TEW2020 Discussion Thread

[K-Nection]

<p>One issue I have with the newest announcement is I don't know if something works until I've fittled with it. Every company I've ever set up in a Road to Glory game has been a widely customized product. It never fit into a box because I hire my roster first and then go back and alter my product to cater to that roster. Once everyone auto pushes correctly I then have to comb through and set custom match types because standard matches always get dinged for "not intensive enough" or "match was too intensive".</p><p> </p><p>

I get the sentiment of wanting to streamline the game but taking away the ability to tighten down all the screws seems a bit off to me. I know we can open up the suggestion forum to see if we can get an Adam approved patched in product but that in itself seems restrictive to me as well.</p><p> </p><p>

What if I find something that works personally for me but wouldn't work for a majority of the player base so Adam decides to not patch it in. I feel like we need the ability add in our own custom products as well.</p>

[Markw]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I don't see much benefit to that system as you'd effectively be getting the worst of both worlds - it's worse than TEW2016's system as you'd have a limited number of slots, and it's worse than TEW2020 as you'd be losing one of the primary advantages of the new system in that you wouldn't be able have hand-crafted, unique effects to model specific real world products if it's moddable.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><p> Ah okay fair enough - didn't realise you'd have to have a capped number of products or that there wouldn't be a way to manage those effects within the editor. Without realising that it would restrict things in that way, I thought it would be a happy medium of having the freedom to create new products or to just really quickly select from the pre-defined list that would come with the data. I quite liked the old system but interested to see the benefits of the new version in action.</p>

[drhockey30066]

man getting very hyped for this

[Hive]

I've never been a fan of micromanagement just for the sake of having micromanagement. For the vast majority of players, being able to tinker with products as detailed as previously possible probably doesn't really add much to the gaming experience. Heck, for many of the people complaining, I bet it's about wanting to be able to do it <em>because they can</em> - not so much because they need it for their gaming experiences.

[southside_hitmen]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>One or more for each "name" real world company and then a sizeable selection of general types. I don't know how many that will end up as we haven't opened the suggestion thread yet.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Thanks for your response, I really appreciate it.</p><p> </p><p> Again, I like the idea of having more pre-sets and having them easier to work with to setup your product. The core & current product idea is great, as well as being able to move towards a new product and it having an effect that you can see. Both of those are welcome additions.</p><p> </p><p> Match/Angle focus is awesome too, and the changes to the women's roster size I'm excited for.</p><p> </p><p> However, there is 6^12 combinations of products we can make now just in the appeal section. That's 2,176,782,336 types we could dream up. Obviously, not all of those are viable, but even if 1/10,000th of 1% (that's 0.0001%) of them ARE viable, that's still 2,176 different pre-sets you would need to set and/or patch in.</p><p> </p><p> Not only does that seem like it creates a lot more work for you that will take away from other things you could do on the game while also limiting players to stock products. There is no way everyone (even collectively) will be able to dream up EVERY product they ever want to play with AND be willing to put it into a suggestions thread.</p><p> </p><p> There is going to be people who want THEIR product in the game that is only important to them, which they can do now in 2016 but might not make the cut if they missed the suggestions thread or don't know they can be patched in. There are plenty of people who don't visit the forum regularly (if at all) any more and will never know they need to "request" that their product gets put in.</p><p> </p><p> It's also entirely reasonable that 2 people would look at a real life company differently in terms of settings (i.e. how I see NJPW might be different than how you see it).</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>1 - It's significantly faster to find the right product in TEW2020 than it is to build one using TEW2016.<p> </p><p> 2 - Finding the right product does not take long. Especially for real world companies, we're talking seconds.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Again, let me commend you as it seems like a big focus of 2020 is simplifying the user interface/experience when possible, which is awesome.</p><p> </p><p> I'm totally on board with streamlining when applicable, but one of the things that gives TEW it's replay-ability is the ability to tweak, create, and fiddle with all of this stuff under the hood. One of the reasons freestyle angles was universally well received in 2016 is that people could use the old stock angles if they wanted, but if something didn't fit perfectly they could make their own.</p><p> </p><p> It feels like the issue 2020 is trying to solve with products could be done at the UI/UX level instead possibly? Making "default" product selection easier and giving the user the option to "go custom". A simple selection screen not unlike the match or angle screen with the opportunity to dive deeper if you want.</p><p> </p><p> This pattern I just described is true of how the game handles angles, matches, gimmicks, etc... Have a bunch of options, but still allow the user to customize if they want.</p><p> </p><p> I want to re-iterate that I'm not complaining for complaining sake here. Products do vary, even slightly, which makes them target a little different kind of worker than ones that look similar in other areas. Trying to replicate those little nuances is what makes promotions unique and enriches the user experience. It's what makes me watch a few shows when adding a promotion for Real World Chronicles to try and have those nuances in when someone is playing it.</p><p> </p><p> Again, I'm pumped about a bunch of the changes even within this dev journal entry, but taking the ability to customize away seems like 2020 is treating the symptom of a poor UI on the products page and trying to solve it at the database level.</p><p> </p><p> I've said my piece on it, as it is one of the things I most enjoy about TEW (as weird as it sounds). I'm not trying to come off as negative about the game as a whole, so please don't take it that way. I do trust you will make an awesome game like always and I'll continue to support it.</p>

