My Gripe with the Way TEW Matches and Segments Are Rated (F-A)

[TeemuFoundation]

I guess this has to do with segments moreso than matches, to be completely honest. Matches being graded, from a technical standpoint, from F to A kind of makes. But this can be applied to matches, as well.

 

As someone who mainly plays as major companies - historical WWF, to be specific - something that turns me off when trying playthroughs as smaller companies is the fact that I feel that everything I produce is bad.

 

This, of course, being a result of the grades being so low compared to what I'm used to getting with a mainstream, entertainment-based company like the WWF.

 

 

Sometimes I wish the grades had some more context behind them. I know that I can just adjust my expectations and dig into the game mechanics to understand that even though this segment was only rated C-, it was still a good segment, but it's hard after years of school that trains us to see something like a C as nothing but painfully mediocre at best.

 

B is acceptable, but your goal is always an A.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it'd be nice for the segment grades to be adjusted to company size/popularity, etc. so that it'd be possible to score those As even as a smaller company, given that the segment accomplishes what it was set out to accomplish. If nothing else, the game could give us some kind of a pat on the back, a message in the segment rundown that lets us know exactly that: that from a technical standpoint, the segment was good and that the crowd liked it.

 

Some kind of an incentive, something to let us know we did a good job, and that it wasn't crap. This is also an issue I have with the way TEW works when debuting new wrestlers in a major company.

 

Someone like Brock Lesnar has no popularity at the start, he is virtually unknown when he first pops up on TV. There's no real way to make his debut segment good in terms of the grade it gets. Or someone like Kane.

 

But take Kane's debut. Awesome segment. Memorable, we still play it on YouTube to this day, everyone remembers it. Very impactful debut.

 

Re-produce that in TEW, and you'll just get a mediocre grade, leaving you feel like you did a bad job. Because Kane, at the time of the debut of the character, doesn't have the popularity to pull it off.

 

I'm probably just playing the game wrong, but since the 2020 release is coming close, I'm getting back to some TEW, and this is something I wanted to vent about for like 15 years now, hah.

 

I still love the game, though.

[redhilleagle]

Although I partly understand/agree to some extent with your post, I just "got used to it". I understood that as a local company, I wouldn't get As or B's. I only ever played local to global saves and my current save is the longest I've ever played (11 years in), and when I reached national and got my first A match, I was elated, I realised I had achieved something I never had before. I have yet to produce my first 100 match, but when I do, again, I'll be so pleased. If I was getting A's all the way through from Local to Cult, I wouldn't have had that same feeling of satisfation once I finally achieved it after years of trying.

[Self]

Perception is definitely based on what you're used to playing. I never play as the big boys, so to me D is Fine, C is Great, B is Awesome, and A is an impossible dream. I like that scale. Feels like room to improve.

 

I do think more positive feedback would be nice though. Similar to how we get updates on storylines in every segment (X has lost heat, X has gained heat) getting a sentence on how your debuting monster 'gained popularity from this segment' might reframe his first segment as a success, even if it 'only' got a C.

 

I do wonder if Kane & Brock's debuts are only considered great in hindsight. If they had been injured and quit a few weeks after those debuts, would we still look back so fondly?

[TeemuFoundation]

I do wonder if Kane & Brock's debuts are only considered great in hindsight. If they had been injured and quit a few weeks after those debuts, would we still look back so fondly?

I'm sure Kane's would be. It was an objectively great segment that made an impact. Brock's debut was basically just a few powerbombs, so it wasn't anything super special, but it wasn't bad, either.

[redhilleagle]

 

Someone like Brock Lesnar has no popularity at the start, he is virtually unknown when he first pops up on TV. There's no real way to make his debut segment good in terms of the grade it gets. Or someone like Kane.

 

But take Kane's debut. Awesome segment. Memorable, we still play it on YouTube to this day, everyone remembers it. Very impactful debut.

 

Re-produce that in TEW, and you'll just get a mediocre grade, leaving you feel like you did a bad job. Because Kane, at the time of the debut of the character, doesn't have the popularity to pull it off.

 

 

I still love the game, though.

 

I made a similar post recently regarding this. Totally agree.

