Render Discussion Thread

[Big Roguey]

Enough people have mentioned it so here is a thread to split off the render talk from the rest of the beta talk. 

Keep it civil or else the thread gets shut down as quickly as it got started. 

[Shaman_at-Dawn]

I'll make one remark, then i am letting it go.

 

AI "art" is pure theft. I could link dozens of articles and videos on the subject, but as an artist myself, any use of ai disgusts me. 

 

I AM DONE

Edited July 28 by Shaman_at-Dawn

[beatingstuff88]

I feel like the Ai renders are a good idea, but i'm less of a fan about the full black background, i feel like the Cverse blue made the characters pop a lot more

For example i just took adam matravers' render

 

The blue adds to it more i feel

[ZonaCidal]

I prefer this one to the black background. 

Edited July 28 by ZonaCidal

[AlanMaths677]

I probably think I prefer the recent AI used for 2020 by Walter and others. Where it is a glow up but still keeps a video game look feel. I think the current is nice but too ultra realistic for me. 

Either way, people just go with your choice whether it's DAZ renders or the AI renders. Don't think there's any need to sling insults at one or the other. And for people boycotting the game for it that is your choice, but acting hostile towards others who like the AI isn't necessary imo.

 

That's my final thoughts really. 

[EdJames]

7 minutes ago, AlanMaths677 said:

I probably think I prefer the recent AI used for 2020 by Walter and others. Where it is a glow up but still keeps a video game look feel. I think the current is nice but too ultra realistic for me. 

Either way, people just go with your choice whether it's DAZ renders or the AI renders. Don't think there's any need to sling insults at one or the other. And for people boycotting the game for it that is your choice, but acting hostile towards others who like the AI isn't necessary imo.

 

That's my final thoughts really. 

For what it’s worth, I’d love to see Walter do the full 3,000+ workers and would love to play a game with that in place.

I’d equally love to play a game with entirely Daz 3D renders in a single style if someone can stomach the whole database. I was a huge JSilver fan and always hoped he’d finished the whole DB one day. 

I’ll also be the first to download a real world mod when it comes 😁

[newbiezness]

I'll copy what I said in the reaction thread:

6 minutes ago, newbiezness said:

The worst thing to me (I play only C-Verse) are the AI pictures. I can't describe how bad they look to me. The dark background seems to be another bad decision. With all those reflections and dark areas there are workers that you almost can't see. Also those are the kind of AI pictures that seem very similar to real people, when a more cartoonish pictures actually works better for a game like this. That's the kind of thing that limits the power of the imagination in a game that it's all about being creative. Awful decisions.

I'll leave the debate about AI usage of artists works for others because I don't know enough about that but I'd ask... Why throw away all the work from previous versions for these AI pictures that don't look much better in the best case scenario and so many people find them controversial? (I think they look much worse but I'm trying to think that I like them)

[beatingstuff88]

1 minute ago, newbiezness said:

I'll copy what I said in the reaction thread:

I'll leave the debate about AI usage of artists works for others because I don't know enough about that but I'd ask... Why throw away all the work from previous versions for these AI pictures that don't look much better in the best case scenario and so many people find them controversial? (I think they look much worse but I'm trying to think that I like them)

I think thats the issue, all the "work from the previous versions" don't age well. I feel like there is a problem when some characters still have renders from over 10-20 years ago. 

 

Then the other option would be to pay someone to remake all thousands of workers in Daz, but that would take an ungodly amount of time and effort. In terms of efficiency and freshening up AI is just the fastest/easiest/cheapest way

[Chikbot]

58 minutes ago, Shaman_at-Dawn said:

I'll make one remark, then i am letting it go.

 

AI "art" is pure theft. I could link dozens of articles and videos on the subject, but as an artist myself, any use of ai disgusts me. 

 

I AM DONE

Listen, I believe context is important, absolutism on the issue is dead and gone, the box is already opened. I get that it affects you as an artist though, but there's no resealing this at all.

 

 

As I've said before, if things were switched around and the DAZ renders came with the game and the AI ones were downloadable, I wouldn't care, But, as you are technically buying the AI art, that's where I have an issue. For hobbyism, AI is fine, when its used for profit, that's when it bothers me. 

