The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[lazorbeak]

IMO, if they could have been, they would have been. I can't imagine Vince willingly passing on those guys.

 

The choices during the Invasion were either 1) buy out current contracts and re-negotiate smaller contracts (DDP, undercard guys), or 2) wait for bloated, stupidly large contracts to run out (Nash, Goldberg, Steiner, etc.) and then bring guys in at a reasonable rate.

 

So it's not so much Vince "willingly passed" as he was unwilling to make a guy like Goldberg receive a higher base pay than 99% of his roster. Also considering they bought the tape library, logos, etc. for under 3 million dollars, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to turn around and inflate that by buying out the stupidly large worker contracts that they avoided.

[juggaloninjalee]

The choices during the Invasion were either 1) buy out current contracts (WCW undercard guys) 2) re-negotiate smaller contracts (DDP), or 3) wait for bloated, stupidly large contracts to run out (Nash, Goldberg, Steiner, etc.) and then bring guys in at a reasonable rate.

 

So it's not so much Vince "willingly passed" as he was unwilling to make a guy like Goldberg receive a higher base pay than 99% of his roster. Also considering they bought the tape library, logos, etc. for under 3 million dollars, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to turn around and inflate that by buying out the stupidly large worker contracts that they avoided.

 

They could have bought out the contracts they did and slowly did an Invasion over the next year or so when peoples contracts ran up. Flair or Bischoff could have led the Invasion then. After the Invasion was underway the nWo could have been brought in to counter the Invasion.

[lazorbeak]

That's a long-term booking problem, not a "why didn't he get those guys" problem. I mean yes, if the Invasion had been some carefully thought out 24 month angle, things would've been better, but obviously that's pretty much the opposite of what happened.

[Candyman]

The choices during the Invasion were either 1) buy out current contracts and re-negotiate smaller contracts (DDP, undercard guys), or 2) wait for bloated, stupidly large contracts to run out (Nash, Goldberg, Steiner, etc.) and then bring guys in at a reasonable rate.

 

So it's not so much Vince "willingly passed" as he was unwilling to make a guy like Goldberg receive a higher base pay than 99% of his roster. Also considering they bought the tape library, logos, etc. for under 3 million dollars, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to turn around and inflate that by buying out the stupidly large worker contracts that they avoided.

 

See, that's the thing. In reality, 1) was never a choice at all. Remember, Vince has a Board of Directors and shareholders to answer to. Even if he wanted to buy out the big contracts, it never would have happened. I'm sure he offered them every penny he could to buy them out, and they said no. Remember, even when some guys took buyouts later(like Goldberg), it was AOL Time Warner paying not the WWF. (hence Goldberg doing a stint in Japan before he came to the WWF)

 

That's all I was saying. If it could've been done, it would've been done. Vince wouldn't have passed on the chance to bring them in if he could.

[ampulator]

See, that's the thing. In reality, 1) was never a choice at all. Remember, Vince has a Board of Directors and shareholders to answer to. Even if he wanted to buy out the big contracts, it never would have happened. I'm sure he offered them every penny he could to buy them out, and they said no. Remember, even when some guys took buyouts later(like Goldberg), it was AOL Time Warner paying not the WWF. (hence Goldberg doing a stint in Japan before he came to the WWF)

 

That's all I was saying. If it could've been done, it would've been done. Vince wouldn't have passed on the chance to bring them in if he could.

I'm not too sure. He was hurting because of the XFL. Despite what I say, and despite the fact that the XFL was a mistake on Vince's part, I didn't blame him for trying... I blamed for HOW he tried to do it. The XFL was not a bad idea, but it was certainly poor executed and overhyped. But the XFL... not a bad ideas their WBF.

 

But coming along with that was the issue of... money. And after losing that much money, he probably didn't feel he could afford those big contracts for WCW. And for your talk on shareholders, he owns a majority of the shares. The others don't mean diddly squat in terms of opinions if he really didn't care. If you own a clear majority, you really can choose to not listen to anyone else.

[GatorBait19]

I'm not too sure. He was hurting because of the XFL. Despite what I say, and despite the fact that the XFL was a mistake on Vince's part, I didn't blame him for trying... I blamed for HOW he tried to do it. The XFL was not a bad idea, but it was certainly poor executed and overhyped. But the XFL... not a bad ideas their WBF.