[Teh_Showtime]

<p>I would (personally) fight for deeper owner/booker personality/styles of management to replicate those slight differences. Gedo’s take on Japanese wrestling is definitely different from Akiyama’s, but at the core it’s the bookers molding the company into their own variation of the product. They push different types of wrestler, so the on screen product differs but the barebones of it all is extremely similar. I think it being easier to understand upfront via simplified products is definitely a good thing if that variance can be replicated elsewhere, especially when as of now people taking over companies don’t really change a product like they probably would in real life.</p><p> </p><p>

I think of the products as a toolbox and the people running the company gets to use those tools how they see fit.</p>

[Adam Ryland]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="southside_hitmen" data-cite="southside_hitmen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>However, there is 6^12 combinations of products we can make now just in the appeal section. That's 2,176,782,336 types we could dream up. Obviously, not all of those are viable, but even if 1/10,000th of 1% (that's 0.0001%) of them ARE viable, that's still 2,176 different pre-sets you would need to set and/or patch in.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I understand where you're coming from, and I'm sorry you're so upset about this, but I think the vast, vast majority of players couldn't care less if there's 2,000+ products. They're not in the least bit interested in the theoretical, they want practical results - does the game allow them to model WWE well, NJPW well, AEW well, and so on. (And for fantasy mod players, it's the ability to do all the "standard" products, a lot of variations, and a few offbeat / outlandish versions.)</p><p> </p><p> TEW2020 does that, does it significantly better than previous games, and makes it a million times more intuitive in the process. Sacrificing a lot of theoretical products that have never and would never be used is a drawback, yes, but we're talking about a very minor negative for a very big positive for most users.</p>

[Historian]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I would (personally) fight for deeper owner/booker personality/styles of management to replicate those slight differences. Gedo’s take on Japanese wrestling is definitely different from Akiyama’s, but at the core it’s the bookers molding the company into their own variation of the product. They push different types of wrestler, so the on screen product differs but the barebones of it all is extremely similar. I think it being easier to understand upfront via simplified products is definitely a good thing if that variance can be replicated elsewhere, especially when as of now people taking over companies don’t really change a product like they probably would in real life.<p> </p><p> I think of the products as a toolbox and the people running the company gets to use those tools how they see fit.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I was trying to find a way to say exactly this -- but you captured it both before and better than I could. I think, at their core, each promotion has its identity -- and the bookers make the tweaks to fit their style. So if I'm a promoter and I want to run a traditional, old school promotion [like an MAW] I can, but then if I hire say, Shane Sneer to book, he's going to keep it traditional and old school, but he might introduce more blood-and-guts southern style old school 'rasslin'. I think this could be a great way to put more emphasis on who the booker is. Dusty Rhodes was a fundamentally different booker than Ole Anderson, though the base product would be defined as pretty much the same.</p>

[hellshock70]

Just a random thought... I would love to see the ability to do a one (or two) off show in areas that aren't included like WWE does in the Middle East or a small tour in China and/or South America even if it's not a full customizable region like the new India

[southside_hitmen]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I understand where you're coming from, and I'm sorry you're so upset about this, but I think the vast, vast majority of players couldn't care less if there's 2,000+ products. They're not in the least bit interested in the theoretical, they want practical results - does the game allow them to model WWE well, NJPW well, AEW well, and so on. (And for fantasy mod players, it's the ability to do all the "standard" products, a lot of variations, and a few offbeat / outlandish versions.)<p> </p><p> TEW2020 does that, does it significantly better than previous games, and makes it a million times more intuitive in the process. Sacrificing a lot of theoretical products that have never and would never be used is a drawback, yes, but we're talking about a very minor negative for a very big positive for most users.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I get it. I also know there is likely a ton more you haven't said yet about the new "depth" of the product system that will help make it clearer. I'm excited to learn more about it in upcoming entries.</p><p> </p><p> I'm simply pointing out that to ask everyone to think up any product they would want to use AND login to the forum AND post in the thread is a big ask for your player base, when a lot of them probably don't even know that they have the option to do so.</p><p> </p><p> When everything about the game is super-customizable, and then it is announced that some of that is going away, for the main way the game differentiates how companies behave it's hard not to see it as a homogenizing of some of the things that makes promotions unique.</p><p> BJW today is not the same as early 90's FMW. Stardom isn't the same as Sendai Girls. NOAH is different than NJPW. I'm worried about some of that uniqueness that we can show in 2016 is being lost is all. Looks like I'll be contributing heavily to that suggestions thread <img alt=":)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p><p> </p><p> I love the thought of the things you can't say yet as to the depth of the new product system and all that. It sounds like the AI has seen a significant improvement in how companies behave which is awesome.</p><p> </p><p> Like I said I'll continue to support it with my wallet.</p>

[K-Nection]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="southside_hitmen" data-cite="southside_hitmen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> </p><p> I'm simply pointing out that to ask everyone to think up any product they would want to use AND login to the forum AND post in the thread is a big ask for your player base, when a lot of them probably don't even know that they have the option to do so.</p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> How about an in game product feedback button? It still doesn't settle my insecurities about the feature but it certainly might address the scenario you placed here.</p>

[Kingster]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>That really wouldn't be the case. Outside-the-box products are where they don't make any sense, like having a Pure - Mainstream - Daredevil company. </div></blockquote><p> Wouldn't that be what the VWA is, though?</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>One or more for each "name" real world company and then a sizeable selection of general types. I don't know how many that will end up as we haven't opened the suggestion thread yet.</div></blockquote><p> Does this mean that the player will know the corresponding real world company (if there is one) for each product? As a Cornellverse player I'd really love that because sometimes I'm just looking to play a company that comes closest to a specific real world company and I'm not always sure which one to pick. So, it would be nice to have a description of the product alongside with a real-world example.</p><p> </p><p> Also, another question if I may: Does the player still have to book according to match/angle ratios? And if so, are these specifically linked to the product or could I still run (in theory) 50 % matches for a "wrestling as a sport" promotion or 100 % matches for a soap-opera promotion?</p>

[Adam Ryland]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="southside_hitmen" data-cite="southside_hitmen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>BJW today is not the same as early 90's FMW. Stardom isn't the same as Sendai Girls. NOAH is different than NJPW. I'm worried about some of that uniqueness that we can show in 2016 is being lost is all.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I think you may have misunderstood. There will be a product that is <em>literally</em> to model NOAH. There will be a product that is <em>literally</em> to model NJPW. Worrying that NOAH and NJPW wouldn't be different is to really to misunderstand the whole thrust of the new design, which is that you're sacrificing approximations (which is the best you can do with TEW2016 - you can't, for example, accurately model NJPW currently regardless of what you do) to gain much higher accuracy.</p><p> </p><p> Either way, I would recommend you simply wait for the game and try the system for yourself - if you end up hating it, so be it, but (having played it, and gotten the feedback from the others who have) I am very confident that once people have gotten over the fact that it's different, it'll be a very popular change.</p>

[Adam Ryland]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Kingster" data-cite="Kingster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Does this mean that the player will know the corresponding real world company (if there is one) for each product?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yes. Literally, you type in "Chikara" as a keyword and you'll see a list of products that I've specifically designed for them. We're talking quite literally under 10 seconds to find and assign a product for a real world company. Compare that to the time it'd take you to create a less accurate approximation in TEW2016.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Kingster" data-cite="Kingster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Does the player still have to book according to match/angle ratios? And if so, are these specifically linked to the product</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yes and yes.</p>

[southside_hitmen]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think you may have misunderstood. There will be a product that is <em>literally</em> to model NOAH. There will be a product that is <em>literally</em> to model NJPW. Worrying that NOAH and NJPW wouldn't be different is to really to misunderstand the whole thrust of the new design, which is that you're sacrificing approximations (which is the best you can do with TEW2016 - you can't, for example, accurately model NJPW currently regardless of what you do) to gain much higher accuracy.<p> </p><p> Either way, I would recommend you simply wait for the game and try the system for yourself - if you end up hating it, so be it, but (having played it, and gotten the feedback from the others who have) I am very confident that once people have gotten over the fact that it's different, it'll be a very popular change.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This sounds awesome. So we'll be fine with submitting things in the suggestions thread that have a lot of similarities but 1 or 2 at/above or below "medium" level product settings under the current setup?</p><p> </p><p> My main concern is that we would get for example like 3-4 "puro" products and say "ok, that's everything in the history of Japanese wrestling past, present, and future".</p><p> </p><p> Like I mentioned it's hard to see all the under the hood benefits of the new system as I know you are still developing and tweaking. My chat with DerekB in the discord server leaves me bullish on how it shakes out to actual game situations. I understand you have to play poker a bit with what the system actually does as of now, so it's very likely you are just operating under knowing a heck of a lot more info than me at the moment.</p><p> </p><p> And, you've never made a game that I've hated <img alt=":)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> We're good there.</p><p> </p><p> TEW, WMMA, & WreSpi have gotten too much play time to the detriment of the rest of my life to say I ever hated anything <img alt=":)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