Nothing is changing though now, game's out, already made my point when the original decision was made..

[newbiezness]

Just now, beatingstuff88 said:

I think thats the issue, all the "work from the previous versions" don't age well. I feel like there is a problem when some characters still have renders from over 10-20 years ago. 

 

Then the other option would be to pay someone to remake all thousands of workers in Daz, but that would take an ungodly amount of time and effort. In terms of efficiency and freshening up AI is just the fastest/easiest/cheapest way

I still have to think about buying this new game, I'll take my time and probably will wait to see if some things are improved before the final release or using patches. But if I buy this game some day first thing I'd do is remove those awful AI pictures, either for the old ones or for pictures designed by the community.

[Heinzreich]

1 hour ago, beatingstuff88 said:

I feel like the Ai renders are a good idea, but i'm less of a fan about the full black background, i feel like the Cverse blue made the characters pop a lot more

For example i just took adam matravers' render

 

The blue adds to it more i feel

I think I agree with ya here. A completely transparent background could also work. I also think the portraits are too zoomed out, and it's especially noticeable in the GIF portraits. The portraits are a nice addition otherwise!

[alpha2117]

2 hours ago, Shaman_at-Dawn said:

I'll make one remark, then i am letting it go.

 

AI "art" is pure theft. I could link dozens of articles and videos on the subject, but as an artist myself, any use of ai disgusts me. 

 

I AM DONE

You can think it is morally or ethically dubious.  You can say some AI potentially plagarises, commits forgery, breeches copyright or infringes on intellectual property. What it doesn't commit is theft because it doesn't deprive anyone of what they own.  I know you think theft is a synonym for the other things but it isn't,  it really isn't.  Any article that says it is hasn't bothered to look up the definition of the word.

Edited July 28 by alpha2117

[Pteroid]

I react to AI 'art' in the same fashion I would react in the scenario that Adam announced they'd be doing TEW NFT's. This is an idiotic fad whose bubble will burst the second tech bros find some new shiny thing to pursue. The fact that I'm intending to dredge up pictures from Over 9000verse, Diablo X, and even create new pics utilizing the Kinnikuman wiki and GiMP should probably inform how extremely unwilling I am to give this slop the time of day.

[WalterSobchak]

5 hours ago, EdJames said:

For what it’s worth, I’d love to see Walter do the full 3,000+ workers and would love to play a game with that in place.

I’d equally love to play a game with entirely Daz 3D renders in a single style if someone can stomach the whole database. I was a huge JSilver fan and always hoped he’d finished the whole DB one day. 

I’ll also be the first to download a real world mod when it comes 😁

Appreciate that @EdJames …

One huge benefit of the game only advancing two years is the vast majority of my 2020 AI renders are still useable. I will be redoing the ones that need to be updated due to in-game changes with tag teams, stables, or gimmicks. Plan is to eventually fully render the game though. 

I would also like to express my appreciation for the effort you gave to send the new version of the game out with a full slate of renders. Great job and thank you!

[alpha2117]

3 hours ago, Pteroid said:

I react to AI 'art' in the same fashion I would react in the scenario that Adam announced they'd be doing TEW NFT's. This is an idiotic fad whose bubble will burst the second tech bros find some new shiny thing to pursue. The fact that I'm intending to dredge up pictures from Over 9000verse, Diablo X, and even create new pics utilizing the Kinnikuman wiki and GiMP should probably inform how extremely unwilling I am to give this slop the time of day.

Maybe, I suspect like many tech innovations it will eventually just seem normal and commonplace.   I don't particularly like it conceptually but its something I kind of know is probably inevitable.   I am glad this game gives people the opportunity to decide for themselves what they use pic wise.

Edited July 28 by alpha2117

[JackH2020]

5 hours ago, Chikbot said:

Listen, I believe context is important, absolutism on the issue is dead and gone, the box is already opened. I get that it affects you as an artist though, but there's no resealing this at all.