[Vinsmoker]

Scaling it based on size would honestly be very disappointing in the long run. The best thing about playing as smaller companies is seeing them constantly and slowly improving. When I got my first B- in one of my RTG games, it was a great feeling and gave me a significant indication on what works and what not. If it were scaled, I wouldn't see any difference betwwen a B- and a C+ or even an A. That would kinda defeat the point of starting out small.

 

Perhaps you should try to re-color the numbers as part of the skin, in order for your current "ceiling" to appear in blue. Or just flatout replace the lower grades with the higher ones

[TeemuFoundation]

Scaling it based on size would honestly be very disappointing in the long run. The best thing about playing as smaller companies is seeing them constantly and slowly improving. When I got my first B- in one of my RTG games, it was a great feeling and gave me a significant indication on what works and what not. If it were scaled, I wouldn't see any difference betwwen a B- and a C+ or even an A. That would kinda defeat the point of starting out small.

 

Perhaps you should try to re-color the numbers as part of the skin, in order for your current "ceiling" to appear in blue. Or just flatout replace the lower grades with the higher ones

I hear you, and I get this, but this attitude is sort of saying that a company like ECW is simply unable to produce a good segment. And it needs to reach the size of a WCW or WWF to produce good segments.

[Blake Trask]

Having a contextual scale would make everything blend together for me, and it'd also make it way harder to tell what's actually going well and what isn't.

 

Also might lead to situations where you jump from regional to cult and your grades get 'worse' even though they're the same.

 

It's very possible to get high segment/match grades as a small company. Like Vin said, it makes those outstanding moments so much more satisfying when you knock it out the park.

 

I just find it easier to realign my expectations with the company. Once I've booked a couple shows I know what's good and bad relative to what I've got.

[Teh_Showtime]

I thought popularity gains were relative to how much better the show is to your company popularity?

 

So if you have 40 popularity and constantly score 50 rated shows you’ll increase less than if you were producing 90 rated shows (for the sake of argument this is very possible in the billionaire startup scenario that can buy elite talent to a tiny company).

 

If everything is contextual how does this change? At what point does an A* show “for that level” do just as much as an A* show if it happens under the current system?

 

Segment ratings are only impacted by the workers involved (and product give or take modifiers). If you put WWE as a local company with the same exact roster they’ll put on the same ratings as if they were national. It also would skew year end awards to small companies or make it outright impossible for them to win at all because of the artificial equivalence capping a show because it was as good as possible “for that level”.

[TeemuFoundation]

Oh, it could be purely cosmetic. The math behind the scenes could be whatever.

[kdcastles]

You can make the debut of someone who isn't over at all still a great segment if you play to their strengths. Take your Kane debut example. When I debuted him, I would not score Kane on popularity, but instead, on his menace grade. That way his contribution to the segment would be in the upper-80's or into the 90's depending on what mod you are playing with. Same could be done for Lesnar. Just remember to look at how you want to present the character and make sure your worker has that ability. I love the no talent, monster with high menace because I find him really easy to get over.

[Brushfire]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TeemuFoundation" data-cite="TeemuFoundation" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47353" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> I guess what I'm trying to say is, it'd be nice for the segment grades to be adjusted to company size/popularity, etc. </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I've always felt this way, and I'm glad that someone else does too. It's a shame that this suggestion has come a little too late into the development of the upcoming game, though!</p><p> </p><p> Edit: Agree with the point that it could be purely cosmetic too. Obviously in reality you are likely producing better quality segments and matches at higher levels, but it would be nice to not feel like you're producing absolute trash at the lower levels.</p>

[djthefunkchris]

<p>I'm not 100% sure of the mechanics obviously, but maybe the grades for smaller companies can be weighted by size. I believe the biggest difference with the more popular companies is just that, popularity of their workers. Say your company is only 25% popular (around GSW size), the scale for your workers would be as if a 25% match would be weighted around 80% to 85% in comparison with the company. Better than average, not quite the best you could do. As your company grows, the scale would change. IF (small word big meaning) the mechanics even allow what I'm sayin' as I might be 100% incorrect.</p><p> </p><p>

Or you could do like we did in the past, and make different grades for different sizes, and replace them as your promotion gets bigger.</p>

[Blackman]