 

But coming along with that was the issue of... money. And after losing that much money, he probably didn't feel he could afford those big contracts for WCW. And for your talk on shareholders, he owns a majority of the shares. The others don't mean diddly squat in terms of opinions if he really didn't care. If you own a clear majority, you really can choose to not listen to anyone else.

 

yeah I believe the McMahons own like 96% of the voting power and the other 4% is spilt with 1% being stock holders (like hey I want to buy some wwe stock) and the other 3% split between Dunn and others within the company

[Linsolv]

Is it just me or did Cole comment on Swagger's "Gutwrench suplex?" Is 'powerbomb' now a no-no word, or is Cole just that awful at remembering words?

[ampulator]

Suplex is more of a wrestling move...

[Linsolv]

But it's pretty obviously not a suplex. To anyone with eyes.

[Remianen]

See, that's the thing. In reality, 1) was never a choice at all. Remember, Vince has a Board of Directors and shareholders to answer to.

 

Patently false. At no time has Vince ever had to answer to anyone but himself. Go look. The stock you buy in WWE is NON-VOTING. Part of the reason WWE stock will never reach the rarified heights of Google and Berkshire Hathaway is because investors (institutional or otherwise) will never have any real say in how the company is run. Well, that plus the fact their numbers will never reach the levels of a Google or Berkshire. The primary reason they even do analyst calls is for damage control (there are a lot of analysts who believe, rightly or wrongly, that the second W in the company's name stands for 'fail'. Just look at how many of them came out of the woodwork during the Benoit ordeal).

 

No, lazorbeak's right. It was VINCE deciding not to throw good money (i.e. his) after bad (i.e. Turner's). He got the most valuable part of the company (the IP and tape library) while at the same time, being able to stick it to his former rivals, forcing them to keep paying people to do nothing. Win/win.

[ampulator]

Patently false. At no time has Vince ever had to answer to anyone but himself. Go look. The stock you buy in WWE is NON-VOTING. Part of the reason WWE stock will never reach the rarified heights of Google and Berkshire Hathaway is because investors (institutional or otherwise) will never have any real say in how the company is run. Well, that plus the fact their numbers will never reach the levels of a Google or Berkshire. The primary reason they even do analyst calls is for damage control (there are a lot of analysts who believe, rightly or wrongly, that the second W in the company's name stands for 'fail'. Just look at how many of them came out of the woodwork during the Benoit ordeal).

 

No, lazorbeak's right. It was VINCE deciding not to throw good money (i.e. his) after bad (i.e. Turner's). He got the most valuable part of the company (the IP and tape library) while at the same time, being able to stick it to his former rivals, forcing them to keep paying people to do nothing. Win/win.

I agree completely, but I want to emphasize certain things. To be honest, I don't think it was just a vindication issue. If he really wanted those contracts-and I'm pretty sure he didn't-he could have gotten them. It would have cost him dearly, but he just didn't want them.

[lazorbeak]

And it's not like Scott Steiner was going to save up his million dollars and open a successful small business, despite attending a highly educated university. Eventually WCW guys had to bite the bullet and agree to work at a lower base rate with more incentives, something that wouldn't have happened if Vince prematurely brought in a bunch of overpaid, lazy guys who hadn't been relevant in years, if they'd ever been relevant.

[ZMAN]

People say the smart thing would have been to save the storyline for later on when other people's contracts ran out, but honestly I don't blame Vince for jumping right into it. I think anyone else in his position would have done the exact same thing. People forget how fast-pace and exciting wrestling was 10 years ago. I'm pretty sure when the buyout happened, hearts were racing and people wanted to see WWF vs. WCW right away. It was like a massive explosion just popped off and no one was prepared or knew how to contain it. So Vince jumping into the WWF vs. WCW storyline didn't really bother me, I can see how it didn't come off well at first.

 

However, once the storyline shifted into the WCW-ECW Alliance phase, Vinnie had no excuse. That **** was incredible, I don't know how he messed that up. I didn't even care about Sting, Goldberg, Flair or any of those guys at that point. I had forgotten about them completely. IMO, ECW made up for the lack of big WCW names. It was a nice recovery for the storyline, but still failed somehow at the end. I think I blame Stephanie, she really did kill a lot of the momentum when she was made the partial owner.