 

 

As I've said before, if things were switched around and the DAZ renders came with the game and the AI ones were downloadable, I wouldn't care, But, as you are technically buying the AI art, that's where I have an issue. For hobbyism, AI is fine, when its used for profit, that's when it bothers me. 

Nothing is changing though now, game's out, already made my point when the original decision was made..

I think this is actually a pretty well balanced take that whilst I don't necessarily side with it, I can totally understand and respect it. The one you're quoting is utterly ridiculous and borders on extremely biased (for obvious reasons) at best and just outright bad faith at worst.

 

As someone with no stakes in the area all I see is an improvement on the whole. But most importantly and the thing I can't weight up the amount of vitriol they seem to be getting from some people is that they are another OPTION and frankly I think that is almost always a positive from a consumers perspective.

 

[TWoody24]

1 hour ago, WalterSobchak said:

Appreciate that @EdJames …

One huge benefit of the game only advancing two years is the vast majority of my 2020 AI renders are still useable. I will be redoing the ones that need to be updated due to in-game changes with tag teams, stables, or gimmicks. Plan is to eventually fully render the game though. 

I would also like to express my appreciation for the effort you gave to send the new version of the game out with a full slate of renders. Great job and thank you!

I was really hoping when the demo got release that your stuff would be the AI renders. I can't wait to see everything you do once it's finished. I can't fully play the game for a while as I'm not at home for the next few months and only have a macbook pro so hopefully once I get back home you have fully done all the workers in the C-Verse. Your stuff is absolutely tremendous. I prefer the more cartoon style than the realistic that is in the game right now.

[Cyhort]

I'll post what I said in the reaction topic earlier. I was typing it up as I was going through the database:

Quote

 

I'm actually really fascinated by the new renders. I know, AI is the devil and all, but just from a comparison standpoint it's kind of cool to see how certain renders that have been basically unchanged since the early games are updated. I never expected Ade Nelson to look so old, for instance, but it makes sense because he's not 23 anymore. In that respect, I think AI is probably most useful in quickly changing pictures as characters age/change gimmicks. I also think they look better than a lot of the newer CG renders. I never liked the weird, washed out look of the Australian workers. The older women too actually look older. A lot of the black wrestlers also look like real people now. Cali Slick actually looks badass instead of goofy. I'm scrolling through them now looking at all my old standby hires and so far almost all of them I think look better than the CD renders. Ah! There's so many free pictures! I'm gonna spend all day just going through those and creating characters around the ones I like the best. 

 

Okay, so having glanced through the list, I definitely think this was the right choice. I'm sure once I get in the game and start seeing more workers I'll come across some duds and some sameface, but it seems like there's a lot more variety in the way the faces look than there is in the default Cverse renders. There's also way less goofiness and odd looking faces. I used to skip over a lot of workers because I didn't like their renders, and now I don't really have that problem. So yeah, I like the AI renders. In many cases better than the original renders.  

 

After playing around with the game on and off, I stick by what I said. I've been playing TEW since 2007, I've spent basically my entire adult life with the Cverse, and, personal feelings on AI aside, I think the new renders are better than the old ones. So many of them fit better with the ages and the descriptions of the workers (especially with workers who are much older now than they were when their renders were first made), there's so much more variety in the faces (how many workers looked like Matthew Keith again?), the free pictures look amazing, so many long time workers actually look like real people I'd pay to see wrestle. The only render I don't really like is KC Glenn But over all, this was a good choice, and I think if people let go of their kneejerk reactions to AI and (much needed in my opinion) change, they'd start to see the good points of the new pictures. I think we all forget that a lot of the original Cverse renders were kinda bad (see my comment about the Australian workers in the quote). So bad that a lot of us download entire re-render packs every year just to have better renders. I cannot reiterate enough how terrible most of the black workers looked in the original style. Just go back and look at the old renders for Steve Frehley, Fro Sure, Cali Slick, and Brother Grimm and tell me the new renders aren't better. 

I understand not liking change, and yes, this is a drastic change. But, coming from someone who usually hates change, sometimes change is necessary. I just hope in the coming weeks more people cool off a bit and give the new renders a chance to grow on them.

[GoldenBrady]

I've never been a Cornellverse fan, but the new AI generated art style has drawn me in as it now feels a lot more "real" and I feel I can get more of a connection to world. I'll still probably revert to real world saves once mods start coming out, but in the meantime i'll be trying out a Cornellverse save and definitely feel like I could get into it enough to continue it beyond the beta

[EdJames]

5 hours ago, Heinzreich said:

I think I agree with ya here. A completely transparent background could also work. I also think the portraits are too zoomed out, and it's especially noticeable in the GIF portraits. The portraits are a nice addition otherwise!

Agree entirely on this.

First thing I plan to do is make them fully transparent and full size as my GIF option and then probably a blue background as my JPG one.

[Woodsmeister]

They look great from the ones I’ve seen don’t get home from my holiday until later today so haven’t had chance to dive in so am relying on people posting screenshots.

I have no issue with AI creating the images it has never affected me so maybe that’s why and it’s an option you can always revert back.

 

[JackH2020]

19 minutes ago, GoldenBrady said:

I've never been a Cornellverse fan, but the new AI generated art style has drawn me in as it now feels a lot more "real" and I feel I can get more of a connection to world. I'll still probably revert to real world saves once mods start coming out, but in the meantime i'll be trying out a Cornellverse save and definitely feel like I could get into it enough to continue it beyond the beta

It makes me really want to see a hybrid Real World meets the Cornelverse database. I've drifted away from RW as I find I just get locked into sign the people I know and use them very similar to real life but I think throwing a couple hundred cverse workers into one might shake things up a bit.

[Mecha Kaji]

I'm of two minds:

I have so many OCs, it's going to be tricky to recreate with the current options, including free images and I don't want to part ways with some of my favourites. For example there's far more asian female faces but only 1 masked female option so far.

HOWEVER, I have being very sceptical of the creativity of AI thus far but these are FAR better than I expected. I like that there is a diversity of ages, structures and attractiveness. For the longest time, all it seemed like people could/wanted to create were either A. Tekken character is you were a man or B. 10/10 20 year old, anime-esque if you were a woman (this was particularly the case for the Asian women, we didn't sit right with me as a 5SSW player).

But this current line up is diverse and more "ground in reality" (ironically). I also like the logos and belts haven't been updated because while some have been great, a lot of AI designs look the same, like they're all from the same company regardless.

[EdJames]

26 minutes ago, Mecha Kaji said:

I'm of two minds:

I have so many OCs, it's going to be tricky to recreate with the current options, including free images and I don't want to part ways with some of my favourites. For example there's far more asian female faces but only 1 masked female option so far.

HOWEVER, I have being very sceptical of the creativity of AI thus far but these are FAR better than I expected. I like that there is a diversity of ages, structures and attractiveness. For the longest time, all it seemed like people could/wanted to create were either A. Tekken character is you were a man or B. 10/10 20 year old, anime-esque if you were a woman (this was particularly the case for the Asian women, we didn't sit right with me as a 5SSW player).

But this current line up is diverse and more "ground in reality" (ironically). I also like the logos and belts haven't been updated because while some have been great, a lot of AI designs look the same, like they're all from the same company regardless.

Leave the free images with me and they’ll get fleshed out over the coming weeks and months.

[Self]

I wish these games were popular and successful enough to justify massive art budgets to pay artists to create a whole cohesive universe, without using AI. Sadly, images for the default universe have always been cheap. Not quality, but cost. DAZ images by community was cheap. AI is now cheaper.

Generally I subscribe to the idea that if a project cannot afford artists, the project doesn't deserve art... but selfishly I like TEW and like art being in it. I've used AI art in my diary game too. I'm not above using a free tool for my own needs.

Specifically about this art, the photo realistic style isn't my cup of tea. I like the cartoon... although I will give credit to the better represented ages and ugliness of characters. Wrestlers are generally just blokes, not supermodels. 

I mostly wish pictures were used differently. 150x150 is so small, often shrunk on certain screens and shrunk further with the border option. If you're redoing all of the pictures anyway, with the speed of AI, why just do headshots? It's so dated, and so small. But this is less an argument of the art itself but rather the games UI.