas in the mid 1980s, but if that, coupled with Oyaji's suggestion of trimming the roster down, is what it takes to have some variable outcomes and make the mod more balanced with the TEW mechanics, then that's what I'll do.

[justtxyank]

I'm looking at it now.

[Ping von Erich]

Can someone cut this old picture of Owen for me?

 

http://i.imgur.com/SpBrb4W.jpg

[jhd1]

Try removing around 10 of the really minor jobbers (Ron Hutchinson etc). On the basis Mr X autopushes as a referee, you can probably remove him as well.

 

I'd also try something like D+/C- across the lower areas of the US and perhaps B-/C+ in their bigger areas and run another watcher. It will keep them at Cult, but it'll mean a bigger gate. That might counteract their bigger roster (albeit reduced slightly from its current size).

 

I can understand wanting to mimic real-life closely, but (personally) I think you need the mod to behave properly as a universe rather than on the individual details. So Wrestlemania might not be a pay-per-view in 1985, and they might have too many fans in a the Mid-South, but overall it's better that than the WWF going bust in 1988. It's unfortunate, but as I think I mentioned somewhere, the game doesn't play as a 1980s simulator so some compromise is necessary.

 

EDIT: Looks like the massive roster is impacting on the booking as well. You've got George Scott as an excellent booker, but he's main eventing the TV show with Tony Atlas and Ken Patera, so they are not growing fast enough for that reason too.

[justtxyank]

Issue #1 seems to be the high rate of money being spent on contracts vs the lack of ability run house shows.

 

The game requires 10 written contracts for active workers to run a house show. The finances are difficult to deal with at this time.

 

I would suggest tweaking down the contract values by pre-setting them in the editor and giving the WWF enough written contracts to run house shows.

 

Bruno Sammartino is making 15k plus a month to be a commentator, Monsoon same range.

 

You are spending 100k a month for your top 5 workers and one of them is an announcer. That may seem like it's realistic, but keep in mind that the way the data is setup you are only getting revenue from two tv shows and a big event a month. You are paying Hulk Hogan 20k to work two shows.

 

So...

 

1) Preset some contract values

2) Set them lower than relative popularity for Bruno, Gorilla, Mr. T, and Cyndi Lauper. Honestly I'd probably put the latter three on exclusive PPA deals, with Gorilla having loyalty to the WWF and set the downside to 0 with a low PPA number for T and Cyndi.

3) Consider more written contracts for workers to get the house shows running.

[justtxyank]

Try removing around 10 of the really minor jobbers (Ron Hutchinson etc). On the basis Mr X autopushes as a referee, you can probably remove him as well.

 

I'd also try something like D+/C- across the lower areas of the US and perhaps B-/C+ in their bigger areas and run another watcher. It will keep them at Cult, but it'll mean a bigger gate. That might counteract their bigger roster (albeit reduced slightly from its current size).

 

I can understand wanting to mimic real-life closely, but (personally) I think you need the mod to behave properly as a universe rather than on the individual details. So Wrestlemania might not be a pay-per-view in 1985, and they might have too many fans in a the Mid-South, but overall it's better that than the WWF going bust in 1988. It's unfortunate, but as I think I mentioned somewhere, the game doesn't play as a 1980s simulator so some compromise is necessary.

 

EDIT: Looks like the massive roster is impacting on the booking as well. You've got George Scott as an excellent booker, but he's main eventing the TV show with Tony Atlas and Ken Patera, so they are not growing fast enough for that reason too.

 

I don't agree with this. If you artificially pumping up the WWF's popularity, you are just ensuring that the reality of them being bigger than the other promotions true. You are picking one outcome over the other.

 

I think you can accomplish what you want (prolonging the WWF, correcting their finances) without messing with their popularity. That to me will make it TOO easy for the player.

 

The real issue is that companies are not getting house show revenues like they were in the 80s because of the simulation engine's restrictions.

[Oyaji]

Thanks so much for the awesome suggestions, justtxyank! Hopefully with those additions to both the WWF and Crockett, we can get some real variance in the outcomes of long-term games!

[justtxyank]

Also, downsides should be 0 for a lot of the ppa contracts. This goes against game mechanics, but in the 80s for a lot of these guys they were only paid if they worked. Particularly with Crockett who was notorious for cheap. But all the companies in the United States were tightwads in the 80s.

 

That's one of the things people actually complemented Herb Abrams for. He was a crazy drug addict, but he paid his workers.

