Underrated Wrestlers

[justtxyank]

Who are some of wrestlers who you feel have been underrated or underutilized in the last 15 years or so? Either they never get credit for their work rate, history has just forgotten how good they were, or bookers of the day didn't use them right. Try not to name guys who have been world champions or are in the hall of fame. For me, two that come to mind right away are Perry Saturn and Arn Anderson. Saturn was always a great worker in my mind and he was very over in WCW. I never understood why they did some of the weird stuff with him that they did, and then why his push just never went anywhere. As for Double A, he was more entertaining to me than Ric Flair was, but he was always in his shadow.

[cappyboy]

[QUOTE=justtxyank;505226]Who are some of wrestlers who you feel have been underrated or underutilized in the last 15 years or so? Either they never get credit for their work rate, history has just forgotten how good they were, or bookers of the day didn't use them right. Try not to name guys who have been world champions or are in the hall of fame. For me, two that come to mind right away are Perry Saturn and Arn Anderson. Saturn was always a great worker in my mind and he was very over in WCW. I never understood why they did some of the weird stuff with him that they did, and then why his push just never went anywhere. As for Double A, he was more entertaining to me than Ric Flair was, but he was always in his shadow.[/QUOTE] Saturn I'll agree with. Once they got him out of ECW and he got to work on bigger stages, the dude was remarkable. And the crap he was willing to put up with and work to put over would have killed the careers of lesser men. But Arn Anderson? In the words of Kurt Angle, "I'd like to say PUH. And may I add LEESE?!!" Arn Anderson was part of one of the biggest stables in wrestling history in the Four Horsemen and two legendary tag teams. The Minnesota Wrecking Crew and The Brain Busters. He's widely regarded as one of the best pure ring men in the history of the biz. So just on that level, I don't think he really qualifies for this discussion. But I'll go you one further. More entertaining than Flair? Dude, entertainment was never Arn's game. He couldn't have cared less (in character) about entertaining people. I hear people on the Net gush about Arn Anderson and his charisma and I just want to shake them until their brains rattle. Arn was never about charisma. As Dusty Rhodes so aptly put it, Arn Anderson was "a walk behinder." Arn had the charisma of the water glass sitting on my desk here at the moment. The thing Arn Anderson had is what any truly great vocal bad ass has had. Conviction. You were never going to get charisma or showmanship out of Arn Anderson. But when he spoke a word, you could be damn sure he meant it. You want a better guy for this subject? I give you Barry Darsow. Now there's an underrated performer. He had greater charisma than I ever saw from Arn. While Arn was busy Enforcing and being an ice-cold SOB, Darsow was had at work getting under people's skin and making them clamor for whoever his face opponent was to beat him just so he'd shut up. Be it as Smash in Demolition, The Blacktop Bully or Repo Man, Darsow played the belligerent loudmouth irritant like nobody's business. Forget the World Title. I know that's a pipe dream. But how he never got to hold a major singles title on the I-C/US Title level just boggles my mind. He might have been merely average in the ring but from the charisma/character perspective, Darsow is brutally underrated.

[justtxyank]

By more entertaining I meant in the ring for Arn. I always enjoyed his matches more than Flair. I disagree with you about his mic skills, but nonetheless, I would never suggest he was a better talker than Ric Flair who might very well be the best talker ever. As for being part of this discussion, he probably doesn't belong in a traditional sense, but I don't believe casual fans know how good he was. After 1997 he just kind of became the old guy with the big glasses.

