Biggest WWE Underachievers

[SuperOwens]

I'm going to say The Dynamite Kid, at the time he wrestled for the WWF he was at the peak of his ability. This guy was the greatest wrestler of his generation. Bret Hart describes him as pound-for-pound the greatest wrestler that ever lived. Now Dynamite was huge in Japan and his feud with Tiger Mask is legendary. But in WWF it was just good. Probably let down by his size and his attitude he never made it huge in the US. I just wonder what would have happened if he had a singles push.

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=Remianen;476104]I don't think you can call someone an underachiever when they're not used at all. That's like saying LeBron and 'Melo were underachievers in the 2004 Olympics (uhh, gotta actually get some playing time before you can underachieve). I love Victoria to death and while I wouldn't call her the hottest diva on the roster (3 way tie: Beth, Nattie, and Mickie "Ms New Booty" James with Katie Lea as a dark horse), she's definitely no Melina Perez.[/QUOTE] I see your point and aggree. [QUOTE=Remianen;476104]I know we have vastly different views. I don't buy Khali as a menace at all, mainly because you can't suspend my disbelief. As a littler guy, I have vivid memories of chopping down trees myself so size means nothing to me. Size is no indicator of fighting ability. So I don't ever buy the "look how much bigger Khali is" schtick. For that reason, he's useless as far as I'm concerned. If his only selling point is his physical stature and not what he can do in the ring or on the mic, he's a waste of flesh and any time he spends on my TV screen is a good time to go to the bathroom or make a sandwich or do my taxes or get a root canal (all of which are vastly more entertaining than Khali).[/QUOTE] I aggree with most everything you said in your post outside of this one. Number one, tell me all about the seven foot people you chopped down. There is a huge difference in being a 5'6" person going up against a 6' person, and a 6' person going against a 7' foot person. It's easy to sit back and say things watching the TV screen, but seeing it live is totally a different thing. Now, I don't doubt you hate him, can't stand watching him, etc. But your viewpoint on anything not Hardcore or Japanese (or woman with actual talent) is bassically mediocre at best. I have yet to here of one promotion you like with sports entertainment as it's foundation. Again, nothing wrong with that. However, I'm giving you the opinion of people that do enjoy it, people I invite over to watch it with me, etc. I point out everything you pointed out about Khali, and I give you the answer's they give me. Not MY ANSWERS. I already said I'm not a fan of Khali. I was objective at the beginning because of all the slots he can fill... However, he doesn't fill these slots as good as someone that would specialise (or just a mediocre person) playing the part. He can fill the "Giant" the "Evil Foreigner" the "Shiek" etc. These are all great in my mind, but he doesn't do so well at any of them. Together, he doesn't do much better, so... Yeah, I can see your points. My point is that the majority of people I talk to about wrestling (and it's quite a bit actually, I'd have to say anywhere around 40 or 50 people) don't differentiate the WWE from TNA (for example). Don't think of promtional products, dont' think of "selling" abilities or even Brawling. Don't think of 99% of the stuff we talk of here. They are impressed with Khali, Umaga, Abyss, etc. They are fans of Cena, Undertaker, Batista, Sting, AJ Styles and Samoa Joe. They don't go "Look WWE is better" or "WOW, TNA is way better!". Most do think of TNA as being able to see alot of their favorites from the past though, and think of it as the "Old School" show, and they see that as a PLUSS. Just a different viewpoint. Your viewpoint is always unique, and always informative. But your not the "Standard" by no means to wrestling fans.

[Destiny]

[QUOTE=djthefunkchris;476324] My point is that the majority of people I talk to about wrestling (and it's quite a bit actually, I'd have to say anywhere around 40 or 50 people) don't differentiate the WWE from TNA (for example). Don't think of promtional products, dont' think of "selling" abilities or even Brawling. Don't think of 99% of the stuff we talk of here. They are impressed with Khali, Umaga, Abyss, etc. They are fans of Cena, Undertaker, Batista, Sting, AJ Styles and Samoa Joe. They don't go "Look WWE is better" or "WOW, TNA is way better!". Most do think of TNA as being able to see alot of their favorites from the past though, and think of it as the "Old School" show, and they see that as a PLUSS. Just a different viewpoint. Your viewpoint is always unique, and always informative. But your not the "Standard" by no means to wrestling fans.[/QUOTE] I agree, although the majority of casual wrestling fans I talk to see WWE as a vast superior over TNA.

