Making Menace more valuable

[Capelli King]

This was also brought up in the discussions here: http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2438803&posted=1#post2438803

 

Currently the ratio is 75/25 (Pop / Menace) which is the same being used for Sex appeal. I think menacing monsters should be more valuable and easier to get over than pretty boys / girls. Menacing workers are usually also larger on average, which means they struggle in other stats such as stamina, high flying/flash and also technical skills. So by having lower value to their Menace, it means getting them over is more difficult than smaller / less menacing workers.

 

I think pushing the ratio up to 35 or 40 would probably solve the issue.

[Derek B]

<p>From what I could get from a quick skim read of that thread, people want menace based angles to score more highly NOW. But the 75:25 ratio is there because as with so many other aspects of roster development, things don't always deliver NOW. You can't just take Generic Scary Big Guy #47 and have them get segment ratings that make them instantly on the same level as big names rated on things like entertainment. That doesn't reflect reality in any way.</p><p> </p><p>

It takes time to build a star, no matter which way you do it. Whether it's menace, sex appeal, entertainment skills, fighting, etc.... by having segment ratings place a lot more value on overness you see a more gradual build of a worker in line with how pushes work in real life, which is a good thing. Getting people over in TEW has always been super easy, yet when you compare the rate at which a TEW16 monster could get over on menace angles vs how quickly guys like Lesnar and Goldberg got over, it's clear TEW was too fast. Especially for all the people who were pushed similarly and FAILED. Big Show, Erick Rowan, Vladimir Koslov, Tank Abbott, The Great Khali, Braun Strowman, Lars Sullivan and so many others.... they got menace pushes and can easily be compared to generic big guys., but in TEW succeeded far too fast.</p><p> </p><p>

With the 75:25 mix, the balance is towards long term booking. A hyper menacing guy may not have the strongest debut, but a few months down the line with strong booking they're going to be delivering strong ratings as they always have. And continuing to book them well will keep giving good ratings. The same is true of any booking strategy. TEW20 is slower than previous games, but that's more in line with reality than the games ever were before. It can take some time to adapt to that line of thinking, but it makes so much more sense than being able to take any menacing person and get strong ratings out of the gate. Remember Braun Strowman's debut? Remember him during his fued with Roman Reigns? Same menace score, VERY different results. <img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

[SirMichaelJordan]

<p>i agree, It encourages smart booking imo.</p><p> </p><p>

The old way (along with sex appeal) was too fast and gamey. IMO.</p>

[Croquemitaine]

The problem with the 25/75 split (and this applies to Sex Appeal too), is that it renders the actual stat almost meaningless. We might as well go back to the days when everyone was rated on Overness for everything*.

 

In TEW2016 (and 2013 too, I think), the split was 60/40 in favour of Menace. This is what made Menace angles so effective. It doesn't bother me that the ratio got nerfed, but dropping from 60 to 25 is massive overkill, especially with the further penalty if the angle goes over 4 minutes and the new active/passive mechanics**

 

The truth is that a big scary guy can pop a crowd even if he's unknown***. There's a limit to that, sure, but something like a 50/50 split (or even 40/60 to match the other angle ratings) would be enough to achieve realistic results. It would prevent a rookie monster from getting a meaningfully high angle rating in a national promotion, but allow them to be something special in an indy fed.

 

 

* Yes, this is deliberate hyperbole. I understand that while it's true that a popular small guy will rate better in a Menace role than an unpopular big scary guy, it's also true that the popular small guy will rate even better on pure Overness so you'd be an idiot to book him to use Menace.

 

** I'm not a fan of the 4 minute penalty, but the active/passive mechanic is an excellent addition to the game.

 

*** Actually, and this would be difficult to model in the game, a lot of these guys get their biggest pop when no one knows who they are. It's only after a few weeks when they get exposed as lumbering no-talent charisma-holes that the audience loses interest.