[JackKnifed72]

People say the smart thing would have been to save the storyline for later on when other people's contracts ran out, but honestly I don't blame Vince for jumping right into it. I think anyone else in his position would have done the exact same thing. People forget how fast-pace and exciting wrestling was 10 years ago. I'm pretty sure when the buyout happened, hearts were racing and people wanted to see WWF vs. WCW right away. It was like a massive explosion just popped off and no one was prepared or knew how to contain it. So Vince jumping into the WWF vs. WCW storyline didn't really bother me, I can see how it didn't come off well at first.

 

However, once the storyline shifted into the WCW-ECW Alliance phase, Vinnie had no excuse. That **** was incredible, I don't know how he messed that up. I didn't even care about Sting, Goldberg, Flair or any of those guys at that point. I had forgotten about them completely. IMO, ECW made up for the lack of big WCW names. It was a nice recovery for the storyline, but still failed somehow at the end. I think I blame Stephanie, she really did kill a lot of the momentum when she was made the partial owner.

 

 

I have to say I agree with the first part...what else could Vince have done at that point but the invasion? As far as paying millions (...and millions) to bring in Steiner, Sting, Goldberg etc...why would Vince do that? Yeah a few of those guys were over but, at the risk of stating the obvious, the WWF won! They won the Monday Night Wars big and had no reason to spend a small fortune on a handful of overpaid talent.

 

Where I disagree was, and maybe I'm in the minority here, but I thought overall the Invasion was really pretty good. And how else was it going to end? Of course the WWF was going to win at Survivor Series!

[Slim Jim]

The way I had planned to run it in a diary that didn't last was to run with a similar initial build up as real life (WCW/ECW alliance up to Survivor Series) except I was going to have the WCW guys look more legit rather than throwing them Austin (though I was going to give them Big Show/The Giant) and some of the ECW guys (Rhino and Raven, in particular) and then for Survivor Series, when the WCW guys were six months or so cheaper, first Sting was going to debut as the final member of Team WCW, and then once Team WWF had won, rather than it being Flair that became Vince's rival, it was going to be Bischoff and at that point a couple more would have been brought in (Steiner and Goldberg, to name two) and then a little while later, probably about Rumble time, the NWO hits town, and it builds to a climax at Wrestlemania.

 

That way, there's immediate Invasion, you get to build a couple of new stars from the initial WCW/ECW lot, you get the big names revitalising the Invasion and it culminates at the biggest show of the year. Also, as another fall-out from the Invasion, I'd have kept Starrcade, and used it as the sixth 'big' PPV in the six-big-six-small system I pretty much always implement (Rumble-Mania-KOTR-SSlam-Starrcade-SSeries) with every other month being a showpiece event.

[Self]

Ah, Tough Enough. I liked seeing Luke & Jeremiah turn on each other a little bit, but Luke really doesn't come off well responding to criticism from Stone Cold. Never has a good answer for him.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

I have to say I agree with the first part...what else could Vince have done at that point but the invasion? As far as paying millions (...and millions) to bring in Steiner, Sting, Goldberg etc...why would Vince do that? Yeah a few of those guys were over but, at the risk of stating the obvious, the WWF won! They won the Monday Night Wars big and had no reason to spend a small fortune on a handful of overpaid talent.

 

Where I disagree was, and maybe I'm in the minority here, but I thought overall the Invasion was really pretty good. And how else was it going to end? Of course the WWF was going to win at Survivor Series!

 

I liked the Invasion too. But then again I was a 10 year old mark at the time, pretty much anything would have been gold for me I'd guess.

[eayragt]

I'm a sad panda. Finally got around to watching Over the Limit. Highlight was Kane already being angry at the Rapture not happening comment, finally beating his Kanenites promo with Rock as his funniest ever promo... and no-one's mentioned it!?!

 

And WWE, I take it back. You are giving Christian the chance to have awesome matches with someone who's matches normally bore me to death. Instead of one PPV title defence, you've let Christian prove how great he is with his title loss and PPV rematch. Now I want to see him still in the Main Event in six months time. Please.

[ampulator]

I'm a sad panda. Finally got around to watching Over the Limit. Highlight was Kane already being angry at the Rapture not happening comment, finally beating his Kanenites promo with Rock as his funniest ever promo... and no-one's mentioned it!?!

 

And WWE, I take it back. You are giving Christian the chance to have awesome matches with someone who's matches normally bore me to death. Instead of one PPV title defence, you've let Christian prove how great he is with his title loss and PPV rematch. Now I want to see him still in the Main Event in six months time. Please.

You are two months late for April Fools, dude.

[MrOnu]

Finally got around the last Raw and I have to say that I'm impressed by the reaction Alex Riley got. Sure, he's going against one of the hottest heel, it guarantees a minimal face pop, but so far people really want him to hurt Miz. If they handle the feud correctly, I believe they could have a decently over Riley hoovering in the midcard for the foresable future. The hard part would obviously be the after-Miz part of that deal.

 

Decent way to get around Kong pregnancy storyline wise. It breaks kayfabe, some people are not going to like it, but if they make sure we don't forget her, they might have a moderately over face to work with in a year. Not to mention that meanwhile, they could use that whole thing to promote their corporate image (we treat our women well, we encourage them to have a family, etc.).

[Rone Rivendale]

I have been watching wrestling since 1985. There have been two moments in my viewing history that made me go HOLY ****.

 

The 1st was Kevin Nash throwing Rey Mysterio Jr into the trailer during the first days of the original NWO. It was the first time since I was little and found out that wrestling was 'fake' that I actually 'marked out' at something. I just could not believe what Hall and Nash were doing. And of course Hogan turning heel and joining the NWO was just insane.

 

The 2nd was the day that Shane McMahon announced that he had bought WCW out from Vince's nose. It was the 1st time I can remember calling up all my friends and being like "Are you watching this?!"

 

Yeah, the whole Invasion thing turned out to be crap. But it sure as heck had the potenital to be bigger than anything that came before it.

[ZMAN]

Where I disagree was, and maybe I'm in the minority here, but I thought overall the Invasion was really pretty good. And how else was it going to end? Of course the WWF was going to win at Survivor Series!

 

Well, IIRC, the idea was supposed to be that this would be the start of the whole brand split biz, with WCW taking Smackdown's Thursday night spot, and WWF remaining on Monday nights. So yeah, it should have ended with WWF winning, but at the same time not squashing WCW/ECW. That way they could be taken serious as a separate brand. But that didn't happen, I guess because Vince didn't like the idea of there being a non-WWF show, even though he gave ECW it's own show like 4 years later...

 

I'll agree that the Invasion did have a lot of good moments though, for sure. Probably some of the best comedy segments ever done in WWE.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Well, IIRC, the idea was supposed to be that this would be the start of the whole brand split biz, with WCW taking Smackdown's Thursday night spot, and WWF remaining on Monday nights. So yeah, it should have ended with WWF winning, but at the same time not squashing WCW/ECW. That way they could be taken serious as a separate brand. But that didn't happen, I guess because Vince didn't like the idea of there being a non-WWF show, even though he gave ECW it's own show like 4 years later...

 

I'll agree that the Invasion did have a lot of good moments though, for sure. Probably some of the best comedy segments ever done in WWE.

 

I think it was he wanted to keep WCW on the air from March but he couldn't get a slot that worked and he abandoned the idea and went ahead with what he did.

[bigtplaystew]

The invasion was right around when I stopped watching wrestling for a little while. I felt like they forced too many heel turns with that. And turning Stone Cold in the way they did it was just stupid. It was a poor man's NWO angle to me.

 

I'd been a net smark for years at that point and I got fed up with everything. All the smarks pretending to know what was going on and what was supposed to happen. I just had to step away from it for awhile.

 

I still watched wrestlemanias with my buddies and stuff but I had no interest in watching it weekly.

 

I got back into it a few years ago again first through ring of honor, then I started watching WWE pretty regularly and TNA. Now I'm back hooked into wrestling again but I try to stay away from the sites and the podcasts. Those places are full of "Wrestling fans" who actually hate wrestling but for some reason watch it just to make themselves mad.

 

Can't take it too seriously. I just like to watch it for the fun stuff. I wish they had more crazy characters over the "real" characters but whatever. I watch every week and still enjoy going to events.

[Fantabulous]

The WWF-ized version of Nitro was supposed to start in June of 2001; they even announced a provisional date. But TNN didn't want another wrestling show and none of the other networks Vince could go to wanted it, so Vince went with the idea of turning Smackdown into the the WCW show instead. Of course, the infamous Booker T/Buff Bagwell match killed that.