<p>Not a fan of adjusted ratings here.</p><p> </p><p>

You're basically saying that the AJ Styles debut, if it was indeed a segment, wouldn't be a big deal: just a guy posing or standing around while people cheered for no reason, because the whole thing wasn't a big deal on itself. This was all overness, and you know for a fact the debut added to the card rating. Some of the AEW debuts wouldn't be the same without the knowledge of who it is that's interrupting this segment. Pop is a factor and you can't just get a guaranteed A if the guy has A menace and is just showing his face without any dialogue. It's just some random creepy big dude.</p><p> </p><p>

It's true TEW doesn't take the production values into account. If they gave Wyatt's current gimmick to a nobody it might've gained almost the same attention. I somehow doubt it, though. <img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p><p> </p><p>

But don't see it as "producing trash". You aren't. It's all relative. Let's just say few people care about your segment. I don't see anyone posting some crap indy org's heel segment like it's a big deal. Even if it was incredibly clever, most would just shrug or say "that's cool" and move on. They might've gained some fans. In the game too: you could get C's from these kind of segments where your average show rating is D+. That would be better than some of WWE/SWF's segments, so don't feel bad.</p><p> </p><p>

Don't get me started about how gamey this could be. Let's just close the show with some random heel scaring people. EZ A. Watch me hit national within several years because the dude looks like a badass. If that's how it works, why hire stars at all? I'm not sure you thought about the bigger picture.</p><p> </p><p>

Apologies if I got the message wrong, but I felt like you're questioning the role of overness. I'm pretty confident an AJ Styles debut would skyrocket the rating of any crap indy promotion, should it have happened. there's something to be said about ratings in relation to the rest of the show, but there's an option to disable the "perfect show theory" so no need imo.</p>

[TeemuFoundation]

I know I’m not producing trash. It’s about perception. Years of school life have taught me that a C is nothing to be proud of.

[Derek B]

I get what you're saying. Having a more direct feedback saying "your fans liked this" is always good to have and is encouraging and rewarding for players.

 

Most parts of the game have a message that does this already (if you're doing well) for things like increasing storyline heat, worker performance ratings (which you can track for yourself if you wish), the match descriptions saying notes on crowd heat and match quality.... and of course the notes for what is happening to your popularity after a show, with gains obviously meaning you did well.

 

Having a stronger set of phrasings that puts over how well you are doing could be a positive change, but at the same time.... doing badly may also need similar things and could be viewed very negatively.

 

One immediate idea I have for a potential workaround (aside from switching to numbers) would be to have a series of mini skins that have different grades set for different popularity levels. For example, you could have a "Local Sized Skin" grade pack that replaced the higher levels from maybe C- to A* as all being "AWESOME", with lower levels going down to great, good, okay, trash (or whatever). Then the next size up "Small Sized Skin" could be from C+ to A* rating as AWESOME, with the lower grades shifting slowly... repeat for each size all the way up wth whatever you'd like your scale to be and you can get past the weightings for your own shows, though it may make other companies look.... strange in any places that also show these grades.

[Blackman]

would be to have a series of mini skins that have different grades set for different popularity levels.

 

Or you can just deduct that you're doing great when you're getting a C-rated segment when you're used to getting D's all the time. I honestly thing the system is fair. Psychologically, in the US, there might be a barrier with F ratings given they symbolize you failing a test. In TEW, I don't think you're ever doing well with F ratings, as those are horrible. A brown D doesn't make me feel like I suck, tbh, even when I just started out ages ago.

 

I'm not opposed to this idea, but you can't make 10 of these skins so it will always be a little weird. I expect getting A's and "promoting" to the next level will have you get C's and make you think you suck again. But direct feedback that expands on you doing well in relation to your pop or previous events will always be welcome for both old and new players.

 

I know I’m not producing trash. It’s about perception. Years of school life have taught me that a C is nothing to be proud of.

 

If it is merely the C that is triggering these feelings: there's mods that change the letters with other things, maybe symbols. If school is the reason, that would solve your problem.