[The Nickman]

I actually don’t have a problem with this mechanic or the new 25:75 split between Menace and Overness. Seriously, the number one way to get a monster over now (which is how it works IRL too) is to put them with a good manager with good Entertainment skills.

 

You start off with a few promos, rate the manager on Entertainment and the monster on Menace (this will also avoid the “nothing interesting penalty” and if the manager is good you’ll be able to go a decent amount of time) and then book the guy in a couple of squash matches or angles where he destroys a few guys to build his momentum.

 

Once his momentum gets going he’ll put on pop quicker and quicker. Remember, all you need is angles better than his current pop and he will gain, the 25 weighting for Menace will ensure that, and coupled with the manager’s good Entertainment and the monster’s momentum once it’s going, you should be getting there in no time.

 

As mentioned earlier, no workers should be coming out of the gate and hitting high angle ratings, even Brock Lesnar wasn’t doing that when he debuted. Slow and steady wins the race, but there’s definitely a mechanism for getting monsters (or any worker for that matter) over if you apply it properly.

[sheik7]

<p>Actually it has to be more complicated than 75/25 or something like that.</p><p> </p><p>

In Real world, menace has huge impact on first appearance, and then people gradually get used to it.</p><p> </p><p>

That's why Andre the giant did not stay in a territory for long.</p>

[WCGreyghost]

You can't just take Generic Scary Big Guy #47 and have them get segment ratings that make them instantly on the same level as big names rated on things like entertainment. That doesn't reflect reality in any way.

 

 

Big Bubba Rogers shrugging off a breakaway chair shot from Dusty had him over huge with a few seconds of air time. Dusty later did the same thing with Meng. Vader got over standing there while Harley did the talking. Kamala. One Man Gang. Bundy. Abby. All those guys got over at least in part by being huge and looking scary. I'd hope for a 50/50 ratio, but at least a substantial bump needs to happen.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Big Bubba Rogers shrugging off a breakaway chair shot from Dusty had him over huge with a few seconds of air time. Dusty later did the same thing with Meng. Vader got over standing there while Harley did the talking. Kamala. One Man Gang. Bundy. Abby. All those guys got over at least in part by being huge and looking scary. I'd hope for a 50/50 ratio, but at least a substantial bump needs to happen.

 

Yet none of those guys mentioned were in a program by themselves and got over from just being menacing.

[The Nickman]

Yet none of those guys mentioned were in a program by themselves and got over from just being menacing.

Exactly, those guys got over from Dusty and Harley talking.

[njmcfreak]

i agree, It encourages smart booking imo.

 

The old way (along with sex appeal) was too fast and gamey. IMO.

 

This. I'm loving the way it is now.

[praguepride]

Menace isn’t useless at all. It is GUARANTEED GOOD RESULts in line with your promotion size. No off days, no script problems, no fog of war. Pick a guy with high menace and for a small company guaranteed good. Not amazing, but good enough for them to gain pop fast which means guaranteed higher results.

 

In my diary my monster push has gained about 20 pop over 3 shows. Given my fed pop is only about 25 that is fantastic....for is size. What this does mean is no more A* segments coming out of teeny tiny feds rocketing feds to the moon. No more “half the show is two big guys looking mean at one another” RTG hacks.

 

Think of it as the monster just isn’t as impressive anymore. There has been too many Marat Karklovs and Dreads.

 

Onthat note perhaps attach it to products? So maybe golden age products alter that mix so it is more 50/50 because fans were impressed to see a giant like it was the circus while more modern products use over ness as a limiter. Yeah he’s big but everyone has a big guy. Let’s see what he can do...

[Blackman]

You can't just take Generic Scary Big Guy #47 and have them get segment ratings that make them instantly on the same level as big names rated on things like entertainment. That doesn't reflect reality in any way.