[Mattywood]

Also, downsides should be 0 for a lot of the ppa contracts. This goes against game mechanics, but in the 80s for a lot of these guys they were only paid if they worked. Particularly with Crockett who was notorious for cheap. But all the companies in the United States were tightwads in the 80s.

 

That's one of the things people actually complemented Herb Abrams for. He was a crazy drug addict, but he paid his workers.

 

Are you talking about in all the companies, or just JCP and the WWF since they were the ones bleeding money?

[justtxyank]

Are you talking about in all the companies, or just JCP and the WWF since they were the ones bleeding money?

 

Well ideally for all the companies. It's hard because you can't make these companies run shows the way they were in the 80s. Very few promotions ran 1 show a week or 2 shows a week. Most promotions were running as often as possible to turn a profit and the only way they paid you is if you worked the show.

 

I think a good way to combat that in terms of game mechanics is to take away the downsides for a lot of workers. It won't matter for all of them, but some of these workers are not going to get booked enough to justify the downside.

 

To reinforce my point, this reality is why guys used to work for as many promotions as possible, even when they were hurt and wore their bodies out. They need someone to give them money.

 

Edit: But I don't think you need to go through and edit every contract in every company. If it's working fine for the others, no reason to mess with them as the game will add them back as soon as they sign new deals anyway.

[justtxyank]

That's also a lot of hypothetical. I'm running some testing now for you.

 

Oyaji, can you make some changes along those lines and do some testing? I can't get 3 years in as quickly as you.

[jhd1]

I think you can accomplish what you want (prolonging the WWF, correcting their finances) without messing with their popularity. That to me will make it TOO easy for the player.

 

The player can already get around all of these problems, its the AI that's having the issue. So it's not so much a case of making it easier for the player, but making sure the AI can work with the tools it has been given.

 

The house shows is a good point, and may well be the answer to the problem. However, I don't think setting downsides to 0 is more than a temporary fix as workers will demand a downside as soon as the contract renewal goes through so it'll jump back up again anyway.

 

Also, setting Gorilla's loyalty to the WWF won't do anything with Loyalty turned off in the US (as it should be). If you wanted to simulate Gorilla's loyalty to the company, the best way to do it would be to set the loyalty to Vince.

[Mattywood]

@justtxyank, what about workers' pops (at least in the WWF and JCP)? Should I lower some of their highest pops to be more in line with the highest pops in those companies' best regions? For example, instead of Hogan, Piper and Andre having 75 or 80 pop in Tri State, New England and South West in the US, they would have maybe 65 to 70? Just trying to figure out this balancing act.

[Oyaji]

That's also a lot of hypothetical. I'm running some testing now for you.

 

Oyaji, can you make some changes along those lines and do some testing? I can't get 3 years in as quickly as you.

 

Yep. We can get the downsides to 0 for JCP and WWF at least for now and get enough written contracts to run house shows and then I can run tests. I'll hold off on this until decisions are made on worker popularity.

[justtxyank]

TV contracts are another thing to potentially mess with.

 

JCP should have a lot of the production costs absorbed by TBS and the WWF should have good revenue deals. These are medium syndication networks.

[justtxyank]

Ok, so quick test. I put the WWF tv contracts at 70% revenue to the network and I put JCP's NWA/WCW at 50% costs.

 

I gave the WWF enough written contracts to run house shows and made no further changes.

 

Both companies are now turning a profit. I'm only 2 months in though. Oyaji, if you get a chance, make those changes and see what sort of results you get if you can? TV revenue and house shows are going to be the biggest difference makers and I don't think either is "cheating" or "artificially" messing with the game.

 

World Championship Wrestling on TBS was the best TV contract in the business. That's why Vince wanted it and it's why Crockett wanted it.

[Oyaji]

Ok, so quick test. I put the WWF tv contracts at 70% revenue to the network and I put JCP's NWA/WCW at 50% costs.

 

I gave the WWF enough written contracts to run house shows and made no further changes.

 

Both companies are now turning a profit. I'm only 2 months in though. Oyaji, if you get a chance, make those changes and see what sort of results you get if you can? TV revenue and house shows are going to be the biggest difference makers and I don't think either is "cheating" or "artificially" messing with the game.

 

World Championship Wrestling on TBS was the best TV contract in the business. That's why Vince wanted it and it's why Crockett wanted it.

I've made those TV contract changes. The latest data Matt had me testing had most of the WWF stars locked up to written contracts. I will post what I find.

[justtxyank]

I think that will be a huge help. I've got to go, but my test is into November and both companies are still in the greed despite a few months where they lost money.

 

It's a temporary fix of course because when they have to negotiate a new deal they'll lose those perks, but that should buy them some time to grow.