Wherein We Argue Over Numbers

[DreamGoddessLindsey]

Let's just all admit there's no proper way to sim WWE or its workers in the current TEW. Think about it.

 

Most of the workers in WWE aren't anywhere near as over as they'd need to be to carry a Global promotion, and the TV ratings are nowhere near the level a Global promotion's TV ratings would be at. To say WWE is anywhere near B right now would mean that they were literally at A* ten years ago. Yet the numbers just don't add up no matter how you look at them.

 

Hell, based on how things are in the real world, TNA would have to be placed at National, and they're nowhere near where WCW was when it died way back when. If TNA are National, again, WWE would have to be literally A* everywhere, and that's just not realistic, the numbers just don't add up.

 

I simply don't think the current real world can be reflected by the game in any realistic way. The only thing that can be done is fake it.

[Genadi]

I'm confused why it's "sad" to use something Adam Ryland developed on a 100 point scale called "charisma" as supporting evidence of the three stats it turned into?

 

Because it's apples and oranges, the game's are entirely different beasts.

 

While a lot of EWR comparisons don't really hold up, charisma is one of the easiest to compare. Now we have three stats on a 100 scale instead of 1: otherwise, what has changed?

 

Like I said above, the game has changed... completely. The fact that you pointed out the range of new stats that have evolved and then asked what has changed is confusing.

 

Was 2002 Adam so far off the mark that using his own interpretation of the data is no good?

 

If it was TEW '04 even it'd be alot more relevant, the game turned into something entirely different with that edition.

 

No, it's a road map. Eight years ago, Adam Ryland said "This is how real life dudes should stack up in comparison to one another." If I'm making a mod, it's probably useful to put at least a little consideration into stats put together by the guy who made the game, even if I would have to filter that information through the mechanics of another game.

 

I explained why it's not a good "road map" above. If I'm making a mod... oh wait I have and I did consider, in fact even consulted the guy who made this game... without having to filter that information through the mechanics of an 8 year old game which is completely different.

 

I simply don't think the current real world can be reflected by the game in any realistic way. The only thing that can be done is fake it.

 

I disagree strongly.

[LoganRodzen]

I think what most people get confused about when it comes to TNA is that they're not very popular. Period. Nobody watches their shows - ratings speak for themselves. A 0.5 is very bad for prime time TV. I can't imagine what the PPV buys are like.

 

TNA in TEW needs a big bank account, B+ popularity in the South East, and about D+ (C- maybe in some areas) everywhere else in the US. The attendance they get speaks for itself. That's the reality.

 

I think what can't be simulated in TEW is the production values that TNA has that makes them look like they're on the same level as WWE. They certainly aren't even close though.

[lazorbeak]

Let's just all admit there's no proper way to sim WWE or its workers in the current TEW. Think about it.

 

Most of the workers in WWE aren't anywhere near as over as they'd need to be to carry a Global promotion, and the TV ratings are nowhere near the level a Global promotion's TV ratings would be at. To say WWE is anywhere near B right now would mean that they were literally at A* ten years ago. Yet the numbers just don't add up no matter how you look at them.

 

Not true. Look at the economy and the industry ten years ago compared to today. And since WWE is a global company and is "carried" by a number of guys, I don't see why it's impossible for that to be represented in the data?

 

Hell, based on how things are in the real world, TNA would have to be placed at National, and they're nowhere near where WCW was when it died way back when.

 

This conversation's been had elsewhere, but TNA is nowhere near national for TEW purposes. They can't even afford to run their TV show outside the impact zone! Before Lockdown, they had run 5 straight ppvs at the Impact Zone in front of 1,000 fans. For comparison, that makes them significantly smaller than USPW in the Southeast. So it's not all that impossible to make a real world mod, especially with the changes in how cult feds run added to TEW 10.

 

I think what most people get confused about when it comes to TNA is that they're not very popular. Period. Nobody watches their shows - ratings speak for themselves. A 0.5 is very bad for prime time TV. I can't imagine what the PPV buys are like.

 

TNA in TEW needs a big bank account, B+ popularity in the South East, and about D+ (C- maybe in some areas) everywhere else in the US. The attendance they get speaks for itself. That's the reality.