 

I agree it was too gamey, but it still doesn't make sense to me that the angle sucked. In reality, people don't exactly go: "omg what a monster. But I don't know who he is so meh". It captured their attention the moment the squash matches happen. It's THERE that people actually go: "oh look, another big guy squashing someone: meh". The angle, when delivered well, makes them care about this particular big dude. A 95 menace dude is in no way a "generic big guy".

[thadian]

Menace 40 would be the perfect solution.

 

Give all your "Entertainment" and "Menace" guys some Dwayne Johnson level of charismatic skills.

 

Your other option is to just use Fighting - but we all know the real intention was/is Menace. Because this isn't a "fighting" scene, it's a Menace scene. But we have to use what gets the numbers up, so either cheat your Vaders and Marats to have 96 Star Power and Charisma, and 100 Menace... or your big monsters will get ratings around 50-75. And you better not have a promotion that hates short matches/angles.

[thadian]

I agree it was too gamey, but it still doesn't make sense to me that the angle sucked. In reality, people don't exactly go: "omg what a monster. But I don't know who he is so meh". It captured their attention the moment the squash matches happen. It's THERE that people actually go: "oh look, another big guy squashing someone: meh". The angle, when delivered well, makes them care about this particular big dude. A 95 menace dude is in no way a "generic big guy".

 

No, instead you just give them all 100 Charisma and Star Power and even with Menace 70, they can still procure high ratings on Menace angles.

 

It's really funny. 100 Menace with 50 Charisma is actually less menacing than 100 Charisma 10 Menace. So my comedy guy is can pull better Menace angles by default. Which is really weird.

 

I mean, I get it - the charisma guy can do ANY type of charisma skill, and Jason Vorhees wasn't no 8 foot tall, right? So of course Charisma matters more. But now it matters so much more that a Menace Vacuum with charisma will always have better Menace angles than a Full Menace with half charisma.

 

It's like in Dungeons and Dragons 3e, a friendly charisma gnome farmer can make Intimidation Check 25 because of Charisma Skill - while Orc Berzerker can only make Intimidation Check 8-14 most of the time because Orcs get penalty to Charisma. So the guy with more charisma - the local nice guy - is more scary when it comes to rolling the dice, than the 7 foot tall warpainted orc with a greataxe, who's splattered in blood and wearing a skull.

 

There has to be a better way than to recreate this scenario in TEW.

[Blackman]

Really? You tested that? That would be ridiculous. Fact of the matter is that menace is one of the most useless stats (and there's several of those in the game). IF the guy is over (big IF) you can use it IF it's significantly higher than their entertainment skills or fighting skill.

 

It used to be some gimmick requirement. I totally get that it's no longer that, but... useless indeed.

[praguepride]

It's like in Dungeons and Dragons 3e, a friendly charisma gnome farmer can make Intimidation Check 25 because of Charisma Skill - while Orc Berzerker can only make Intimidation Check 8-14 most of the time because Orcs get penalty to Charisma. So the guy with more charisma - the local nice guy - is more scary when it comes to rolling the dice, than the 7 foot tall warpainted orc with a greataxe, who's splattered in blood and wearing a skull.

 

Well having high Charisma represents being able to read your audience and react accordingly. Some big guy going "GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR" for 5 minutes gets really stupid fast.

 

We've all seen poor attempts at menace, especially in wrestling. Goldberg is a good example. Yeah he has a menacing look but when he makes that conspitation face he looks kinda stupid. However everyone thinks of him as a monster because of his streak where he crushed everyone in the WCW.

 

Overness > Menace. Goldberg is my Exhibit A.

 

Exhibit B: The Undertaker. The Undertaker's body type isn't bad, but he's not a ripped maniac like Brock Lesnar or Batista was. However because of his Charisma, that haunting way he kind of sucked you in. His body language, that stride, that death stare. He ended up being really menacing BECAUSE of his entertainment skills.

[Bull]

Well having high Charisma represents being able to read your audience and react accordingly. Some big guy going "GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR" for 5 minutes gets really stupid fast.