[BlueStar]

I normally don't take part in these discussion as we don't get any (regular) broadcasts in Europe so I'm just following stuff through Internet/YouTube/etc. About Khali: the guy's interesting, but that's about it. The "menacing, no talky sensy heel" thing has been done before, and a lot better, just not by anyone with his physique. That makes him, Entertainment (capital E-wise) good. Take the other kind of wrestler...just to name one. Benoit. And because this will stir up unnecessary discussion, take Dean Malenko or Billy Kidman. Ringwise, great. Athletics, great. Even psychology...pretty darn good. Yet, if you don't give them monsters, they tend to be stuck in their own universe. To be honest, I never understood why the public (both mainstream and the smarks) liked the Rock. Then again, I don't understand why smarks hated the Warrior but loved a guy like Foley. On a personal basis, yes, I understand. People like Foley and Funk put the $ss's on the line for the business, while Warrior was some roided up guy. But still, whenever Warrior came out, at his height in WWF, the crowd went crazy. What I'm trying to say....a lot of the momentum that's going on, is the momentum the company creates. Sometimes wrestlers will overcome this. But not often. Benoit was popular when he got his push. Cena, check. Most of the headliners are. There are very few exceptions. Even a smaller guy like Bret Hart got a big push as a singles star....if you compare that to someone like Kendrick or London....WWE's got the power to do similar things but don't do it. Bottom line: I don't think "underachiever" is a proper discussion...

[Self]

[QUOTE=Remianen;476104]I know we have vastly different views. I don't buy Khali as a menace at all, mainly because you can't suspend my disbelief. As a littler guy, I have vivid memories of chopping down trees myself so size means nothing to me. Size is no indicator of fighting ability. So I don't ever buy the "look how much bigger Khali is" schtick. For that reason, he's useless as far as I'm concerned. If his only selling point is his physical stature and not what he can do in the ring or on the mic, he's a waste of flesh and any time he spends on my TV screen is a good time to go to the bathroom or make a sandwich or do my taxes or get a root canal (all of which are vastly more entertaining than Khali).[/QUOTE] By his very nature, Khali isn't going to be liked by smarks, but WWE don't make the show for smarks. They make it for marks, who, as Chris noted, don't rate things in the same way you do. Most of us here agree with you, but we're a small percentage of the audience. To the little kids dragging their parents to shows, and buying t-shirts, he's a credible, scary monster. [I](Quick Note. I use 'marks' and 'smarks' purely as a term to differentiate fans. I do not mean them as insults in the slightest. Some could say I should use 'smart' to describe the type of fans we have here, but I find that insulting to the 'non-educated' fan.)[/I] [QUOTE=BlueStar;476330]To be honest, I never understood why the public (both mainstream and the smarks) liked the Rock. Then again, I don't understand why smarks hated the Warrior but loved a guy like Foley. On a personal basis, yes, I understand. People like Foley and Funk put the $ss's on the line for the business, while Warrior was some roided up guy. But still, whenever Warrior came out, at his height in WWF, the crowd went crazy.[/QUOTE] The Rock has charisma. He has Star Quality. He has that special something about him that makes you sit up and pay attention. Marks liked him because he was (after a little stumble) booked in a strong, positive way, had some cool catchphrases and did some nifty moves. Smarks liked him because he had great entertainment skills and his in-ring skills were also very good. His punches were awesome. We also secretly liked his catchphrases. Foley is just a likeable guy. He's a goofy lug who if I met in a bar, I could probably have a conversation with. He's one of the few Main Event players who I could relate to. His fallibility is endearing. The Warrior character was cool, but... I don't know. He was actually a little before my time.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Christian. Oh my God, Christian. If they ****ed up with somebody hard, it must be Christian. The number of times this guy could've been pushed - that WMXX moment was GOLD and was supposed to propel him towards the main-event scene, or at least a decent push, but what the hell did they do? Stuck him against Y2J for all that time, and then started a jobber tag team with freakin' Tomko. Honestly, what the hell. That's the first moment they could've pushed him. Second moment? During 05, his animosity with John Cena while they were on different brands. They had him take shots at Cena on Raw here and there while Cena was wreaking havoc on SmackDown!(who can remember Marky Mark, ha), he started slowly getting into the main-event and stuff, being in angles with Triple H and whatnot. This could've played perfectly and they ACTUALLY capitalized on it... for three seconds. A title shot at Vengeance was good, until they moved him to SmackDown! and flat out SHAT on him. I was appalled, saddened.. jobbing to Booker and Benoit for Christ's sake. And also getting squashed by Batista a few times. In a way, I was glad Christian left the WWE because they don't deserve him. At the same time, I would've loved to see him climb the ranks in the WWE and show his true main-event potential, but instead there's "nonsense-booking" TNA to do that now.

