TEW2020 Discussion Thread

[shawn michaels]

It’s not too difficult.

 

The game isn’t complicated and most things are visually represented totne player. Every now and then I come across a very minor discovery buy I haven’t learned anything particularly interesting about TEWs engine in a long while.

 

And no I wouldn’t say that the people who didn’t know about how stats work is the minority. It’s obvious most people don’t pay attention.

 

I'm not saying it's rocket science either, but there are certain things one can only guess. When it comes to matches, for example, one is never really sure of the exact numbers of penalties and bonuses and whatnot being given to the decimal point. So there are calculations one can only guess. I don't think anyone (well, the majority) has ever realized that those two stats were pretty much cosmetic at best. If this was the case, most mod makers would have saved a lot of time for themselves.

 

As for the FOW, I can definitely see why a lot of people would support it back. Those who don't like math simulation (so to speak) as the main core of the game, and want some difficulty added, are probably more than a vocal minority, if you search all the debates of where this game is talked about, not limited to these boards only.

 

Speaking for myself, the FOW thing is not really deal breaking to me. There would be worse things that would turn the focus to the math part, imo. But that's me. I can see how a lot of people think otherwise. For the technical stats part, I don't mind a bit of simplification of stats, even though we all know more nuance brings more possibilities, but it also has its drawbacks.

 

I think what bothers most people is that they realized something they thought they had, but in practice never really did, was taken away from them. Such revelations won't always sit well with everyone. This merely from a psychological standpoint.

[TeemuFoundation]

I don't think anyone has ever realized that those two stats were pretty much cosmetic at best.

I did? I'm convinced it's been explained at some point. The reason it hasn't saved me time as a mod maker, however, is OCD.

[shawn michaels]

I did? I'm convinced it's been explained at some point. The reason it hasn't saved me time as a mod maker, however, is OCD.

 

Well, i can't state literally anyone, or literally the opposite, obviously. Take my statement as the majority, by what has been talked about it, not literally anyone.

[franticloser]

I've stayed out of the discussion, as I don't want to get involved in the huge debates. So, I'll say that I will miss FOW as even playing historical mods, there are workers you never heard of, or didn't know much about in them, and with the new variance options the world can become vastly different each play through. But I can't see I'll be hugely upset if Adam can't find a way to put it back in.

 

As for the streamlining of the tech skill, can't say it matters much, and if it makes modding easier then isn't that a good thing?

 

Love the title sharing and hop[e it can also be used for working agreements, or maybe a check box, for indie titles that you are willing to let be defended in other promotions.

[shawn michaels]

I've stayed out of the discussion, as I don't want to get involved in the huge debates. So, I'll say that I will miss FOW as even playing historical mods, there are workers you never heard of, or didn't know much about in them, and with the new variance options the world can become vastly different each play through. But I can't see I'll be hugely upset if Adam can't find a way to put it back in.

 

As for the streamlining of the tech skill, can't say it matters much, and if it makes modding easier then isn't that a good thing?

 

Love the title sharing and hop[e it can also be used for working agreements, or maybe a check box, for indie titles that you are willing to let be defended in other promotions.

 

One of the most underrated features so far, in part thanks to the discussion of other features, but that's part of opinions. I do love the possibilities though. If it included working agreements and other outside possibilities, man that would be awesome. I'm hoping it will at least, hopefully, be incorporated into alliances, which in itself would already be a step in a great direction.

[Sharkn20]

I've been following the journal on an almost daily basis and my excitement for the game was through the roof... until this week. What a disaster.

 

That, however, is nothing compared to the loss of Fog of War. I have actually been hoping this game would have a way to limit how much we know about wrestlers, instead it just gives us everything about everyone all at once. It is just so unrealistic that a booker would know everything about every wrestler in the world. The game needs to be harder, not easier, and removing FOW removes any semblance of challenge from the game. We should be relying somewhat on our own judgement of workers and trying to figure out just how good or bad they are through their work, not seeing every little thing about them down to a percentage point. I couldn't even rate my own ability at anything down to a percentage point, let alone that of all my peers.

 

Sorry if this has been a bit of a rant, but it really is deal-breaking for me. I don't want to play a maths game, I want to play a wrestling sim.

 

+1 here.

[TLCJR4LIFE]

+1 here.

 

 

If you ever thought fog of war added any challenge to the game you probably were playing either so suboptimal it doesn’t make a difference whether you do or you don’t, or you play with so many crutches it also doesn’t matter whether you do or you don’t.