[cappyboy]

[QUOTE=justtxyank;505248]By more entertaining I meant in the ring for Arn. I always enjoyed his matches more than Flair. I disagree with you about his mic skills, but nonetheless, I would never suggest he was a better talker than Ric Flair who might very well be the best talker ever.[/QUOTE] Dude, I'm not turfing Arn's mic skills at all. I'm just saying he had a different kind of mic skill. It was never his job to talk people into their seats. He was too tight and focused a personality for that. His job was to make them fear for the health of their favorites. A job he ruled the school at. Listening to folks talk about Arn Anderson's "charisma" is like listening to them bag on Chris Benoit's interview skills because he wasn't screaming to the rafters like a Sting. Both Benoit and Arn were fabulous at the job when they were on the mic. It's just that folks need to shut up about "charisma" sometimes and recognize factors like the conviction like an Arn and or a Benoit specialized in. [QUOTE=justtxyank;505248]As for being part of this discussion, he probably doesn't belong in a traditional sense, but I don't believe casual fans know how good he was. After 1997 he just kind of became the old guy with the big glasses.[/QUOTE] Okay. I can buy that. A few years ago you could have made that last statement and I'd have questioned the value of what the Johnny come latelys thought. But it being over a decade since what you consider the transition point, I can see your point. The guys who jumped in circa 1997 for the Attitude era and stuck around are now themselves part of the base audience. And those guys probably do know Arn best for his personality work after he retired from the ring.

[BurningHamster]

Yeah Perry Saturn is one of those guys who seemed to get lost in the shuffle a bit. I think the main thing with Saturn was that in terms of charisma, he wasn't up there with a lot of other workers, and in terms of in-ring ability he was always a shade behind the likes of Benoit, Malenko and Guerrero. Still an awesome worker who just seemed to never get a strong push. I still love his tag match with Raven against Benoit and Malenko from WCW, not sure why that one stuck in my mind as being one of the better tag matches of that time. In terms of other underrated guys I can't really go past Tajiri, I mean he had a good run in ECW and was treated better than most cruiserweights in WWE but still, I just don't think the average person picks up on how athletic he was or how downright charismatic he is. He could have been a silent film actor with the expressions and body language he used in the ring, I don't know if any other wrestler could communicate so much without saying anything. Yeah, I'm a Tajiri mark :p

[Comradebot]

James Maritato gets my vote. He's always entertained me on the mic, and in the ring he's pure genius. Sadly, he's what... 5'7'"? That's an inch shorter than me. When you're as small as he is, people almost demand you're a high flier. Instead he's very technical minded, and I really think his size holds him back from being considered the technical machine he wants to be. I am glad to see that he still works, even if its become painfully obvious that he'll never see any true fame in the WWE. But I can't watch the man in a match and NOT be entertained. Little Guido, you rock. As for the guy who said Tajiri, I completely agree. He's insanely talented, and when booked properly is a downright scary performer. He's a cold-hearted, stiff kicking badass... not comic relief. But hey, WWE likes to do stupid ****. Maybe Tajiri's style wasn't "Sports Entertainment" enough for em and they forced him to tone it down? Seems like that's what they expect from everyone. I'm not a huge ECW fan, yet bring up two of their alumni... shocking!

[Prophet]

[QUOTE=BurningHamster;505406]In terms of other underrated guys I can't really go past Tajiri, I mean he had a good run in ECW and was treated better than most cruiserweights in WWE but still, I just don't think the average person picks up on how athletic he was or how downright charismatic he is. He could have been a silent film actor with the expressions and body language he used in the ring, I don't know if any other wrestler could communicate so much without saying anything. Yeah, I'm a Tajiri mark :p[/QUOTE] Absolute truth! I would definitely put Tajiri on that list. I'm tempted to say Corino, as he was a great talent, and extremely charismatic, but he's had major success outside of the mainstream. And I'm sure he's better known than I may be giving him credit for. Another one in the more underutilized category, which when talking about the WWE, could be a long list of people, is Taz. Taz was a bad, bad man, and the WWE turned him into a punk. He won the ECW title, as a favor to Heyman, and turned around, and jobbed badly to HHH. He became this cartoon character challenging big men to matches, and taking longer to get to the ring, than he spent wrestling. Taz had the look, the talent, the charisma, and the skill to put on a great match, and could've been a top dog, especially with his ECW momentum, and they ruined him. Well, that, and the years of pounding his neck took.