 

We've all seen poor attempts at menace, especially in wrestling. Goldberg is a good example. Yeah he has a menacing look but when he makes that conspitation face he looks kinda stupid. However everyone thinks of him as a monster because of his streak where he crushed everyone in the WCW.

 

Overness > Menace. Goldberg is my Exhibit A.

 

Exhibit B: The Undertaker. The Undertaker's body type isn't bad, but he's not a ripped maniac like Brock Lesnar or Batista was. However because of his Charisma, that haunting way he kind of sucked you in. His body language, that stride, that death stare. He ended up being really menacing BECAUSE of his entertainment skills.

 

Sound about right, I would argue that Taker would get by more on Star Quality and Charisma rather than menace. Size wise sure he'd have some menace and it certainly added to the character, but then you look at someone like Kane who was pretty much soley billed as this big Menacing monster, and got over by association to Taker, it's pretty clear you need more than just a good look to get over. .

[thadian]

From what I could get from a quick skim read of that thread, people want menace based angles to score more highly NOW. But the 75:25 ratio is there because as with so many other aspects of roster development, things don't always deliver NOW. You can't just take Generic Scary Big Guy #47 and have them get segment ratings that make them instantly on the same level as big names rated on things like entertainment. That doesn't reflect reality in any way.

 

It takes time to build a star, no matter which way you do it. Whether it's menace, sex appeal, entertainment skills, fighting, etc.... by having segment ratings place a lot more value on overness you see a more gradual build of a worker in line with how pushes work in real life, which is a good thing. Getting people over in TEW has always been super easy, yet when you compare the rate at which a TEW16 monster could get over on menace angles vs how quickly guys like Lesnar and Goldberg got over, it's clear TEW was too fast. Especially for all the people who were pushed similarly and FAILED. Big Show, Erick Rowan, Vladimir Koslov, Tank Abbott, The Great Khali, Braun Strowman, Lars Sullivan and so many others.... they got menace pushes and can easily be compared to generic big guys., but in TEW succeeded far too fast.

 

With the 75:25 mix, the balance is towards long term booking. A hyper menacing guy may not have the strongest debut, but a few months down the line with strong booking they're going to be delivering strong ratings as they always have. And continuing to book them well will keep giving good ratings. The same is true of any booking strategy. TEW20 is slower than previous games, but that's more in line with reality than the games ever were before. It can take some time to adapt to that line of thinking, but it makes so much more sense than being able to take any menacing person and get strong ratings out of the gate. Remember Braun Strowman's debut? Remember him during his fued with Roman Reigns? Same menace score, VERY different results.

1. Realistic? Anyone can say realism: "It's also unrealistic for a big dude with a great physique and look to get no reaction!", look at Sid Vicious making his WWE debut, or Earthquake when he tricked Warrior with his Dino Bravo pushups segment. Fans didn't "yawn" because "generic guy 47".

 

2. I believe the balance should be closer to 60/40, with 40% being Menace. Maybe Athleticism and Size could give small boosts to bring it up. This would allow Menacing Monsters to properly hit 80-84 for an Angle or two to catch interest. But if their first match is a stinker, even if they win, their momentum will go down. Which drags them down even further - at which point, their Menace is the ONLY thing saving them and making them a worthy contribution to the roster. This is why "reality" that so many Menacing Monsters either jobbed to 1-2 stars, then 2-3 jobbers, then went to a different territory unless they found a tag or stable program for a while, or became a main staple of the company such as Andre, Vader, Goldberg, Undertaker, Kane, etc. Oh, as for Rowan and Harper, rewatch the youtube videos - they were impactful the first few weeks. Then, fans started to dwindle interest because their matches lacked in quality. But their size and power counted for more than 25%.