 

The current system is not perfect, but it's better than any alternative I've heard so far. It's weird to see one of your indy stars get lower ratings in another promotion because he is used differently or is less popular in that area. It brings him down in the top 500, which frustrates me a little. But how else will you connect it with the other ratings? Imo you need one system. Besides, I think the top 500 system looks further than the letter grade and looks at individual performance (and outshining others).

[djthefunkchris]

Or you can just deduct that you're doing great when you're getting a C-rated segment when you're used to getting D's all the time. I honestly thing the system is fair. Psychologically, in the US, there might be a barrier with F ratings given they symbolize you failing a test. In TEW, I don't think you're ever doing well with F ratings, as those are horrible. A brown D doesn't make me feel like I suck, tbh, even when I just started out ages ago.

 

I'm not opposed to this idea, but you can't make 10 of these skins so it will always be a little weird. I expect getting A's and "promoting" to the next level will have you get C's and make you think you suck again. But direct feedback that expands on you doing well in relation to your pop or previous events will always be welcome for both old and new players.

 

 

 

If it is merely the C that is triggering these feelings: there's mods that change the letters with other things, maybe symbols. If school is the reason, that would solve your problem.

 

The current system is not perfect, but it's better than any alternative I've heard so far. It's weird to see one of your indy stars get lower ratings in another promotion because he is used differently or is less popular in that area. It brings him down in the top 500, which frustrates me a little. But how else will you connect it with the other ratings? Imo you need one system. Besides, I think the top 500 system looks further than the letter grade and looks at individual performance (and outshining others).

 

Hey Blackman I think your missing what is being asked (or maybe I am). I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) you're thinking they are asking for something that effects in game mechanics...

 

What I believe people like the OP are talking about is purely cosmetic, just a way to have generic grades, perhaps even if only during their show, that are curved to their promotion. Not something that affects how fast their popularity goes up, or anything else that changes the game in any way. The mechanics would all still by the same, the difference would only be that a promotion be graded on a "curve" for that promotion... So an A* for my local promotion is really the equivalent of a D+ or C- in a Global company. The only difference is I get to see how my talent ranks in my local sized promotion. As my popularity goes up, these grades would lower for the same exact points or whatever is used in the game system.

 

It wouldn't gain anything... What Derek posted is very similar to what I posted, and I think "maybe" this is something that can be useful for people that want it, and not even used for people that don't. It won't change how fast anyone moves up, or anything else.

[djthefunkchris]

If it is merely the C that is triggering these feelings: there's mods that change the letters with other things, maybe symbols. If school is the reason, that would solve your problem.

 

That's exactly what is being asked, I believe. A way to change it out, maybe built into the game instead of having to mod/trade them out as you grow in popularity.

 

Right now we could change the C+ with an A*, C with A, D+ with B+, etc. What if there was a way the game could automatically pick them for you while your that size?

[Historian]

I understand what is being asked for, but ultimately my question is why?

 

I'm a person who plays almost exclusively as small companies (or at least companies that start out small and grow). There is a real benefit of seeing a C+ (not that it matters for 2020 since letter grades are entirely gone if I remember correctly) as opposed to an A+. I want to know where my guys stack up in the world, not just for my audience.

 

I spent years trying to build Riley McManus into a star and it was incredibly satisfying getting to see his grades go up as his popularity and skills went up. I understand wanting to feel like your match or angle tore the house down or really captivated your audience, but it also would be a lie in making you feel like your segments were better in the world than they were.

 

As a booker, I want to know how things are getting over with my audience and how I'm doing against the other companies. Plus, the text always tell me how something did. "A match that had good heat and good wrestling", okay, awesome. A good performance in an angle, awesome.

 

I had a game where I was booking SCCW with Killer Shark (who got cut from TCW) as my top heel. I built him into my most over wrestler and the most over wrestler in the South East that wasn't signed to a major company and I got to see that result in the grades going up and up as he got more popular.

 

I really like the way segments are graded now and would really not like to see that change -- even for cosmetic purposes.

[ThePastor]

You have to consider the totality of the entire segment.

 

In strict TEW terms

 

We are putting in a repackaged Isaac Yankem DDS as well as fake Diesel who probably was 50-55 Pop nationally at the time graded as Menace(he would’ve been in the mid to high 90s) against Undertakers Overness in the mid to high 80s. That easily would’ve been a B- or B rated segment even in TEW despite it being a “debut”

[djthefunkchris]

I understand what is being asked for, but ultimately my question is why?