[ThriceP86]

Jamie F'n Noble!!!! I might only being saying this because I absolutely loved him in ROH and even though he has gotten exposure with some of the "underdog" storylines he's been in but it still does not do him justice. And then WWE retiring the cruiserweight belt hurts him too... before jobbing him out to Hornswoggle! Argh! Typing this crap makes me angry how underutilized Noble is... Another note: This may or may not be true but I heard from a good friend of mine that Noble helped HBK shed ring rust before he came back during that time off he had. And apparently HBK got that new submission from Noble as well...

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=justtxyank;505248]As for being part of this discussion, he probably doesn't belong in a traditional sense, but I don't believe casual fans know how good he was. After 1997 he just kind of became the old guy with the big glasses.[/QUOTE] Well, if we're talking about folks "the casual fan" didn't know about or give proper credit to, the list could go on forever. In my mind, the hallmark of the casual fan is that they don't care who is good at what they do or not. All they care about is who is currently being pushed in front of their faces. If we're talking people who the casual fan isn't "up on": Lisa Varon (Victoria) - Hear me out. Yes, she's been a constant in WWE's women's division for years but I don't think the casual fan really knows just how good, as well as how hardcore and tough, this woman is. She worked eight months with a torn ligament in her knee. Eight months. She worked with the greenest in-ring performers known to man and still managed to coax watchable matches out of them. When you have people like Ashley Massaro and Candice Michelle on the roster (people who get themselves hurt due to their own lack of basic skill), that's saying something. Lisa Moretti (Ivory) - Same deal. She was tough as a box of carpet tacks but never got credit for being excellent between the ropes. Anyone who even fixes their lips to say Trish Stratus could hold a candle to either of these women in the ring, needs to get their head examined (or educate themselves on wrestling), in my opinion. Those two immediately come to mind but Sho Funaki, Yoshihiro Asai (Ultimo Dragon), Lance Storm, Ron Simmons, Malia Hosaka, Lexie Fyfe, Ayumi "mini Kawada" Kurihara, Kaoru Ito, Megumi Kudo, Mariko Yoshida (remember, we're talking about "the casual fan"), Chaparrita Asari, Stan Hansen, Vader, jeez I could go on and on and on. The casual fan probably has no idea how good these people are at what they do and how significant their contributions are to the product they consume regularly.

[James Casey]

I'd like to think that the casual fan would know how good Vader was - but it's clear he fell victim to the Hogan effect in WCW probably more than anyone, given how far he had to fall. His move to WWE should have seen him becoming huge - but it just didn't happen, for a lot of reasons. Imagine what might have happened if, in 1991/1992, Vader had gone to WWF and WCW had signed Yokozuna? * My personal pick for underrated... Not sure. There's a lot of [I]overrated[/I] workers out there... I think I'll probably go for Noble and Shane/Greg/Hurricane Helms, becuase I know what these guys can do and it makes me sadthat I don't see them winning more matches. It's great that the likes of Brian Kendrick are getting a push at the top of the card, but Noble and Helms could be our generation's Anderson - or even Barry Windham. All the talent and charisma in the world but, for whatever reason, it just hasn't happened. * And while we're on the subject, [I]how[/I] did Barry Windham not make it at the very top of the business?

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

Chris Masters. That guy was awesome, how the hell is he not a world champion right now?

[Self]

There's more that could have been done with 99% of wrestlers, particularly the smaller guys. Although the fact that they are smaller can't be overlooked. Sure it's fake. Sure Jamie Noble could beat The Big Show, but I think there's a big percentage of the wrestling audience, particularly WWE audience, that wouldn't buy it. The internet wrestling community blames booking for a lot of the small guys not making it to the top, top level, but their size is an undeniable factor, and not just in the mind of Vince McMahon. That being said, a lot of them could have done more. I would have loved to have seen Tajiri at the WWE main event level. His kicks were awesome. A legitimate way to take down even the biggest opponent. It made him different too, which is always nice. Helms & Noble still have time to go to the next level, but while they're great workers, I don't think they can be legitimate superstars. Actually... they probably can, but it would be far easier to elevate others. In my opinion, it wouldn't be worth the effort. How many t-shirts is Jamie Noble, Submission Expert going to sell? Steve Corino ruled in ECW. Loved it.

