TEW 2020 released!

[DeathZone2]

<p>I feel like a lot of the "cloud shouting" as it's called would be stopped if we had a little transparency. Not even a full detailed explanation, but just some small peaks behind the curtain, or just an answer or a few polite posts. A list of what can or can not be tweaked could do wonders. And for the stuff that can't, a reasoning as to why.</p><p>

"I know everyone are not a fan of this, but early on in development, I made this and that decisions and therefore..."</p><p>

"I hope as many people as possible enjoy TEW 2020, but I understand that some can't, and your feedback is taken into consideration in the future."</p>

[Thomnipotent]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="DeathZone2" data-cite="DeathZone2" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49492" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I feel like a lot of the "cloud shouting" as it's called would be stopped if we had a little transparency. Not even a full detailed explanation, but just some small peaks behind the curtain, or just an answer or a few polite posts. A list of what can or can not be tweaked could do wonders. And for the stuff that can't, a reasoning as to why.<p> "I know everyone are not a fan of this, but early on in development, I made this and that decisions and therefore..."</p><p> "I hope as many people as possible enjoy TEW 2020, but I understand that some can't, and your feedback is taken into consideration in the future."</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Thank you for saying what I couldn't shout eloquently.</p><p> </p><p> It's a really weird open beta when all of the negative feedback is ignored, dismissed, or fought back against.</p><p> </p><p> People are getting frustrated with a lack of transparency or, heck, even acknowledgement of the validity of the concerns. That's why we have the same handful of things being beaten to death; because they're not dying right.</p>

[jgriff3029]

I doubt I will by the game, mainly due to the way products are no longer customizable, the UI and some of the QoL things that I believe have gone backwards. But most importantly, I feel that the sandbox element is gone. I have purchased every TEW game since 2005, but at this point will be passing on 2020.

 

I am not posting this here to argue or say the game is broken or is no good. The reason I am posting it here is that after buying the previous six games, I wanted to provide feedback to Adam on why I am passing on this version. He can choose to do with the feedback as he pleases.

 

Again, I get that many people love the game as is and am not trying to tell you that your wrong. Not every game is for everyone.

[KevinStorm]

But at what point are you just shouting at the clouds? You are well within your right to feel the way you feel and say the way you feel but the same posts over and over aren’t going to make it any more likely to get fixed what you feel is broken. You are also well within your right to not purchase the game. These games are written in the language Adam clearly is comfortable working in and e-license doesn’t look like it’s going anywhere either.

 

Reacting to the beta and reacting to the 1.0 release are two completely different things, and he's got just as much right to criticize the 1.0 release as other people have to post one-liners about how awesome they think the game is. But only the people that criticize the game ever seem to get flamed for it.

[RatedRKO16]

TEEMU... I think a lot of us read what you said by it was a legit review and one a lot of us relate to, me included. For every reason you listed, I am sticking with 2016 for the time being. Already booked a month the past couple of nights. Enjoying that autobooker... although not so much that it doesn't fill up the rest the matches. But, it's the one thing I have to live with. The game feels a little less alive, but it's so much more user friendly I'm having a lot more fun playing this game. I really hope in the future the things you listed get fixed and we can all jump on the TEW 20 bandwagon.

[dvdWarrior]

Very happy that the game has finally been officially released. I made the purchase soon as I got home from work yesterday, and have been enjoying it since. One question I do have, and I'm sorry if this is the wrong place for it, or if the answer already can be found somewhere else, (I didn't see it), but where can I find the most recent version of the default data?

 

I always like to have the most up to date, typo-free version of the data I can get, but with that last pre-release patch, I was a little too into my play, and just assumed I could get the data later on. Then, the release came, and I messed around with that. Now, I can't seem to find it.

 

Just wondering, is all.

 

[awesomenessofme1]

Very happy that the game has finally been officially released. I made the purchase soon as I got home from work yesterday, and have been enjoying it since. One question I do have, and I'm sorry if this is the wrong place for it, or if the answer already can be found somewhere else, (I didn't see it), but where can I find the most recent version of the default data?

 

I always like to have the most up to date, typo-free version of the data I can get, but with that last pre-release patch, I was a little too into my play, and just assumed I could get the data later on. Then, the release came, and I messed around with that. Now, I can't seem to find it.

 

Just wondering, is all.

 

 

It should automatically be there after you install the game.