[lordprimeau25]

I would actually argue that Christian may be the superstar who WWE failed to push who had the most unrealized potential. As bad as TNA does booking him, I think his work in TNA is superior to what many of their main event heels have done recently aside from maybe Edge.

[scorpion]

I agree. Christian was on fire at that time, and WWE blew it. That was when I really became a Christian fan and I couldn't believe they just halted his push for no reason. The most memorable part for me was an exchange he had with flair. I don't remember what was said, but as Flair walked away Christian quips, "I hate that guy." I remember reading at the time that some WWE creative team member, when asked about it, responded that they had pushed Christian farther then he had ever been, wasn't that enough?

[AfRoMaN36]

[QUOTE=scorpion;479205] I remember reading at the time that some WWE creative team member, when asked about it, responded that they had pushed Christian farther then he had ever been, wasn't that enough?[/QUOTE] I sort of see the point. You don't need a world title to be validated. RVD never cared and one can't argue he had a great career in both the WWE and ECW. (despite eventually winning it) Christian was hot after that feud I'll admit. And at that time it was the hardest he'd ever been pushed. And though he didn't become the next Triple H, He was still a solid upper midcarder to the end. Had alot of charisma, and his stuff with Goldberg was funny as hell. Though I honestly feel that some fans here live in this kayfabe world where if you don't have a belt, you don't mean anything. And we really need to change that thought.I can write you a long list of guys with excellent to hall of fame careers who never held the big one.

[scorpion]

[QUOTE=AfRoMaN36;479211]I sort of see the point. You don't need a world title to be validated. RVD never cared and one can't argue he had a great career in both the WWE and ECW. (despite eventually winning it) Christian was hot after that feud I'll admit. And at that time it was the hardest he'd ever been pushed. And though he didn't become the next Triple H, He was still a solid upper midcarder to the end. Had alot of charisma, and his stuff with Goldberg was funny as hell. Though I honestly feel that some fans here live in this kayfabe world where if you don't have a belt, you don't mean anything. And we really need to change that thought.I can write you a long list of guys with excellent to hall of fame careers who never held the big one.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying he should have won a belt (at that point), but they just completely jobbed him down the tube. They didn't even give him a program with Cena after all that build, they just had one match and it was done.

[The Shape]

Christian could have been a legit main event draw and a huge figure if used differently I feel, what stands out is Mania 20 where he beat Jericho thanks to Trish's betrayal...that combination could have seen him rise up the card just like the Lita/Rated R **** would eventually do for Edge.

[djthefunkchris]

I think the Edge vs. Cena is what did it for me, moreso then Lita/Rated R (although the gimmick is gold). Eventually I wanted to see Edge win. I think 90% of wrestling fans wanted to see Edge win eventually. Before those feuds, I don't think I thought of Edge as a main eventer, and I know I didn't see Orton (and still have a problem at times) as a Main Eventer. EDIT: Not sure how I would have done Christian back then, but I think he's a TOP, if not the VERY TOP heel to have for TNA. He can stay in the Main Event for years, and I would believe in him.

[Self]

I like Christian. I loved the "5 Second Pose" thing. I felt pride when I saw him rise up the card. However, he's never looked like a real main event player to me. He just doesn't look like he could win a fight. Edge had height. Edge could play crazy. Even now in TNA, I don't see Christian as a legitimate threat to anybody. Oh, and I'm totally with Afroman about the belt thing.