[Comradebot]

[QUOTE=Mr T Jobs To Me;505462]Chris Masters. That guy was awesome, how the hell is he not a world champion right now?[/QUOTE] My guess? They forced him off the roids and he got all deflated... it really did kill the momentum he had. Shame, he had more going for him than just a crazy built look.

[Derek B]

I'm glad I'm not the only person that thought Masters had a lot going for him. I still say all it would've taken to push him up to the main event would me a Fishermen's Suplex as an alternate finisher... we might get to see him up there one day, I really hope so cos he's one of only a handful of guys I've said "future World champion" about in the last few years.

[justtxyank]

Lance Storm is a good name. Always a favorite of mine. WCW dying is to blame for him making this list though, because he was a big part of that company as it died.

[Marshall]

I think Christopher Daniels goes in this category too. He's been an indy star for basically as long as indies have existed, but has never really had the chance to shine on the big time level that he perhaps should have. Fluid and like poetry in the ring, fantastic on the mic and even an awesome character in the Fallen Angel couldn't get him a main event push. What it comes down to, I assume, is that perhaps he is too small for that main event run. TNA really botched his feud with Sting, because that could have been a great little feud, but Sting essentially killed Daniels and that spelt the end for the great Fallen Angel character. I would love to see TNA give Daniels a decent run as a legitimate heel in the Fallen Angel role. He has proven himself to be an exceptional worker in the ring, has the ability to cut intriguing promos and most importantly is not a WWE cast-off. Daniels is loyal to TNA, and that is vital for them in a time when rumours are running rampant of Team 3D, Christian Cage and Gail Kim all apparently jumping back to the WWE, if you believe all that you read. Once Kurt Angle's finished elevating AJ Styles, a Styles-Fallen Angel feud for the top strap would be amazing.

[cappyboy]