[Brushfire]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="DeathZone2" data-cite="DeathZone2" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49492" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I feel like a lot of the "cloud shouting" as it's called would be stopped if we had a little transparency. Not even a full detailed explanation, but just some small peaks behind the curtain, or just an answer or a few polite posts. A list of what can or can not be tweaked could do wonders. And for the stuff that can't, a reasoning as to why.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah, exactly. The whole point in posting the criticism is so that it can be fed back and responded to, it definitely shouldn't be seen as 'cloud shouting' in the first place. </p><p> </p><p> For clarity, I bought the game day one after enjoying large aspects of the demo and find the game enjoyable in its current state. I especially think the new skin is better than any previous Default skin. </p><p> </p><p> That said, I agree with every single point that Teemu made on the previous page, and continue to hope for improvements to the game (the key things for me being <a href="http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=546566" rel="external nofollow">something like Slim's excellent mock-up of the stats</a>, <a href="http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=547294" rel="external nofollow">larger text/'grades'</a> [<a href="http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=546447" rel="external nofollow">alt suggestion</a>], <a href="http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=547063" rel="external nofollow">a much quicker way of moving segments in the booking screen</a>, and a filterable Contracts/Roster Overview screen [w/ <a href="http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=546915" rel="external nofollow">custom division names</a>].</p><p> </p><p> I hope everyone is keeping well and trying to enjoy themselves as much as The Nickman enjoys his morning coffee. <img alt=":)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

[Blackman]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="KevinStorm" data-cite="KevinStorm" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49492" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I agree with pretty much everything Teemu said. I'd only add that, while I really like the perception system, I'd like to be able to more easily distinguish between wrestlers and non wrestlers on the contracts screen (which is the closest we have to 16's roster overview, which I used a lot).</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'm pretty sure I posted this as a suggestion, but it has been blatently dismissed. After a while I will of course know by heart who is and who isn't, but it's here the new colour schemes could do wonders. However, while booking it does seem to filter out the non-wrestlers, so I guess I can work with that.</p><p> </p><p> As for the grades disappearing: I get it, it's a different approach, but it's logical a lot of people would complain about such an iconic part of the game.</p><p> </p><p> I agree a lot of this so-called "negativity" could have been avoided if he clearly communicated what can and cannot be done. From several of the posts here weeks ago, I take it people don't really understand the limitations of this engine. At that point you're actually shouting at clouds and it's not helping anybody.</p>

[Xendarii]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Charvalos" data-cite="Charvalos" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49492" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>They can't implement so many things because of VB6.<p> </p><p> We're in 2020 and TEW :</p><p> </p><p> </p><ul><li> Still has a fixed resolution<br /></li><li> Still asking to run on admin mode<br /></li><li> Still not supporting basing QoL like being able to scroll with my mouse or even being able to drag and drop the segments on the booking screen<br /></li><li> Has a awful & terrible UI with so many bad design choices (font size, color, etc).<br /></li><li> Still using a old system for the license<br /></li><li> Doesn't have a automatic update system. We still have to download a new .exe & copy it to the game directory.<br /></li><li> Etc..<br /></li></ul><p></p><p> </p><p> And for that, you have to pay 35$.</p><p> </p><p> Tbh, I don't understand why Adam bothered to re-wrote TEW by using the same old engine. Being myself a developper, it just make no sense.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This is the best post regarding this whole issue I've seen so far. You perfectly described how I feel about all of this. Including being a developer myself and being absolutely negatively amazed how someone would care to re-develop a game and still use the same completely outdated engine and programming language instead of moving forward into the 21st century (which has already been going on for 20 years by now - it's not like there was hardly any time for some education in modern techniques).</p>

[Questlove]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Xendarii" data-cite="Xendarii" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49492" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>This is the best post regarding this whole issue I've seen so far. You perfectly described how I feel about all of this. Including being a developer myself and being absolutely negatively amazed how someone would care to re-develop a game and still use the same completely outdated engine and programming language instead of moving forward into the 21st century (which has already been going on for 20 years by now - it's not like there was hardly any time for some education in modern techniques).</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49492" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>For TEW2020, I've instead completely taken the game apart, rewritten the underlying architecture, and then put each feature back in one-by-one, revamping and upgrading as I go along. The end result is that while you're still going to recognise the game as being part of the TEW series, it's effectively a much sharper, quicker, more intuitive, better quality piece of work. This is going to be the biggest jump forward in terms of quality the series has ever seen (I can say that with confidence because it's already blowing TEW2016 out of the water and there's still at least a year of work to come!)</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This is from the very beginning of the developer journal. I don't know about anybody else, but when I read that, I immediately thought wow, no more VB! TEW is being modernized! Even a single screenshot at any point over the last 2 years would have shown that wasn't the case.</p>

[Xendarii]

This is from the very beginning of the developer journal. I don't know about anybody else, but when I read that, I immediately thought wow, no more VB! TEW is being modernized! Even a single screenshot at any point over the last 2 years would have shown that wasn't the case.

 

There definitely have been technical improvements, e.g. the workers list loads significantly faster now, and I'm sure there's tons of stuff under the hood that made development way more enjoyable for Adam.