 

I'm a person who plays almost exclusively as small companies (or at least companies that start out small and grow). There is a real benefit of seeing a C+ (not that it matters for 2020 since letter grades are entirely gone if I remember correctly) as opposed to an A+. I want to know where my guys stack up in the world, not just for my audience.

 

I spent years trying to build Riley McManus into a star and it was incredibly satisfying getting to see his grades go up as his popularity and skills went up. I understand wanting to feel like your match or angle tore the house down or really captivated your audience, but it also would be a lie in making you feel like your segments were better in the world than they were.

 

As a booker, I want to know how things are getting over with my audience and how I'm doing against the other companies. Plus, the text always tell me how something did. "A match that had good heat and good wrestling", okay, awesome. A good performance in an angle, awesome.

 

I had a game where I was booking SCCW with Killer Shark (who got cut from TCW) as my top heel. I built him into my most over wrestler and the most over wrestler in the South East that wasn't signed to a major company and I got to see that result in the grades going up and up as he got more popular.

 

I really like the way segments are graded now and would really not like to see that change -- even for cosmetic purposes.

It wouldn't have to change at all for you (or me). I believe something like this could be implemented as easy as changing the Picture folder.

 

I prefer the same way as you, and that's how I would play it. I'm just trying to emphasize what the OP and other(s) are talking about.

 

I don't mind something that doesn't have to affect my game, especially if it makes someone else's game more enjoyable. Just because I "prefer" it the way it is, doesn't mean it's better for everyone else. IF I feel that it would ruin my game, it doesn't mean it would ruin someone else's game.

[a0161613]

You have to consider the totality of the entire segment.

 

In strict TEW terms

 

We are putting in a repackaged Isaac Yankem DDS as well as fake Diesel who probably was 50-55 Pop nationally at the time graded as Menace(he would’ve been in the mid to high 90s) against Undertakers Overness in the mid to high 80s. That easily would’ve been a B- or B rated segment even in TEW despite it being a “debut”

 

In a hot storyline with a great manager. It's an A all day long.

 

I get the argument to an extent but the Kane example is awful.

[TeemuFoundation]

People make good points, and I think it all comes down to what I said in the opening post; I play the game wrong, and want it to be something it almost is, but isn't quite, but comes close enough to being able to trick me. But I end up having fun anyway, so there's that.

[Remianen]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TeemuFoundation" data-cite="TeemuFoundation" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47353" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Someone like Brock Lesnar has no popularity at the start, he is virtually unknown when he first pops up on TV. There's no real way to make his debut segment good in terms of the grade it gets. Or someone like Kane.<p> </p><p> But take Kane's debut. Awesome segment. Memorable, we still play it on YouTube to this day, everyone remembers it. Very impactful debut.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The major difference between these two is prior experience and knowledge. Brock's debut (in TEW terms) would rate lower than Kane's because of the presence of Undertaker (in his prime). Brock's debut would hinge on his menace (which would be relatively high but not 90+) and Heyman's entertainment skills and popularity. Kane's debut hinged on his menace, Paul Bearer's entertainment skills and popularity (which would've been higher than Heyman's due to his prior association with....) and Undertaker's popularity (which would've been sky high).</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TeemuFoundation" data-cite="TeemuFoundation" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47353" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>People make good points, and I think it all comes down to what I said in the opening post; I play the game wrong, and want it to be something it almost is, but isn't quite, but comes close enough to being able to trick me.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> First off, no one plays the game "wrong". The problem with the cosmetic suggestion is that it takes away the sense of progression (from Es to As over time). I completely understand how you've been conditioned to view letter grades and the like through a certain lens. We all have to some extent (unless you simply got Pass/Fail grades in school). But look at it this way, if you went from getting Ds in school to As, you'd be pretty darn proud of yourself, wouldn't you? For good reason! Now, how proud would you be if all you ever got were Bs and As? Where's the improvement? How do you know?</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TeemuFoundation" data-cite="TeemuFoundation" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47353" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>But I end up having fun anyway, so there's that.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> And that's the bottom line.....you know how it ends.</p>