[QUOTE=Comradebot;505409]James Maritato gets my vote. He's always entertained me on the mic, and in the ring he's pure genius. Sadly, he's what... 5'7'"? That's an inch shorter than me. When you're as small as he is, people almost demand you're a high flier. Instead he's very technical minded, and I really think his size holds him back from being considered the technical machine he wants to be. I am glad to see that he still works, even if its become painfully obvious that he'll never see any true fame in the WWE. But I can't watch the man in a match and NOT be entertained. Little Guido, you rock. [/QUOTE] Amen, Brudda. Maritato is a prime example of why I don't like "World Wrestling Entertainment" as a name for what folks still want to call the WWF. If they really cared about the full spectrum of entertainment, Guido would be so much further up the roster than he is. Being so small, he's a lot more relatable to the average fan than big hulking beasts like Khali or Batista. And many times when he's in character segments, it's like Maritato couldn't care less he's one of the smallest dogs in the yard. He's tough, he knows it and he will milk that fact for all that he's worth. And on top of that, he knows how not to take all that too seriously. He can still be loose and have fun with life in the process. If WWE truly got the E part, Guido would regularly be in the US or IC mix. At the world title level, I don't know if I could see him there. But I-C definitely. [QUOTE=ThriceP86;505434]Jamie F'n Noble!!!! I might only being saying this because I absolutely loved him in ROH and even though he has gotten exposure with some of the "underdog" storylines he's been in but it still does not do him justice. And then WWE retiring the cruiserweight belt hurts him too... before jobbing him out to Hornswoggle! Argh! Typing this crap makes me angry how underutilized Noble is... [/QUOTE] I don't know I'd say this actually. On the one hand, you could make the case that Jamie would be much higher up the card and also be in the regular US/I-C mix like Guido if they truly got the entertainment dimension at the E. But Noble's had some pretty good moments with Stamford. There was the surprise Billy and Torri and Jamie and Nidia foursome. Heck the whole cycle with Nidia actually. The feud with Tajiri. The recent stuff with him talking into himself into beatings he could have avoided. He even made that storyline with Hornswoggle you are understandably bemoaning more entertaining than it deserved to be. Especially with the belt getting retired as it did. And let's not overlook how much the broadcast team talks about Noble being pound for pound one of the toughest guys on the roster and his pit bull tenacity. Folks might not get the full depth of Noble's talent but there are many wrestlers much more underrated than him. My boy Barry Darsow only wishes he'd had the creative energy put behind him that Jamie Noble has gotten. [QUOTE=Remianen;505445] Lisa Moretti (Ivory) - Same deal. She was tough as a box of carpet tacks but never got credit for being excellent between the ropes. Anyone who even fixes their lips to say Trish Stratus could hold a candle to either of these women in the ring, needs to get their head examined (or educate themselves on wrestling), in my opinion. [/QUOTE] Oh definitely. And I think it really comes down to one thing. GLOW. Folks seem to have a really hard time getting past the fact that she started off in that sex circus. But if you want to talk a complete package, that's Ivory. Ring talent. Charisma. Conviction. Whatever you wanted out of Ivory, you could get it. She was just that versatile a performer. But I do need to take Remi to task for Trish Stratus slam here as well. Trish is probably the female equivalent of Arn Anderson as far as this topic goes. The hall of fame rep. Highly decorated and recognized for it. So clearly not under-rated in the true sense of the word. But like Arn, I would say Trish's best asset gets badly overlooked. Just as Arn was the master of brutal honesty in interview, so Trish was the master of facial expression. Look back at the women's matches of old. The Sue Green/Donna Christenello battles. The times of like the Grable sisters and Betty Nicoli and such. You'll find that often even when the ladies weren't selling a match with their bodies, they would sell the punishment they were taking with their faces and voices. Pained grimaces, primal screams, pounding the mat in frustration. Expressions and gestures that made up for struggles bumping. Nobody but NOBODY in modern times has exemplified this forgotten art of expressive selling like Trish Stratus. Forget the casual fan. Even highly knowledgeable fans like Remi have an apparent desire to overlook that. And personally I find it silly. Trish may never have been Lance Storm with estrogen ring-wise. But she was very much a classic women's wrestler. But yet people seek to deny that because of the physical attributes that were valued during her run. Factors that were not in her control and to me that just feels wrong.

[ThriceP86]

[QUOTE=cappyboy;505507] I don't know I'd say this actually. On the one hand, you could make the case that Jamie would be much higher up the card and also be in the regular US/I-C mix like Guido if they truly got the entertainment dimension at the E. But Noble's had some pretty good moments with Stamford. There was the surprise Billy and Torri and Jamie and Nidia foursome. Heck the whole cycle with Nidia actually. The feud with Tajiri. The recent stuff with him talking into himself into beatings he could have avoided. He even made that storyline with Hornswoggle you are understandably bemoaning more entertaining than it deserved to be. Especially with the belt getting retired as it did. And let's not overlook how much the broadcast team talks about Noble being pound for pound one of the toughest guys on the roster and his pit bull tenacity. Folks might not get the full depth of Noble's talent but there are many wrestlers much more underrated than him. My boy Barry Darsow only wishes he'd had the creative energy put behind him that Jamie Noble has gotten. [/QUOTE] Yeah, true. Noble has a lot of success with WWE and they have done a lot of creative things with him. I almost forgot about his feud with Tajiri and that feud was great. I guess I'm just such a huge fan of his that I lost sight of all the things you just pointed out. And you are definitely right about him making the storyline with Hornswoggle very entertaining. I guess, in a weird way, he is capable of being in angles/storylines but he is always on the losing end. So a storyline jobber... I guess that isn't as bad as it sounds. Plus, I do like how they were using him to transition Kane into the evil monster again. I think that also shows how great of a character, as well as wrestler, Jamie Noble really is.