 

But yeah, still VB. I don't get it. Would appreciate a statement from Adam where he explains this decision, but tbh there's not much more to say than either "I'm too lazy to learn a new language" or "I don't have enough time to learn a new language", so...

[rufas2000]

Well a few impressions (mostly because the more people who weigh in the more data points we have).

 

On the good: I thought I would hate not having letter grades but between that and skill sets becoming less varied (more workers skew toward the middle) I actually find more cool characters that are viable. It also helps to know more about what skills do. Knowing that only a 40 in selling is needed to avoid that worker lowering a match grade makes some of the big men more viable. Also knowing there isn't that much of a functional difference between an 80 or 90 star quality (I'm sure there is some but probably not as much as the difference between a B and an A would indicate).

 

Also a small thing but being able to ignore the disposition change timing is very handy. It allows the user to do things that were historically possible (like Rock's faux face turn in 1998) but not viable (without penalty) in previous versions). Also it helps if the person from the dev fed shows up with the wrong disposition the territory assigned right before I called him or her up.

 

Note maybe its cheesing to use it but the key is restraint. The purpose is to have fun, not to workaround issues.

 

On the downside booking a show is a pain. The arrows, ugh! So counter intuitive because as far as I can tell you can't simply highlight a segment and move it. You have to click on the arrow where the segment currently resides. Its doable but not easy. Also with angles being length sensitive I have to book more of them. I do like road agent notes for angles.

 

I couldn't find a perfect product but I found one that'll work and a couple of others that'll do. Between that and turning off match ratios I'll be OK. I hope more options are added as time goes on.

 

Overall I'm enjoying it. Some up, some down.

 

So those are my thoughts to add to the pile.

[ItaOperor]

I'm pretty sure I posted this as a suggestion, but it has been blatently dismissed. After a while I will of course know by heart who is and who isn't, but it's here the new colour schemes could do wonders. However, while booking it does seem to filter out the non-wrestlers, so I guess I can work with that.

 

If you filter your roster to workers only and then go into the contracts screen it will filter out the non-workers. It's a bit fiddly but it can be done

[Forgotmyusername]

<p>The discussion about tearing the game apart to remake it with the same engine echoes my opinion 3 weeks ago when I played the demo. Reposting it here, as its currently relevant discussion, and the release of the game hasnt changed much of my issues that I have. The UI, while improved, is still very bad. Booking issues werent even attempted to be fixed. Worker contracts still hidden. Keyboard mouse still has less functionality than 1995s RollerCoaster Tycoon. Angles and viewing stats is cumbersome. Luckily we got rid of yellow as the top stat, though I still go to bed wondering how that call was made in the first place</p><p> </p><p>

<em>Looking at this thread, a significant chunk of problems I have or others have get labelled as "limitations". When I read this game was being rebuilt from scratch, I assumed we were getting in line with modern times- That TEW2020 was being built from scratch as we were going to use a program that was created in the 21st century. We were building it from scratch to get rid of 1991 programming so we could, at the very least, have the game be able to use full screen.</em></p><p><em> </em></p><p><em>

Finding out this is still being built on the 1990s program, the same one that EWR was using, was mind blowing for me. It seems odd, counter intuitive even, to go through the trouble of rebuilding something while still using the same program that gives you all these limitations in the first place. Would've made more sense to save the rebuild for a newer program.</em></p><p><em> </em></p><p><em>

For all the great things this game does (talk to worker, new attributes and Daniel bryan yes movement recreation being my favorites), it takes big steps back in the worst ways possible. TEW16 made such significant strides in quality of life and ease of accessibility. TEW20, there is no other way to say it, seems to be at war with its predecessors optimization. Some examples:</em></p><p><em> </em></p><p><em>

- I would hope we all understand how awful the UI is. Downplaying it as a vocal minority makes me question that though. So I do feel the need to mention it here.</em></p><p><em>

- Arrow keys/scroll bar. I hear its being updated. We will see. I hope so.</em></p><p><em>

- Booking changes being so cumbersome. How did this happen? Why is it so hard to move things.</em></p><p><em>

- Quick view worker on the booking screen is gone. Why?</em></p><p><em>

- Navigating worker contracts. If a common question in a fanbase that has been playing these games for 5-20 years is "how do I fire someone?", something is very wrong.</em></p><p><em>

- Less severe, but not giving the option to have letter grades and then also making it so yellow of all colors is the top stat. Yellow?? Nowhere on the planet is yellow going to be a universal color for a higher end grade</em></p><p><em> </em></p><p><em>

Less clicks and more optimization should always be a priority in these games. But for whatever reason, intended or not, we seem to be going in the opposite direction. For me, right now with the demo/beta, the pros do not outweigh the cons.</em></p><p><em> </em></p><p><em>