 

3. 60/40 is even better long-term booking. As the menace will often have an unexciting match, the fans will be cold on them anyway. Their 40% Menace will keep their angles up as the only redeeming quality. In the older games, the problem was anyone could get a rating well equal to "Menace" in a "Menace" angle, which I agree was stupid. However, this was not really the best answer. I would almost rather see a slightly overpowered Menace Score than be forced to create every single Sid Justice as a "The Rock" on charisma and star power just so that he's somewhat useful.

 

My closing statement, fine sir, is that all our monsters would be better off using anything but Menace under the current system - and those who can use Menace the most effectively are 5'4 Torrie Wilson's rather than Big Van Vader in the current system. Isn't that kind of silly? So now when we intend a Menace to get over, we have to make them skilled at someone else's thing instead of their own. For example, you can just make every Menace a Dwayne Johnson on terms of Charisma and Star Power. Minimum 80. Now your Menaces will NEVER flounder where they should strive again - the price is that everyone else who's main "things" are Star Power and Charisma who are not a Menace are now... reduced in value because there's a bunch of them that are also Menaces. So wouldn't it be better to let Menace have a higher impact?

[Jama7301]

I wonder if Menace and Sex Appeal get relegated to Attributes in a future game release as subsets of Charisma instead of their own stats. Get tiers like "Imposing" for a small bump to Menace angles to "Downright Monstrous" for bigger bonuses. In this hypothetical you would keep Menace and Sex Appeal angles but not as skills with direct numbers. They'd be modified charisma.

[BuddyGarner]

I think instead there should be special matchtypes for menace like there is sex appeal and comedy. Maybe menace helps in brawling type matches.

 

Also menace is relative so maybe the for the most menacing person on the roster they get a boost to menace type angles.

[Self]

If anything, I'd give massive penalties to non-menacing workers who try to use Menace, rather than boost Menace. I don't need my Brock Lesnar clone to get 80+ on day one, but if Kelly Kelly or Nick Jackson or James Ellsworth start flexing in a way that is sold as legitimately scary by the people around them, that should die a death in the ratings.

[edenborn]

In past TEW games, I certainly exploited the heck out of Menace and it always felt a little "gamey." So I appreciate the effort to reel it in here with TEW 2020. That said, it *does* feel like the stat got nerfed a bit more than it should. Perhaps there's a happy medium?

[SirMichaelJordan]

If anything, I'd give massive penalties to non-menacing workers who try to use Menace, rather than boost Menace. I don't need my Brock Lesnar clone to get 80+ on day one, but if Kelly Kelly or Nick Jackson or James Ellsworth start flexing in a way that is sold as legitimately scary by the people around them, that should die a death in the ratings.

 

They would score way below what they should be scoring and it would hurt them.

 

Let’s continue the narrative that Kelly Kelly is rated on menace in a angle. Just her standing there looking serious in street clothes or how about MMA gear...That angle would bomb compared to her popularity and would be better off booking her on a program that utilize her strength. Terrible angle but it should definitely generate more interest considering her popularity than a large menacing man standing in the ring with a mask on without any manager or context.

 

There isn’t a right or wrong way to book but the game now encourage smart booking instead of simply booking to a formula.

[praguepride]

That said, it *does* feel like the stat got nerfed a bit more than it should.

 

I am exploiting the hell out of popularity on my guys. Just because it doesn't instantly get in the 90s doesn't mean it's not growing them. First show: with zero pop it got a 20 but gained them 5 pop. Second show, it got a 25 and gained him another 5 pop. Third show it got him a 30 and he ended at 15 pop.

 

I stopped testing it at that point to launch a diary but it's growing him very steadily, especially because my promotion is only 25 pop.

 

No, you can no longer take a complete unknown and have them carry the show but if you book them long term, say 6 months of doing that, they still grow by leaps and bounds compared to any other worker I'm pushing.

 

Menace is still gamey because it bypasses fog of war which is amazing for rookies that have a 45 digit range for their entertainment abilities.