 

Not even that high. Again, TNA is worse at drawing an audience than USPW. Also how weird is it that Sam Strong took over USPW in what, 2007? Art imitating life, that.

[lazorbeak]

Because it's apples and oranges, the game's are entirely different beasts.

 

Like I said above, the game has changed... completely. The fact that you pointed out the range of new stats that have evolved and then asked what has changed is confusing.

 

I guess I could understand your position if I was saying definitively that what Adam said in EWR should be gospel, but since that's not what I'm doing, I don't really see the issue. It really isn't apples and oranges, charisma functions the same way: instead of one stat that incorporated acting and mic skills on a 100 scale, it's 3 stats that work together on a 100 scale in a nearly identical way. So it's not particularly far-fetched to use that 1 stat on a 100 scale as a ballpark figure for where your weighted average for the 3 stats need to be. And it shouldn't be the only source, either.

 

Again, it's not a ticky-box and it's on the same scale, so I don't see how it's not useful as supporting data. Does it work in every case? Absolutely not. Does it give you supporting information that can help create baselines? I really don't see why not. Did TEW add lots of wrinkles to the basic "brawling, speed, technical, charisma" format? Absolutely. But a lot of it is adding complexity on top of an existing system, so that stripped down system can still be helpful in finding out where workers fit into the world.

 

 

I explained why it's not a good "road map" above. If I'm making a mod... oh wait I have and I did consider, in fact even consulted the guy who made this game... without having to filter that information through the mechanics of an 8 year old game which is completely different.

 

Again, I'm not saying you should "filter" information through an 8 year old game, but is the 8 year old game all that different in the way it measures core stats? Obviously there's hundreds if not thousands of improvements but the basic skeleton isn't "completely different." Is there a reason Kurt Angle's 95 in technical skills in EWR shouldn't convert to a 95 weighted average in mat, chain, and submission wrestling? The top row stats and entertainment skills are really the only skills that EWR can help with, but why ignore supporting data that's already been weighted by someone that created the current game?

[Genadi]

I guess I could understand your position if I was saying definitively that what Adam said in EWR should be gospel, but since that's not what I'm doing, I don't really see the issue. It really isn't apples and oranges, charisma functions the same way: instead of one stat that incorporated acting and mic skills on a 100 scale, it's 3 stats that work together on a 100 scale in a nearly identical way. So it's not particularly far-fetched to use that 1 stat on a 100 scale as a ballpark figure for where your weighted average for the 3 stats need to be. And it shouldn't be the only source, either.

 

Again, it's not a ticky-box and it's on the same scale, so I don't see how it's not useful as supporting data. Does it work in every case? Absolutely not. Does it give you supporting information that can help create baselines? I really don't see why not.

 

Again I appologise I need to be clearer in my posts...

 

Let's look at the entertainment stats in EWR. We have Charisma which you're saying was all 3 current ent. stats combined. I don't think it was, here are a few more from EWR...

 

Superstar Look: If this is set to true, the worker has more of a chance of getting over, as they have the look of a superstar (such as The Rock or Chris Jericho).

I think Charisma was included in this stat, surely Jericho as an example isn't Superstar Quality as there are a whole bunch of wrestlers who had/have a better look then him.

 

Fonz Factor: If this is true, the worker has a natural charisma. It is named that because the worker would make The Fonz (from Happy Days) look uncool.

 

Both of those stats were tickboxes which I'm not sure how you'd convert to todays game.

 

 

Did TEW add lots of wrinkles to the basic "brawling, speed, technical, charisma" format? Absolutely. But a lot of it is adding complexity on top of an existing system, so that stripped down system can still be helpful in finding out where workers fit into the world.

 

I think that's where we disagree the most. I don't think the TEW series added complexity on top of an exsisting system. I think it created a whole new game and in doing so re-invented the system, which is why I think it's silly to use the old system as any kind of indication as to where stats should be now. The best example I can make is in EWR a 96%+ (A*) match was fairly common, as the series has developed they have become rare, a huge difference based around how stats are set and used.

[lazorbeak]

Again I appologise I need to be clearer in my posts...

 

Let's look at the entertainment stats in EWR. We have Charisma which you're saying was all 3 current ent. stats combined. I don't think it was, here are a few more from EWR...

 

 

I think Charisma was included in this stat, surely Jericho as an example isn't Superstar Quality as there are a whole bunch of wrestlers who had/have a better look then him.

 

Both of those stats were tickboxes which I'm not sure how you'd convert to todays game.

 

Yes, I have said twice already that EWR's tickboxes don't really cross over into game stats, so naturally I agree that it's tough to convert them, especially the "fonz factor" which had an affect on marketability and the ability to portray cool gimmicks. But yeah, Jericho was an example of "star quality" in its early form as "superstar look." Maybe you didn't play a lot of EWR, but the way charisma worked is if you had a guy cutting a promo or participating in an angle, the game would weigh the worker's overness against their charisma and then add in some other variables like the overness of the target of the promo or the other person in the angle, and create a range of possible outcomes based on that formula. In TEW, the entertainment skills function almost exactly the same way in angles, but unlike EWR, charisma also gives matches a boost. This change really wouldn't effect the raw numbers on the 100 scale at all though. Again, that's not all that different.

 

 

 

I think that's where we disagree the most. I don't think the TEW series added complexity on top of an exsisting system. I think it created a whole new game and in doing so re-invented the system, which is why I think it's silly to use the old system as any kind of indication as to where stats should be now. The best example I can make is in EWR a 96%+ (A*) match was fairly common, as the series has developed they have become rare, a huge difference based around how stats are set and used.

 

 

I agree that we disagree. Again, maybe you weren't familiar with EWR but look at the layouts on the worker data. "Rumble," "technical," and "flying" next to "entertainment" are all evolutions of EWR's system of brawling, speed, technical, and charisma. All on a 100 point scale. Tommy Cornell has an 89 in brawling, a 94 in chain, and a 95 in charisma. Kurt Angle has a 90 in brawl, a 92 in technical, and a 95 in charisma. Both are world-class workers and probably the top workers in the default data.

 

The example you cite may be true but that has far more to do with the layers added on top of the skeleton of guys fake fighting each other. Again, like I already said once, products, physical skills, performance skills, and many other features didn't exist in EWR, so EWR doesn't give any guidelines for anything beyond top row stats and entertainment skills, but it does give pretty useful numbers for those skills.

[Genadi]

No I didn't play much EWR

 

In TEW, the entertainment skills function almost exactly the same way in angles, but unlike EWR, charisma also gives matches a boost.

 

I'm not sure how you're so certain of that?

 

I explained how they're different games with different use of stats. There's not much else to add so your argument regarding "Again, that's not all that different" " I can't really take seriously because I explained how and why they are very different. If you don't think so nps, I'm glad you agree to agreeing to disagree lol.

[lazorbeak]

I explained how they're different games with different use of stats. There's not much else to add so your argument regarding "Again, that's not all that different" " I can't really take seriously because I explained how and why they are very different. If you don't think so nps, I'm glad you agree to agreeing to disagree lol.

 

And I've explained how stats that serve the same purpose on the same scale are useful as supplemental material, and I'm still not sure why they wouldn't be. Again, Kurt Angle and Tommy Cornell's brawl, technical and charisma stats are within two points of each other on a 100 point scale. Not every comparison is going to be that close, but I don't understand dismissing the stats out of hand. It's not "sad" to say "hey he has a 95 for charisma maybe his charisma stat should be somewhere close to a 95." In fact, that sounds like a pretty reasonable inference.

[ampulator]

I'm a huge Kurt Angle fan. But there's one chance in hell he's anything more than B+ in any of his entertainment skills. A's and A* are reserved for the Rock and Steve Austin, and Kurt Angle is definitely step below either.

[Genadi]

And I've explained how stats that serve the same purpose on the same scale are useful as supplemental material, and I'm still not sure why they wouldn't be. Again, Kurt Angle and Tommy Cornell's brawl, technical and charisma stats are within two points of each other on a 100 point scale...

 

I think that's where we disagree the most. I don't think the TEW series added complexity on top of an exsisting system. I think it created a whole new game and in doing so re-invented the system, which is why I think it's silly to use the old system as any kind of indication as to where stats should be now. The best example I can make is in EWR a 96%+ (A*) match was fairly common, as the series has developed they have become rare, a huge difference based around how stats are set and used.

 

Let's not hijack this thread with repetitiveness

 

 

Edit - Just my opinion, current day....

 

John Cena

Mic Skills B+

Charisma A

Acting B+

 

Randy Orton

Mic Skills B-

Charisma B

Acting B+

[Genadi]

Edit - Sorry not sure how I double posted

[Irish Wolf]

I think there's going to be an overall problem determining the Mic skills of a lot of workers for WWE nowadays. That problem is WWE over scripts everything everyone says. No one is allowed to let go and really bring a great promo like The Rock or Austin did. Hell even the announce team is limited in what they say. Matt Stryker who I used to think is hilariously funny has a mic in his ear and he's told what to say on shows, although that's the most extreme example, its indicative of how WWE works currently. Cena used to have a lot more freedom, they used to just let him go and he can be funny and intense but his promos now are just a shell of their former selves and its not because he got worse at knowing what to say,

[lazorbeak]

I'm a huge Kurt Angle fan. But there's one chance in hell he's anything more than B+ in any of his entertainment skills. A's and A* are reserved for the Rock and Steve Austin, and Kurt Angle is definitely step below either.

 

My question is: why is that? Why would you assume that A's are reserved for "The Rock and Steve Austin"? There's 15 guys and 2 girls that start the default data off with an A or better in charisma. Shouldn't the real world show a similar balance?

 

And again, this compounds when you start going down the list. Take Genadi's 1997 mod, for instance, a mod that gives only Austin and Hogan over a 90 for charisma: the percentage of workers in all of North America with a 90 or above for charisma is .68%, while in the C-Verse the percentage is 1.75%. This doesn't seem like that big a deal but by the time you get to workers with an 80 or better the difference is 8.2% of the C-Verse vs. 4.78% of the real world. That's the difference between 47 workers and 21 workers. Even if we multiplied to get the same number of workers in the mod, that would still only take us up to 25. Even if we assume that makes sense as a reflection of reality at that time, it means we have one, maybe two guys with an 80 in charisma not already signed to one of the big promotions which gives you far less options if you're playing as a small promotion.

 

So I don't really understand reserving A's for only the very few workers at the top. Should A's in the C-verse not be given to anyone not named Christian Faith, Tommy Cornell, or Angry Gilmore? If so, we need to go back and fix the data that gives rookies like Gino Montero, a guy that can't cut a promo like Remmy Skye, or a midcarder like Marc DuBois a 90 or above. Clearly this error in the data needs to be corrected!

[ampulator]

The problem is... the C-Verse is full of talented talkers. There's no doubt about it. Tinker with it, as I have, you can get a promotion full of talkers.

 

In real life, not that many people have that level. Seriously, as a huge Kurt Angle fan, he always was great, but never really close the to Rock in terms of the mic. The only people I would rate high as the Rock are (maybe): Paul Heyman, Jim Cornette, Vince McMahon, Eric Bischoff, Jake Roberts, and Chris Jericho. These people absolutely OWN on the mic. Kurt's great, but he's nowhere near A. Can he be an A? Yes. is he one? No.

Besides, a B+ is hardly embarassing or screwy grade.

 

That being said, although there is a lot less good talkers in real life when compared to the c-verse, there is a lot less worse ones these days, either. Most people fall in the C to B range, with some drifting into the D range. Hell, anything E range or less is really like murdering a promo.

[Prime Elephant]

Not gonna say Angle is as good on the mic as the Rock, but he is much more versatile. He's done comedy promos, deranged promos, pure wrestler promos, worked great as a face or heel, "my opponent is ridiculous/burial" promos and promos that actually build matches and make his opponent a credible threat. His only weakness is that he doesn't tell a "story" with his promos as well as say Heyman or even Triple H.