I love EWR and TEW. I think adam is brilliant to make these games, not to mention during his free time. Thats also why part of me feels bad having criticism- knowing this isnt Adams day job. That he does this on the side. That, despite it being very weird for a developer to not move on past 1991 programming.. for all I know he isnt a developer as much as he is someone who enjoys ****ing around with VB. For all I know, his day job is completely unrelated to all of this. He could sell puppies, work for a firearm manufacturer, be a manager at a ma and pa, etc. However, at the end of the day there is still a price tag of 35$ on the game, which justifies voicing my opinion, even if it comes off a little harsh</em></p><p> </p><p>

I want to buy and love this game, just like all the others. But the issues are so prominent, yet at the sametime downright silly. Who asked for QoL nerfs from 16?! I dont understand how we got here.</p>

[Questiontime101]

<p>Still Playing TEW 2016</p><p> </p><p>

I have been playing the demo again to see if I could get into this game but it's just not working the main thing that I am not liking about this game is how they got rid of Main events, uppers, mid cards, lowers, open and all this out of ring ones for this new one that rates them on how well the fans know them so you can have an in-ring working as the main start but then you will have a non-wrestler in there what was so wrong about the old way of doing it. TEW 2016 was a lot more of a wrestling booker simulator game than TEW 2020 it took 4 years to get a new game and this is what we get adding a little bit of new stuff and then removing all the good stuff from 2016 out of it</p>

[Xendarii]

The new perception system is a feature that I really like. I find it way more realistic and fitting than the old one.

[Bonafide_Bluffa]

yeah same i much prefer the perception system.

[KevinStorm]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Questiontime101" data-cite="Questiontime101" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49492" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I have been playing the demo again to see if I could get into this game but it's just not working the main thing that I am not liking about this game is how they got rid of Main events, uppers, mid cards, lowers, open and all this out of ring ones for this new one that rates them on how well the fans know them so you can have an in-ring working as the main start but then you will have a non-wrestler in there what was so wrong about the old way of doing it. TEW 2016 was a lot more of a wrestling booker simulator game than TEW 2020 it took 4 years to get a new game and this is what we get adding a little bit of new stuff and then removing all the good stuff from 2016 out of it</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Perception might be one of my favorite new features. My only issue is that I wish it was easier to distinguish wrestlers from non wrestlers, because I don't know squat about the Cverse and keep thinking of booking some Major Star in a match only to find out he's the ring announcer.</p>

[BrokenCycle]

He used one period in his 146 word post-- you're not going to convince him.

[Rawisericho]

Perception is one of my favorite new features.

[awesomenessofme1]

Want to preface this by saying that I really like the game. I'm having a lot of fun, and it seems like a definitely net improvement over 2016, and probably only going to get more so over time. That said, I'm starting to look forward, toward 2023 or 2024 or whenever the next game is being planned for. Visual Basic 6 came out in 1998, and it hasn't been supported since 2008. That means if Adam doesn't change things, he'll be forcing himself to work within a framework that will be 25 years old that hasn't been supported for 15 years. These are just ridiculous numbers on a computer software timeline. We're already seeing significant issues where Adam's desires and ambitions are running into hard structural limitations, and it's only going to get worse.

[Dross]

After seeing the patch notes for 1.02 I just want to say that I'm really appreciative of Adam relasing patches every single day, and also implementing some of the main complaints people seem(ed) to have. Having keyboard functionallity back for road agent notes, and toning down internet-based PPV revenue is MASSIVE. The game has improved dramatically the last few weeks, and everyone should acknowledge as much, no matter what complaints they may still have (rightfully or not). Adam is a superstar.

[Blackman]

Having keyboard functionallity back for road agent notes, and toning down internet-based PPV revenue is MASSIVE. The game has improved dramatically the last few weeks, and everyone should aknowledge as much, no matter what complaints they may still have (rightfully or not).

 

The game's definitely improved a lot since the demo hit. And to get updates on a sunday is a sign that things are looking positive. There's still some things I hope will improve (I'm not gonna call it "complaints"), but we'll get there I guess.

[adamhart39455]

absolutely

 

After seeing the patch notes for 1.02 I just want to say that I'm really appreciative of Adam relasing patches every single day, and also implementing some of the main complaints people seem(ed) to have. Having keyboard functionallity back for road agent notes, and toning down internet-based PPV revenue is MASSIVE. The game has improved dramatically the last few weeks, and everyone should aknowledge as much, no matter what complaints they may still have (rightfully or not). Adam is a superstar.

 

exactly dude is working his butt off, which is the reason i would've pre-ordered this game the day it was announced to be in development. you won't see that kind of work coming from anyone at these major gaming companies. Heck 2K still haven't fix the WWE game from last year.