[DaMegaFish]

James Storm. That guys facial hair should get him a world title run alone. Seriously though, Storm has always impressed me more than Chris Harris ever did. His catchphrase isn't terrible either so I guess thats more upside to him in my mind at least.

[Comradebot]

[QUOTE=DaMegaFish;505535]James Storm. That guys facial hair should get him a world title run alone. Seriously though, Storm has always impressed me more than Chris Harris ever did. His catchphrase isn't terrible either so I guess thats more upside to him in my mind at least.[/QUOTE] I like James Storm, but he doesn't really come off as "world championship" material. He's someone I'd love to have in a midcard, but right now... he reminds me alot of Jeff Jarrett at the same point in his career. I think James Storm will have a decent career, but he'd do himself well to distance himself form Robert Roode. Thankfully I think TNA have realized that Storm actually knows how to work a mic, meanwhile Roode is like some sort of charisma blackhole, sucking any and all entertainment out of the segment when he speaks. As such, I've seen Storm getting the majority of the talk time. Even in ring, Storm is leaps and bounds ahead of Roode. As I said, I like James Storm, but he definetly comes off to me as a Big Bossman/Val Venis type. He's got some talent, but I think at best he'll probably only see a rare shot at a major world title, but never win it. Maybe this will hold true, or maybe I'll find out James Storm is the greatest thing in wrestling history and is only being held back by his association with that useless tub of lard Robert Roode. True story: I once had a nightmare that Robert Roode, The Great Khali, and The Miz had a triple threat match while Jeff Hardy and Blandy Orton did commentary... I woke up screaming, dripping in a cold sweat.

[BurningHamster]

[QUOTE=cappyboy;505507]Trish may never have been Lance Storm with estrogen ring-wise. [/QUOTE] Would we have wanted her to be? Lance Storm is probably the most overrated underrated wrestler around. Agile, graceful, technically sound, extremely disciplined but I cannot for the life of me recall him having a particularly memorable match. Totally agree on the suggestions of Jamie Knoble, Maritato and Ivory though. Knoble especially, he is so good in the ring and also very talented on the mic .... it's a bloody crime that he doesn't get more recognition. Anyone who is that good at anything deserves to be a multi-millionaire.

[angeldelayette]

[QUOTE=BurningHamster;505553]Would we have wanted her to be? Lance Storm is probably the most overrated underrated wrestler around. Agile, graceful, technically sound, extremely disciplined but I cannot for the life of me recall him having a particularly memorable match. Totally agree on the suggestions of Jamie Knoble, Maritato and Ivory though. Knoble especially, he is so good in the ring and also very talented on the mic .... it's a bloody crime that he doesn't get more recognition. Anyone who is that good at anything deserves to be a multi-millionaire.[/QUOTE] A memorable match for Lance Storm that comes to mind right off the top of my head is his match with Rob Van Dam at ECW's first pay-per-view! That match was amazing.

[scorpion]

I'll go out on the limb with an unpopular pick (but this is about underrated wrestlers, right?) and say Jeff Jarrett. There's a lot of criticism of him out there, and a lot of it is deserved. But, since he's come back, he's been on fire. His promo work lately has been hands down the best of his career, and probably the best stuff in TNA right now. Much like Jericho, he's given his character a much more serious tone and its working. I'm actually looking forward to his match with Angle.

[Astil]

Paul London, Umaga (Had it all going for him, then ... nothing), Daniels, and so many more. I'd love to see the smaller wrestlers get some love.

[Prophet]

I gotta mention another one. A personal favorite of mine, who has become nothing but a memory in the WWE, which honestly saddens me ... Elijah Burke. How that man is regulated to dark matches, or undercard tour duty is beyond me. Unless I missed his being injured for the past year, there is no reason why he isn't main eventing one of the three shows. He has the look, he has the talent, the man is a genius on the microphone, he's innovative in his offense, and he (unlike quite a few I've seen) can sell! Elijah Burke for world champ!