 

I think his dramatic range gives him a strong case for being an A. I would make the same case for Eddie Guerrero. I'd say the Rock is an A* and Angle is a low A. And yes, I agree that there are only about 10 people who are worthy of that grade in the real world.

[shawn michaels]

If a few mod makers gathered forces in irder to create a mod, and made a compromise about certain skills, and forgot their biases, i'm sure we could find a good RW mod that could actually get close to make use of the entire game mechanics. Heck, we could actually go beyond close. Sure, some things would have to be different from real life, cause as we already agreed, the RW situation is not logical at the moment,but i'm sure it can be done.

[LoganRodzen]

I think Gino Montero is Eddie Guerrero.

[shamelessposer]

If a few mod makers gathered forces in irder to create a mod, and made a compromise about certain skills, and forgot their biases, i'm sure we could find a good RW mod that could actually get close to make use of the entire game mechanics. Heck, we could actually go beyond close. Sure, some things would have to be different from real life, cause as we already agreed, the RW situation is not logical at the moment,but i'm sure it can be done.

 

I think this thread has done a fine job of demonstrating that there's no such thing as a "real world mod." Genadi's 2002 mod is probably the most true-to-life historical scenario available at the moment, and even he gave Scott Steiner a B+ in Psychology.

[lazorbeak]

I think his dramatic range gives him a strong case for being an A. I would make the same case for Eddie Guerrero. I'd say the Rock is an A* and Angle is a low A. And yes, I agree that there are only about 10 people who are worthy of that grade in the real world.

 

That's at least closer to the 17 we have in the C-Verse.

[Master Gilmore]

I'm not sure if this is particularly what the debate was about, but I've always assumed that the EWR stats can't be directly converted to the TEW stats. It seems a lot easier for a guy to reach 100 charisma in EWR than to reach 100 in any entertainment stat in TEW. As for Brawl\Technical\Flying, it seems much easier for a guy to get a 0 in EWR than in TEW. In EWR, a 0 seems to mean that a guy is very bad at those areas, but in TEW, it seems to mean that a guy is absolutely horrible.

[lazorbeak]

I'm not sure if this is particularly what the debate was about, but I've always assumed that the EWR stats can't be directly converted to the TEW stats. It seems a lot easier for a guy to reach 100 charisma in EWR than to reach 100 in any entertainment stat in TEW. As for Brawl\Technical\Flying, it seems much easier for a guy to get a 0 in EWR than in TEW. In EWR, a 0 seems to mean that a guy is very bad at those areas, but in TEW, it seems to mean that a guy is absolutely horrible.

 

Since it was impossible for a guy to improve his charisma to 100 in EWR, that's not strictly true.

 

And my argument has never been direct conversion, but if a guy's "brawl" stat was 60 in an EWR game set in 2002, there's a good chance his "brawling" stat in TEW is in the 55-65 range. Both stats serve the same purpose on the same scale in the same way: how good is the worker at being in brawling type matches? Obviously there's a lot more than just pure skill stats in TEW, but the "core" stats aren't all that different.

[Comradebot]

Not gonna say Angle is as good on the mic as the Rock, but he is much more versatile. He's done comedy promos, deranged promos, pure wrestler promos, worked great as a face or heel, "my opponent is ridiculous/burial" promos and promos that actually build matches and make his opponent a credible threat. His only weakness is that he doesn't tell a "story" with his promos as well as say Heyman or even Triple H.

 

I think his dramatic range gives him a strong case for being an A. I would make the same case for Eddie Guerrero. I'd say the Rock is an A* and Angle is a low A. And yes, I agree that there are only about 10 people who are worthy of that grade in the real world.

 

Wouldn't this, then fall under his performance stats for the gimmicks he can work/how good of a face or heel he is? I mean, isn't that the definition?

[ampulator]

Yep.

[Remianen]

If a few mod makers gathered forces in irder to create a mod, and made a compromise about certain skills, and forgot their biases, i'm sure we could find a good RW mod that could actually get close to make use of the entire game mechanics. Heck, we could actually go beyond close. Sure, some things would have to be different from real life, cause as we already agreed, the RW situation is not logical at the moment,but i'm sure it can be done.

 

Man, that's sure a whole lotta 'ifs'.