[shawn michaels]

<p>First of all i wanna say i've always been a big fan of things that streamline the game. I play mostly (not always, but a lot of times) as big companies or build my way there and it becomes a task to play the game, which is not how one should feel about a game. So obviously any feature that speeds up the process and makes it easier, with less clicks, is always welcomed. That said, I'm also aware that a few die hard fans of customization like the micro-management options. That's fine, I like some of them as well. But if something is added that streamlines the game, upgrades from the previous and makes it easier to understand, as well as better to play, I'm all for it.</p><p> </p><p>

Ideally we want options that allow both the EWR experience, the TEW experience and something in between. Obviously that won't always be possible with every single feature. Not every time will it be possible to make it optional or to turn it on or off.</p><p> </p><p>

I was on the fence about this, as stated in my previous post, but after seeing all of Adam's replies, I believe that, from what we know at this point and from the clarifications he gave, this improves our experience and the drawback is the reduction of a chance to set around with a bunch of complicated products in a complicated system that not everyone was a fan of. </p><p> </p><p>

Don't get me wrong, I love to experiment with everything and tinkering with products was always fun, but now that Adam has made his explanations and clarified the issues, we're basically getting Adam Ryland made products, (who else could do better product settings than the man who knows all the code and actually creates the game?) with the possibility to patch in more, knowing what we are choosing, as any booker would, saving us a lot of time. With this knowledge, I have to say that I actually like this feature. Props. The drawback is indeed minor and now I actually look forward to try it.</p>

[Vladamire Dracos]

Personally, I don't mind giving up some flexibility for hand-crafted products by the creator of the game itself as long as there's a wide range of them. Like the man said, it didn't seem like anybody was really taking advantage of the current system (and honestly, I always found it a little mystifying).

[K-Nection]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Vladamire Dracos" data-cite="Vladamire Dracos" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> Like the man said, it didn't seem like anybody was really taking advantage of the current system</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> *Screams into pillow* Ok I'm better now lol</p>

[Vladamire Dracos]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="K-Nection" data-cite="K-Nection" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>*Screams into pillow* Ok I'm better now lol</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> *Points at the word "Seem" in the quoted* <img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

[Jaysin]

Not a fan of having to use preset products.

[Greylocke]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Jaysin" data-cite="Jaysin" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="46105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Not a fan of having to use preset products.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Count me as another of these.</p><p> </p><p> Thing is, even if it's true that most players do spend a lot of time trying to emulate RL products (and I'm not sure that's a good reason to completely ignore the minority who don't), not every player has the same view of what the product of the same company is. With the current system we have the option to change the product of any company if we don't agree with the modmaker's view of what this company's product really is. I may not want to play another person's vision of WWE or NJPW even if I want to play as WWE or NJPW. It wouldn't be possible (I think) with the new system to preset 10+ different versions of product for each existing company (which may not even be enough) to satisfy individual players, wil it? In effect, everyone will only be playing what the <em>majority</em> of how other players view their favourite companies and it sucks for those who may disagree with the majority view.</p>

[pate]

I'm a huge fan of the new product system. I definitely never understood exactly what I was doing when setting up or changing a product.

[SirMichaelJordan]

I was already using the presets tbh...Most mods, especially those with a lot of companies seem to set products to a basic setting and multiple companies looked the same. No one really had unique settings outside maybe a select few of companies in said mods.

[Kingster]

Yes. Literally, you type in "Chikara" as a keyword and you'll see a list of products that I've specifically designed for them. We're talking quite literally under 10 seconds to find and assign a product for a real world company. Compare that to the time it'd take you to create a less accurate approximation in TEW2016.

That sounds perfect, thanks for replying.

 

I agree with what "shawn michaels" said: some of the scepticism I had about the new system has been cleared thanks to Adam Ryland's clarification.

After re-reading the entry and Ryland's posts in this thread, I'm actually confident now that the new product system will be better and I think it might even be "deeper" than some people think right now.

[stratusfaction]

2 - Events can now be fixed to a specific venue.

This makes me so very happy.

 

4 - When negotiating a 'first refusal contract with a recent graduate, 'blocking' style owner goals no longer apply. This makes it easier to bring your own development talent through the ranks. For example, the owner may say that you can't hire anyone with Basics less than a certain figure, but that wouldn't apply to graduates because they're unlikely to have the skills to ever get around that goal.

I get all excited whenever I see that I have a dojo graduate but my excitement is always short because my owner never allows me to hire them, so this is an awesome update.

 

3 - Workers can now change sexuality during game play.

I'm curious how this will work and how it will play out in the game and if we can disable this option or not.