 

Largely, anyone who plays mods is a classic example, as almost every historical mod has cartoonishly overpowered workers which render anything beyond a roleplaying experience completely moot.

 

 

But I’m not here to really argue your opinion on the game. More to dissuade any potential sentiment which may reflect a knee jerk reaction to change the system. Since I’m pretty convinced people are being intentionally hyperbolic in order to enact unnecessary changes they want, much like the National battle system change.

 

 

 

Especially given that almost every relevant worker for the last 2 entries has been unaffected by Fog entirely because they have enough experience to be fully scoutable on game start, it’s very hard for me to take these “dealbreaker” complaints as genuine.

[K-Nection]

If you ever thought fog of war added any challenge to the game you probably were playing either so suboptimal it doesn’t make a difference whether you do or you don’t, or you play with so many crutches it also doesn’t matter whether you do or you don’t.

 

Largely, anyone who plays mods is a classic example, as almost every historical mod has cartoonishly overpowered workers which render anything beyond a roleplaying experience completely moot.

 

 

But I’m not here to really argue your opinion on the game. More to dissuade any potential sentiment which may reflect a knee jerk reaction to change the system. Since I’m pretty convinced people are being intentionally hyperbolic in order to enact unnecessary changes they want, much like the National battle system change.

 

 

 

Especially given that almost every relevant worker for the last 2 entries has been unaffected by Fog entirely because they have enough experience to be fully scoutable on game start, it’s very hard for me to take these “dealbreaker” complaints as genuine.

 

Is it really necessary to quote and address almost every person that has a different opinion than you? We are fully aware you indifferent about FOW and love combining Technical stats.

[TLCJR4LIFE]

Promise system is weird.

 

 

 

Basically get to brute force push whoever gives a promise, then feed them to the promised worker for crazy gains.

 

Very much an unnecessary booking crutch.

 

 

Is it really necessary to quote and address almost every person that has a different opinion than you? We are fully aware you indifferent about FOW and love combining Technical stats.

 

Yes.

 

 

Particularly when said opinions are uninformed or based in incorrect information.

[Kingster]

Heh, another day at GDS, another huge flamewar. Over features of a text-based wrestling simulator.

 

Sorry, but if you think this has been a "huge flamewar", you should probably stop reading discussions on the internet.

After all, this thread is called the TEW2020 Discussion Thread so this is what you get. This has been an intense, but rather harmless debate with a smidge of polemics thrown in.

 

Anyways, with regards to the discussion of merging the technical skills:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the game already take only the highest top row skill into account when calculating match ratings? So, in theory, you could just merge all the in-ring skills into one, call it "wrestling" and assign a number betwenn 0 and 100. Would make modding and comparing workers much easier, but that would be boring, right?

So, on first glance it might seem like merging the technical skills together wouldn't change anything, but I don't think it's true as it makes playing the game less complex (which I personally don't like).

Also, don't forget that workers skills aren't static. They do improve or they get worse. So while a wrestler's best skill may be in chain wrestling at the start of the game, he may end up being better in mat wrestling later on. So scrapping some of these skills takes this dynamic away. Again, I'm not a fan of this.

 

Obviously, we haven't played the game yet and don't know anything about how it will turn out. But I'm starting to think that while TEW2020 has some great new features already announced, Adam Ryland seems to take a rather simplistic and more "by the numbers" approach to the new game, which concerns me a little bit. Skills being taken away, fog of war being removed (which is still a huge deal for me) and even being able to compare wrestlers at a glance removes quite a bit of the "simulation" aspect of the game and this can't be a good thing.

[K-Nection]

Promise system is weird.

 

Yes.

 

 

Particularly when said opinions are uninformed or based in incorrect information.

 

But you said that big wall of text to a post that just said +1.

[TeemuFoundation]

Sorry, but if you think this has been a "huge flamewar", you should probably stop reading discussions on the internet.

I know you're joking, but you're also 100% correct. Very rarely does anyhing fruitful come out of reading discussions on the internet. So your advice is actually very sound.

Anyways, with regards to the discussion of merging the technical skills:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the game already take only the highest top row skill into account when calculating match ratings? So, in theory, you could just merge all the in-ring skills into one, call it "wrestling" and assign a number betwenn 0 and 100.

I've actually suggested this, and I would love it, but I know no one else would.

[Kingster]

If you ever thought fog of war added any challenge to the game you probably were playing either so suboptimal it doesn’t make a difference whether you do or you don’t, or you play with so many crutches it also doesn’t matter whether you do or you don’t.