[James Casey]

Skipped a bit of the topic, and I certainly agree with Christian as the biggest missed opportunity WWE have had in recent years (although Muhammad Hassan, played straight as an arrow as an angry/disaapointed Arab American could have been all shades of greatness...) However, going back in time to the kayfabe era, to a time whn the heels never had lengthy runs with the World title... Jake Roberts and Rick Rude. Both had their prime years in the WWF, both bounced around the upper card, both had their moments... I know that it was said that Jake was so effective that he didn't [I]need[/I] a belt - that his gimmick was just being the outsider, who didn't care about titles, and just fought because he could. But if he was around today, he could have been WWE's top heel. As for Rude, here was a legitimate badass (the stories I've heard put him up there in the Vader and Meng category) who could have a good match with darn near anyone. How he never got the chance to face off against Hogan I'll never know, but I guess he had to pay his dues with Warrior first. Still, two feuds with Warrior in the space of eighteen months was a bit too much - diminishing returns and all that. Even when he had his big money feud with Sting in WCW it was over the US title - the collapse of the Dangerous Alliance under Bill Watts severely damaged Rude's career on the cusp of greatness, and he's end up spending the last few years of his life pretty much as an observer, which to me is hugely sad.

[CraigInTwinCities]

I can understand the argument for Christian, but to be honest, I never thought he was in Edge's league, nor is he now. I'd certainly never believe him going up against Cena and winning, let alone Orton. When it comes to current heels, I'd take Orton over Christian Cage any day of the week, and twice on a PPV Sunday! (And I certainly love the potential of those following in his footsteps right now, Cody Rhodes and Ted DiBiase Jr. ... those two have future main eventer written all over them, though maybe five years down the line or so.) But I do think WWE has missed on some workers. For example, I think they still haven't learned to book Jeff Hardy as a main eventer, and he'd definitely worthy, while Matt will always be upper midcard at best. Also, and this might be controversial, but I think if they dropped the comedy act and played Carlito straight, he could go a lot further than he has. At some point, I'd love to see Cena go back to being a heel for a nice stretch of time. His early WWE work as a SmackDown heel was some of his best. Trouble is, to maintain some of the best matches, that would require face-turns from folks like Orton, which I'm not sure ever sold well. Orton is best as a heel. I think WWE mismanaged Lesnar, overpushing him early so that he got ****y and thought he didn't need WWE and could excel at anything. Flopping as a Viking and losing his first MMA match have not humbled him at all. I think The Great Khali should be the Andre the Giant of today, but WWE just doesn't know how to book monsters like Khali anymore. They totally screwed up Paul Wight's career, though Big Show had some self-destructive issues of his own, like a pathetic work ethic... All that said, they've also managed some careers quite well. Orton and Cena are the two best examples in terms of current hot stars. Edge has always been handled well, also.

[shamelessposer]

[QUOTE=AfRoMaN36;479211]I sort of see the point. You don't need a world title to be validated. RVD never cared and one can't argue he had a great career in both the WWE and ECW.[/QUOTE] RVD didn't have half the WWE career he should have had considering how over he was. His main event push was stalled a couple of times, then his program against Triple H was so misbooked that burying RVD was the only creative decision that made sense. RVD was putting on match of the night candidates with Tajiri, and his reward was a bunch of complaints about "not having enough psychology." But that happens when you're not interested in playing politics. He was the guy who decided to be Shawn Stasiak's traveling buddy even when Stasiak was [i]the[/i] pariah of the locker room.

[scorpion]

[QUOTE=Self;479244]I like Christian. I loved the "5 Second Pose" thing. I felt pride when I saw him rise up the card. However, he's never looked like a real main event player to me. He just doesn't look like he could win a fight. Edge had height. Edge could play crazy. Even now in TNA, I don't see Christian as a legitimate threat to anybody. Oh, and I'm totally with Afroman about the belt thing.[/QUOTE] But who said anything about he having to win the belt? Afroman quoted and responded to me, then argued about something I never said. And it really doesn't matter what you or I think, the fans were buying into Christian at that point. He didn't need to win the belt, but they could have at least given him a program. Instead, they jobbed him out in the first match, sent him to Smackdown and jobbed him some more. That whole series of events is why he went to TNA.