 

Not all players play the game like you. There are people who don't want to "figure the game out", who don't want to play "optimal" and beat the game. It might seem silly, but whenever I start a new save game, I try to "forget" how good or bad certain workers were that I've played with in a previous save game. That's part of intentionally playing suboptimal and why I love playing simulation games.

 

This game is supposed to be a pro wrestling simulator and taking some of the aspects away that make it a simulator, like fog of war, is not a good thing. FOW might not have been implemented 100 % perfectly, but it at least was realistic and added a challenge to the game.

Your roster is the key part of the game and now going back to having complete information about each and everyone of them like in TEW2010 is just boring.

[RingRider]

My radical idea would be to have skill values assigned to styles over all the extraneous stats. Let's grade how proficient a worker is the style that the match and product call for. Memphis Rasslin, lucha, puro, junior, etc...all different and require different skill sets to get over.

 

Bret Hart once described in his book about wrestling Jerry Lawler in Memphis being the comical style that was over the top compared to what they were doing on TV and other WWF events...Chris Jericho wrote about working on the opposite side of the body being a standard in lucha that threw him off while working Mexico...

 

These proficiencies would eliminate many of these extraneous stats. Tie them directly to the products.

[EBEZA]

Not all players play the game like you. There are people who don't want to "figure the game out", who don't want to play "optimal" and beat the game.

 

NO! You must become the perfect player!

 

But really, I don't understand why anyone is so adamantly against FOW, when it can clearly just be switched on or off on 2016, so it would make sense that, if it were to be kept in 2020, it would work the same way.

 

Don't like FOW? That's fine, it's one button click at the start of the game, and you don't have to worry about it.

[TeemuFoundation]

To be fair, I always push Stevie Richards, no matter how suboptimal. No wait, that is actually always optimal! In any company, any time period.

[shawn michaels]

I know you're joking, but you're also 100% correct. Very rarely does anyhing fruitful come out of reading discussions on the internet. So your advice is actually very sound.

 

I've actually suggested this, and I would love it, but I know no one else would.

 

Oh dude, that would be the cause of the biggest flamewar ever. But seriously, it was a heated argument between people with passionate opinions. Hardly a flamewar of any kind. It does provide some good insight to how people differently view the game.

 

As for the promise system, i agree with TLC. It's weird. Weird is the best word I can think to classify it. It is not a booking crutch, it was much needed to know what people were gonna do before you were actually watching them in the ring, or about to go to the ring. Yet the inclusion of the system being made around workers promising said stuff out of the blue, with no negotiating ability, is weird. I'm not complaining here, the part where we know what plans we can do before the matches was much needed, I just don't see Hulk Hogan (example) randomly walking to Bischoff and saying: "Brother, just put me in a program with Billy Kidman, brother. I guarantee I will put him over, brother. But he's all wrestling needs, so I gots to work with him, brother. Much love, HH." I mean, many others would randomly do so, but the booker should also have the ability to request it.

 

I've always seen it as the booker (not all the times, but most of it) outright laying out his plans and workers saying if they agree or not, and exercising creative control if they have it. (The previously announced floating ideas cover this. This feature by itself would be great with the actual negotiating ability included.) The actual part of random promises should probably fall under the category of a completely different system, (technically it does, but without the negotiating power it feels flat) not related to knowing if your workers want to do something or not, and that would make it rather interesting.

 

The main thing still missing is the ability to negotiate with workers to get what you want, or them negotiating with you to get what they want. This includes when they sign with you as well. I feel more options (and more meaningful ones) should be added in that regard as well.

[TLCJR4LIFE]

Not all players play the game like you. There are people who don't want to "figure the game out", who don't want to play "optimal" and beat the game. It might seem silly, but whenever I start a new save game, I try to "forget" how good or bad certain workers were that I've played with in a previous save game. That's part of intentionally playing suboptimal and why I love playing simulation games.

 

This game is supposed to be a pro wrestling simulator and taking some of the aspects away that make it a simulator, like fog of war, is not a good thing. FOW might not have been implemented 100 % perfectly, but it at least was realistic and added a challenge to the game.

Your roster is the key part of the game and now going back to having complete information about each and everyone of them like in TEW2010 is just boring.

 

 

I can see the merit of keeping it in as an option be not having the option to compare or search skills.

 

 

The thing is as I said it’s a vocal minority, so many players are either EWR players or mod players and it just doesn’t matter in these cases.

 

 

Moreover for the people it DOES affect, has the fog of war really ever made it unclear who is good in the game? It’s still extremely obvious.

 

 

 

 

 

Secondly my biggest issue with this complaint is that people overwhelmingly supported the star quality based National battle system, which did 100 times more to take away the simulation aspect of the game away than some silly fog of war feature.

 

 

The National battle system fundamentally changes the way the game can be played.

[tambourin81]

Wow, that promise system looks like a great addition that feels very realistic. I like the idea that workers will put over specific workers. I really hope that they won't decide at random and that these promises will be weighted towards people the worker has positive relations with (so that e.g. a veteran will promise to put over their protegé, or a main eventer will want to put over their best friend who is stuck in the lower card). It would also be great if this was further integrated with the personality system, where some people are simply more likely to put over people they like than others (to distinguish e.g. between a Flair and a Hogan type of personality).

[TeemuFoundation]

I'd like to add that I totally understand TLCJR4LIFE's standpoint as someone who seems to be into the optimized gameplay experience. As far as TEW goes, I'm the total opposite, and very much a casual. I pretty much just like to sandbox, in all honesty. I just want escapism, play fantasy head booker for a few hours, and push Stevie Richards. But I'm a top speedrunner of the game Mega Man X. And there's not a pixel or frame in that game that I don't know everything about. I'd argue that anything that's been discovered about that game by a human I'm aware of. And some of those discoveries have been by me. I sometimes watch a friend stream that game, and all the suboptimal things just hurt me in the head - regardless of how elitist I know it is. So I can get the mindset. Most of us are probably pretty casual, but we shouldn't diss those who like to enjoy the game differently - and indeed, as a game, moreso than a sandbox.

 

I'm somewhere in between, I think, now that I think about it. I enjoy the game throwing me curveballs, I enjoy injuries, and having to change my plans, and being challenged. And I hope financial woes become more of a thing for larger companies in 2020. But it's still sandbox first and foremost. Game second.

[TLCJR4LIFE]

I played 2013 as a sandbox.

 

2016 is difficult to play that way due to needing a very specific set of workers to sustain National or go beyond it.

 

 

I recently had a game for OLLIE and had Dr Rudo who highrolled 100 overness cap.

Normally I would’ve made him the biggest heel in Mexico and did a stable like the Legion of Evil and based my shows around him.

 

 

But due to National Battle system I was forced to use him as a midcarder and wait to poach Velicoiodad and El Leon from SOTBW.

 

 

 

Rudo has excellent charisma and great skills but only 75 star quality and no weight change.

 

7.5 x 100 = 750.

 

 

750 isn’t even hitting the board in a National battle. He’s non viable.

[tambourin81]

See the way the game generates overness caps is by looking at the characters starting overness and then going up. This causes a comical bias in overness caps for already existing main eventers, but because almost all new gens start at zero, their range is so much higher and more susceptible to lowrolling. Actually had a recent game of the best new gen I ever saw, he had 99 SQ after getting ripped but only B+ overness cap.

This always struck me as a rather bizarre design decision.

 

 

2016 is literally a math game not a booking simulator, but overwhelming prominence of mod play obscures this.

All simulators are ultimately math exercises, that's the entire point of computer simulation.

 

You've managed to convince me about National Battles, though.

 

Fortunately, 2020 apparently will be calculating NB scores as a combination of show grades and the old system, which strikes me as a useful compromise. A 100-capped low-SQ worker will be useful in generating good show grades while still leaving the strategy open of just buying up the highest SQ guys and pushing them to the main event.

[TeemuFoundation]

Life itself is a big math game to be tbh. It's just the most cleverly disguised.

[nerodragomir1]

I'm sure that this has been asked/discussed - but could TEW 2020 possibly include the option to book the eliminations in a multi-man match when that rule is turned on? I've been wanting to book a full Royal Rumble for so long!

 

I've been wanting that forever. The Road agent notes should be changed from 10. to more like 50. I know that's high but some matches need a crapton of notes added to it.

[Kingster]

Moreover for the people it DOES affect, has the fog of war really ever made it unclear who is good in the game? It’s still extremely obvious.

 

At least unclear enough to make it more interesting for me.

 

The thing is as I said it’s a vocal minority, so many players are either EWR players or mod players and it just doesn’t matter in these cases.

You're likely right about it being a vocal minority and that most players like to just play as WWE in real world mods. And yeah, these players probably don't care about stuff like that. They just want to play with their favourite wrestlers, that's all.

So, I guess it makes sense for Adam Ryland to cater to these players and it would probably be a smart business decision, too.

I don't blame him for that, I'm just saying that I don't like where the game is seemingly heading. I hope to be proven wrong on that.