[AfRoMaN36]

[QUOTE=shamelessposer;479532]RVD didn't have half the WWE career he should have had considering how over he was. His main event push was stalled a couple of times, then his program against Triple H was so misbooked that burying RVD was the only creative decision that made sense. RVD was putting on match of the night candidates with Tajiri, and his reward was a bunch of complaints about "not having enough psychology." But that happens when you're not interested in playing politics. He was the guy who decided to be Shawn Stasiak's traveling buddy even when Stasiak was [i]the[/i] pariah of the locker room.[/QUOTE] Thats just it... RVD didn't care. He didn't play politics, he didn't sleep with anyone he didn't want to. He went in there, with no interest in how far he actually got and got farther then most wrestlers ever dreamed of just trying to make enough money to retire early. Yeah, he didn't win as many world titles, but in the end, can you say he had a bad career there? [QUOTE=scorpion;479571]But who said anything about he having to win the belt? Afroman quoted and responded to me, then argued about something I never said. [/QUOTE] That argument wasn't intended just for you. It was a general statement for people who feel that if X wrestler isn't world champ, then he isn't being used right.

[Self]

[QUOTE=scorpion;479571]But who said anything about he having to win the belt? Afroman quoted and responded to me, then argued about something I never said.[/QUOTE] Afroman's right again. Just a general statement, not directed at anybody in particular.

[lordprimeau25]

I agree that a person doesn't need a belt to be validated. I also agree that Christian was crapped on by not at least given a lengthy main event program. Until a month ago I would say Christian was the better of the two (Edge). In recent weeks however Edge has definitely swayed my thoughts. He is truly the top heel in WWE. I still think on charisma alone, Cage is better. But it has brought up that he doesn't quite have an intimidating enough look, and to that I agree. Still has the look to play a cheating, arrogant heel though. BTW (imo) we haven't seen the last of RVD (fingers crossed).

[panix04]

I completely forgot about Val Venis. That guy had, and still really has it all. Great mic guy, great look, good build, can work a decent match and I really thought it was going to happen for him at one point and it just never did, hasn't been booked well, which is a shame, if i was booking the WWE the big valboski would be getting a super-push, just 'cos of his loyalty!

[cappyboy]

[QUOTE=panix04;483080]I completely forgot about Val Venis. That guy had, and still really has it all. Great mic guy, great look, good build, can work a decent match and I really thought it was going to happen for him at one point and it just never did, hasn't been booked well, which is a shame, if i was booking the WWE the big valboski would be getting a super-push, just 'cos of his loyalty![/QUOTE] Agreed. Look how JBL got the world title. That was essentially a loyalty push too. Well combined with a new gimmick taking off to the moon. When Cena was hurt and they needed a new title holder, that could have been a natural time for a Val loyalty reign. There was a vacuum at the top and they could have played the "how long can the scrappy vet hang onto it" card. If folks didn't buy in, just shuffle it onto someone more universally credible and it makes Val more impressive as a youth polisher. If it does take off, you've found a diamond in the rough.

[lordprimeau25]

If you remember, they had a poll on WWE.com at the time asking the fans who they would like to see become champion and Val won a landslide.

[lazorbeak]

I'm surprised there isn't more discussion of Carlito- he's pretty much the poster boy for underachieving. I have no idea why he isn't on Smackdown every week though, since he would be guaranteed strong reactions from the Latino crowd, especially as a face. I also have to wonder if anyone will ever care about Shelton Benjamin, and why Shelton is being repackaged into the Hardy feud, instead of using Elijah Burke. I also think Randy Orton is a huge underachiever. He could be fired tomorrow and I'm not sure anyone would care. He couldn't cut a promo, he couldn't look natural in angles or segments, and his title run was godawful, a never-ending parade of him getting beaten up and then getting DQed. That gave him a certain amount of heat from the fans, but just because they didn't want to see him with the belt, not because they actually disliked him. Once the belt was gone, the heat was gone, too. Compare that to Edge- fans want to see Edge set on fire and murdered in the ring, and he's not even the champ.

[The Shape]

Orton's face title reign was crap but his heel one recently I found enjoyable from what I saw...and he can cut a promo :rolleyes: