The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[consortium11]

Whereas CM Punk and Rey Mysterio are guys who create new moves and new variations that crowds haven't seen before.

 

I'd be a bit hesitant about saying Punk "creates" new moves. One of the defining characteristics of his WWE run has been how much he's... I guess the polite term would be "borrowed" from others, both with his moveset and some of his punchlines.

 

Excluding the obvious tribute with his elbow drop, the GTS is exactly the same as KENTA's (down to the same name), the Anaconda Vice is basically Hiroyoshi Tenzan's Anaconda Cross and he's been known to throw some busaiku knees in his time. He also briefly started to use Bryan Danielson's arm trap elbow strikes.

 

With regards to his punchlines, the ones that stick out are his "I'm not trapped in here with you, you're not trapped in here with me" at Elimination Chamber (from Watchmen) and the recent "Your arms are too short to box with God" (from a 1927 Sermon, a broadway musical and a bunch of hip-hop songs).

 

That's not an outright criticism; most of the US audience will never have seen the Japanese wrestlers Punk has borrowed moves from (and its unlikely they ever will) and much of Punks talent comes from his delivery of lines but it's still a bit of a... well, not an issue but not something great either. Especially with regards to moves, which a lot of pro-wrestlers can be a bit sensitive about. There's a bit of hypocrisy there as well... one of the reasons Punk and Hart got into a fight back in their TNA days was over Hart simply taking other peoples moves and using them (as well as Hart generally being an arrogant jerk).

 

Rey's been known to borrow a move or two in his time as well.

 

I'm on the Raven bandwagon of "you only need 5". However, I like to see variety and innovation in getting those moves. Randy Orton has a bunch of different ways to get to the RKO. Punk, Mysterio, Jericho... they get to their limited WWE movesets in unlimited ways. Which makes them interesting. Stuff happens and then WOAH he's going for the Walls of Jericho. Or it's a wacky running sequence and Drop Toe Hold! Dial it up, Rey! The 5 moves of doom feels flat when it's the exact same sequence done in the exact same way every time. Oddly enough, something you can pin of Bret doing in his prime.

 

It's also a case of evolving your moveset.

 

To take Punk as a simple example when he first came into the WWE his main moves were the corner knee/bulldog, Anaconda Vice, the rope-assisted chicken wing, springboard clotheslines, some busaiku knees and the slap, slap, backfist, high kick, Rock Bottom combo into the Anaconda Vice. The only one that really remains a regular move out of those is the knee/bulldog combination (although the Vice is used somewhat regularly).

 

Even Cena, the most loathed of the five moves of doomsters, has added (or at least readded) bits. He brought back the fisherman suplex and the top rope leg drop to the back of the head from his Prototype days, brought in the STFU as a new finisher, combined his spinout powerbomb and the five-knuckle shuffle in ways he didn't previously and generally set up some new variations.

 

Compare that to Triple H who has basically been using the knee facebuster, spinebuster, high knee and Pedigree since the days he was coming out to Beethoven's Ninth.

[Self]

I'd be a bit hesitant about saying Punk "creates" new moves. One of the defining characteristics of his WWE run has been how much he's... I guess the polite term would be "borrowed" from others, both with his moveset and some of his punchlines.

 

Excluding the obvious tribute with his elbow drop, the GTS is exactly the same as KENTA's (down to the same name), the Anaconda Vice is basically Hiroyoshi Tenzan's Anaconda Cross and he's been known to throw some busaiku knees in his time. He also briefly started to use Bryan Danielson's arm trap elbow strikes.

 

Absolutely 100% agree. I'm not one to glorify CM Punk (botchy and awkward as I find him) I merely pointed him out because he was one of the guys Bret Hart mentioned.

[FINisher]

I'm still so mad from Royal Rumble I've literally lost all interest in wrestling and even in writing a diary. That angers me even more. ffs.

[Blasphemywebleed]

I'm still so mad from Royal Rumble I've literally lost all interest in wrestling and even in writing a diary. That angers me even more. ffs.

 

Indeed. I wept for wrestling on Monday morning

[fullMETAL]

On the vein of balanced e-fed wrestlers, I remember how my most successful one, Axl Evermore, initially started out as a combination of Rob Van Dam and The Rock (with Nova as his picbase, which it still is) with a moveset I built entirely based on how I made him in Virtual Pro Wrestling 2 on the N64, and eventually evolved into Rob Van Dam plus Taz (SUPLEXES! SUPLEXES EVERYWHERE!) with The Rock's promo skills (seriously, I was on a roll writing promos for Evermore), and I somehow made him a successful submission-based wrestler too with a Half Crab and a Reverse Fujiwara Armbar as his finishing submissions. In fact, these days his closest comparison would be Kurt Angle in his prime, minus the Olympic Gold Medals.

He would work the arm/leg if he were going for his Submission finishers, work the back/head to build to his Impact (an F5, or a Fire Thunder Driver from almost ANY setup) and Top Rope (a Five Star Frog Splash) finishers, and he was so damn dangerous on the mic that I won a bunch of belts with him (including TWO debut-match championship wins in 2 different feds).

Now I make him first (if not first, I make him second) in every wrestling game I play, including if I made personal characters in TEW. Jack-of-all-stats he is, and he's about as close to a balanced Ace that a fed could book.

[Ghoul]

allright, i've read something interesting on another site:

 

if we go to wrestlemania, mainevent and cena wins, with whom will he feud? rock will be gone, with punk cena feuded almost a half of the last year, i dont even want to know how often he feuded with orton(if he turned) or big show, y2j will also be gone after wrestlemania so another candidate gone, ryback maybe(if he turned) or the shield? but with the title the shield wouldnt work to well and it would go the nexus route anyway. so there seems like there arnt much guys who you could feed to cena, or are there?

 

and about the 5 moves of doom from cena, i think that is more symptom of the problem of cenas super stale character, for 8 years you have cena the way he is now, 8 years the same storytelling in ring, the same moves and everything. i think most people are just bored with cena to the max. also you can have great matches, with great inring storytelling, of guys with a large moveset, it just depends on how good the people are, i thnk mike quackenbush is a good example here. i agree though, no matter the moveset its more importent that you can tell a good story in ring and that is the hardest of all skills imo.

[Comradebot]

Wait a minute, he has the BURNING F***ING HAMMER AS A BASE MOVE!!! How the hell did the e-fed let him in?

 

Hell, the match was probably entertaining.

 

BURNING HAMMER! BURNING HAMMER! BAW GAWD HE HIT THE BURNING HAMMER! Stupid Jobber covers C-Bot! Kickout just after he covered him! BAW GAWD! KICK OUT WITH AUTHORITAH!

 

I wonder, what was in the match?

 

E-Fed character I'm making right now is a spot monkey debuting rookie who would still be realistic. He's a spot monkey, but I'm restricting his moveset a bit (only move that I took out was the Final Atomic Buster, but when I get to writing his base moveset, I'll likely take away some more). And yes, I'm still working on it. Only move I'm certain of staying in would be Guile's Flash Kick.

 

 

My main e-fed character is primarily a brawler, but he only has a Hurricanrana as a signature move. It'd probably be stupid for an Andre-esque character to suddenly pop out Triple Corkscrew Moonsaults out of nowhere.

 

He (and his almost equally ridiculous tag partner) got in because they were buddies with the guy who ran it. Thankfully there was a three person panel to determine winners, so he didn't give them un-deserved wins (which most of em' would've been... I'm not exagerating when I say his RPs were basically bad Heath Ledger Joker fanfiction.)

 

The fun part was, my character at the time was my beloved Ash Darkstone, who was a walking, brooding parody of all the super-darky dark dark gritty characters. He played an over the top Goth gimmick (including arriving at a PPV match in a coffin in the back of a hearse, rising out arms crossed Dracula style, complete with fog machine), though in actuality was from upper class parentage and the son of one of the UK's legends of the 70s, Gerald "The Toff" Dunstan. His style could best be described as "European Brawler", I suppose, as he mixed super old school grappling with forearm-based brawling (having been trained since a kid by his world class dad, but rebelling against him with such "uncouth" things like punches!)... and a few more "hardcore" tendencies. So to actually face off with the type of character that had inspired my Dark Prince of Darkness, and have their silly, silly moveset lose to out European Uppercuts and leg grapevines... that was fun.

 

...

 

I need to bring Ash Darkstone back. I regularly teamed with GruntMark's character "The Spider" Ricky Stevens (the youngest brother of Jman's (in)famous "The Scorpion" Scott Stevens) as the Burning Blood Ravens of Perdition, and it was just glorious fun. Chupacabras, a guest spot on Ghost Hunters, gay dance club at Area 51 ("The Probe"), an RP I wrote in ten minutes where Ash ate at McDonald's that won RP of the week, "The Big Crawdaddy" George Stevens re-telling his tale of how he hasn't wrestled since he botched and crippled a guy...

[ScottMulhern]

I'm still so mad from Royal Rumble I've literally lost all interest in wrestling and even in writing a diary. That angers me even more. ffs.

 

Me too. Deep down I knew Cena and The Rock would win, it does make perfect sense in both storyline and a business point of view, I just wanted them to push someone else. A win for either Punk or Ziggler would have made them a huge star.

 

Indeed. I wept for wrestling on Monday morning

 

I have never said this before (unlike some) but I seriously considered giving up on WWE after Royal Rumble. It's not written for me anymore and maybe, after 25 years of watching, I've finally grown out of it.

 

I've got little interest in WM at the moment, The Rock vs John Cena didn't hook me last year (a lot to do with the booking) and even less so this year because I know who's going to win.

 

Similarly, I don't want to see HHH vs Brock Lesnar again (in fact, I'm not even sure I watched it the first time around, I've got no recollection of it whatsoever).

 

I think this years Wrestlemania exposes WWE's problems; they need to create new stars and not keep backing out at the point where they could "push them over the top". The Rock vs Cena and Brock Lesnar vs HHH (assuming of course these are the two marquee matches, although substitute HHH for Undertaker and my point still stands) are matches featuring three semi-active or retired wrestlers in three of the four spots.

 

Cena is another matter, completely stale and simply unlikeable at this point (I've seen it written elsewhere that he's actually WWE's biggest heel, a suggestion that I find extremely interesting and right on the money). I've never been a Cena fan but I've always seen his value, he's an outstanding WWE style wrestler who has been in some classic matches over the years but they keep building people up to lose to him; Dolph Ziggler, The Nexus, Kane (when he returned), The Miz, R-Truth, Rey Mysterio, Umaga, Bobby Lashley, dare I say Brock Lesnar? Nobody ever comes out of a Cena feud better off then they went in barring CM Punk and Edge.

 

I've got a horrible feeling that Cena's going to beat The Shield single-handedly at Elimination Chamber and completely derail all the good booking that has gone before (and they'll end up in some throwaway match against Santino Marella and some random tag team like the Usos at Wrestlemania) and then go on to beating The Rock at Wrestlemania setting up a third match for Wrestlemania 30.

 

In July 2011 CM Punk beat John Cena (although not clean) for the WWE Title in a hugely anticipated match that had been booked to absolute perfection. This pushed Punk to surpass Randy Orton as the second biggest name in the company and indirectly lead to him holding the WWE Title for the longest time in over 25 years. During that time he, in what the commentators would term, turned on the fans becoming the biggest heel in the company, the biggest star the company had created in years and beating all comers including an unstoppable monster face by nefarious means. Sounds like a perfect way to create a new star at the biggest show of the year to me. Instead they have him lose to an already establish star (one who has been retired for ten years after becoming a movie star) and making the title he restored the prestige to (after years of hot-potato booking) a prop for a match in which the biggest star of his generation (Cena) will win it back to bring a close to his two year long redemption storyline.

 

Imagine if Ryback won the title from Punk at Wrestlemania. What would that do for his career? Similarly, what if they'd pushed Ziggler in that direction? Imagine this; Santino Marella, after his close call at last year's Elimination Chamber and the Royal Rumble the year previous, has been built up significantly and his character tweaked enough to get the shot and win. It sounds crazy I know but Kurt Angle was goofy when he started. It's about good writing, long term thinking and character development. Instead everything feels like it's written on a month-by-month basis around Cena's character and it just seems such a waste.

 

I'll still watch Wrestlemania, because I always do, and for the most part I'll enjoy it and the irony of my complaint about watching semi-active wrestlers in the main event won't be lost on me when I'm (hopefully) enjoying CM Punk vs The Undertaker.

 

I can dream can't I?

[Teh_Showtime]

a pic to ease the recent pain of rematchmania... Bobby ROOOOOOOOOOOO and HHH. Brothers? or Father and Son?

 

http://i5.minus.com/iC5EcbIUVWK11.jpg

[djthefunkchris]

I think HHH is a little old to be Bobby's son, don't you?

[Psycho Sam]

The fun part was, my character at the time was my beloved Ash Darkstone, who was a walking, brooding parody of all the super-darky dark dark gritty characters. He played an over the top Goth gimmick (including arriving at a PPV match in a coffin in the back of a hearse, rising out arms crossed Dracula style, complete with fog machine), though in actuality was from upper class parentage and the son of one of the UK's legends of the 70s, Gerald "The Toff" Dunstan. His style could best be described as "European Brawler", I suppose, as he mixed super old school grappling with forearm-based brawling (having been trained since a kid by his world class dad, but rebelling against him with such "uncouth" things like punches!)... and a few more "hardcore" tendencies. So to actually face off with the type of character that had inspired my Dark Prince of Darkness, and have their silly, silly moveset lose to out European Uppercuts and leg grapevines... that was fun.

 

...

 

I need to bring Ash Darkstone back. I regularly teamed with GruntMark's character "The Spider" Ricky Stevens (the youngest brother of Jman's (in)famous "The Scorpion" Scott Stevens) as the Burning Blood Ravens of Perdition, and it was just glorious fun. Chupacabras, a guest spot on Ghost Hunters, gay dance club at Area 51 ("The Probe"), an RP I wrote in ten minutes where Ash ate at McDonald's that won RP of the week, "The Big Crawdaddy" George Stevens re-telling his tale of how he hasn't wrestled since he botched and crippled a guy...

 

Yeah...

 

There is High Octane Wrestling, where me and Jman are right now. We're doing a tournament right now, but this place is a great e-fed.

 

Love to see you and Grunt RP in here.

 

 

And yeah, HHH's too old to be Roode's son. Maybe it's the other way around?

[Blackman]

Watched the Rumble again this year and it was kind of entertaining. Good segments and a nice main event. Hard not to enjoy. Guess my interest in Mania has been pickled.

[consortium11]

On the e-fed side of things, back in the days when I took part in them my favourite character I played with was "Matty Midget" who, as the name implied, was a midget. A punk, anarchist midget who acted like he was the meanest, toughest, nastiest brawler around but a midget all the same.

 

Originally his finisher was a 630 senton (I went with the logic that considering his size it would be pretty easy to do) but as time went by and he kept facing opponents who would have Psycho Drivers and Ganso Bombs as their standard moves I made his moveset a little more... shall we say conservative. A main finisher of a drop kick to the knee and a back up submission finisher of a headlock.

 

You want your character to be the most badass of the badass with a finisher from the world of fantasy?

 

Fine

 

But your guy is still going to be kicked in the knee and then tap out to a headlock

 

------------------

 

With regards to the Rumble itself I enjoyed the show and the Rumble match itself but it all left me a bit... I guess the term would be deflated.

 

Take the Rock/Punk match for example. It was pretty clear who was going to win (especially considering Cena had just won the Rumble) but beyond that the match was just a bit... well flat.

 

This was the end of Punk's title reign, a title reign that is the longest for decades. Despite the fact that his "best in the world" character had been eroded over the previous months by only getting cheap wins it still should have been epic. And it wasn't.

 

That's not to focus in on the People's Elbow finish as some others have done (although logic wise it's always been slightly odd that a spine-buster/elbow combination gets a pin when say another move and a top rope elbow doesn't)... The Rock's put down virtually everyone he's faced with it at one time or another and it's one of the most over moves out there... but on the whole finish. It was a match begging for false finishes and near falls, for Rock to kick out of the GTS and for Punk to kick out of the Rock Bottom (especially with the way the Rock had hyped the promos up previously). It was a match begging for a Pepsi Plunge tease and for a frantic dash in the last four or five minutes. It never quite got there.

 

The closest example I can think of is a match between the Rock and Kurt Angle for the belt when Austin had won the Rumble. We all sort of knew it would be Rock/Austin at Wrestlemania and all Kurt was there for was to put on an exciting match... but even then in the finish it took two Rock Bottoms to put Kurt away, not a spinebuster and an elbow without a huge dash before hand.

 

It was just... a bit flat.

 

The same can be said of the Rumble itself. It had individually good moments (I actually enjoyed Santino going wild) and was well put together (I didn't particularly like Kofi's chair spot but the way it was used to set the scene for the Team Hell No fallout worked perfectly) but I just never felt that it really had... well, "that."

 

One of the best things about the Rumble is the way it can allow individual workers to shine and get noticed. This Rumble didn't have that. Yes Ziggler lasted a long time... but simply lasting a long time doesn't really mean much now and he spent most of that time clutching the ropes or nearly being eliminated. Yes, Bo Dallas eliminated Barrett... but then there's not a huge amount beyond that (and is that really on the level of say Maven eliminating the Undertaker). Where was say Punk hitting the GTS on HHH? Or Punk preaching in the ring as each new person came out? Or anything to really show that a superstar has arrived. Have Ziggler eliminate Orton, have Miz (even if I hate his face turn) throw out someone important (although I note that there weren't really many top level heels in the Rumble) or, and I was virtually waiting for this, have Cesaro eliminate someone by doing the flapjack uppercut by the ropes and send them over. Just... well, something to really stand out. Because in truth, not much did.

[Comradebot]

a pic to ease the recent pain of rematchmania... Bobby ROOOOOOOOOOOO and HHH. Brothers? or Father and Son?

 

http://i5.minus.com/iC5EcbIUVWK11.jpg

 

The difference is, HHH has proven he is capable of being entertaining.

 

Roode is like, a step above Randy Orton in my books in terms of entertainment.

[milamber]

It's based on recognition and used to cue the crowd in that the babyface is coming back yeah we all know this

 

The difference is some wrestlers mix tons of different moves in with their sequence sometimes and some people's entire offense and psychology revolves around those moves.

 

and about the 5 moves of doom from cena, i think that is more symptom of the problem of cenas super stale character, for 8 years you have cena the way he is now, 8 years the same storytelling in ring, the same moves and everything. i think most people are just bored with cena to the max. also you can have great matches, with great inring storytelling, of guys with a large moveset, it just depends on how good the people are, i thnk mike quackenbush is a good example here. i agree though, no matter the moveset its more importent that you can tell a good story in ring and that is the hardest of all skills imo.

 

I agree with these points. However, Cena makes his moves look way too easy (unless he's lifting up Show or Henry) and only make his cheesy gimmick look worse in the ring. The shoulder tackles look weak. 5 Knuckle Shuffle is cheesy (just like the People's elbow). The AA looks like it requires no effort on Cena's part. The STF is effective if the other guy doesn't tap out after 2 seconds (it doesn't look half as dangerous as an armbar or LeBell lock). And we all know the exact sequence he uses. Unless the other guy counters or there's inteference you don't have to watch the end of a Cena match to know what happens.

 

Talented guys like Bryan can hit their 5 moves in a way that make them look good, say their catchphrases, tell a story, and throw in the occasional cool move. Watch Alberto Del Rio against Ziggler on this week's Smackdown. Count how many new moves he's started using since turning face (moonsault, german suplex, superplex, variations of the enziguri). Now compare how long Del Rio has been in WWE compared to Cena.

[bigtplaystew]

I honestly think the only "problem" with Cena is simply that his current bag of tricks is a little stale. He might attain better levels of popularity with the hardcores and even maybe get more mainstream heat if he changed up the way he does things a little bit.

 

I just hate the way we all sit around and act like "Here's the problem with Cena..." He's number 1, dude. He's the most recognizable (and marketable) full time wrestler in the world.

[Bull]

My one and only problem with John Cena is the fact that the only thing about his character that has evolved in the past 7 or so years is his wardrobe.

[milamber]

SD Highlights:

 

ADR ambushing Show with a metal pipe. Luchadors beating Hell No. Sandow/Rhodes bromance. Barrett bullhammering the ring post. Shield beating down Sheamus. Ziggler v ADR was a great match.

 

SD Lowlights:

 

Rhodes Scolars dissolved. Swagger looked decent in the ring but his mic work sucks and his gimmick is still stale.

[GhostDogg]

My Predictions

 

Now I saw the RR over here in Korea (which sucks, because it comes on TWO DAYS AFTER everyone else watches it..but hey. 55 days!! Sorry for getting off topic)

 

I was talking to my friend LoDrew and I was thinking what the E would do...for this..

 

Rock beats Punk in a controversial fashion (which did happen) and Cena wins the Rumble, (which also happend). Now at the Elimination Chamber, it will be a rematch for the WWE Title in which it will probably be a No Contest, either to interference with the Shield or the returning Lesnar (which Lesnar will probably fued with Ryback).

 

So with Punk not winning the Title, but not losing the match either, he get to fight Rock, along with Cena to have a 3 way dance. In which, of course, SUPER CENA WINS...now here is where the interesting part comes in ...

 

Right before the MITB contract expires, Ziggler cashes in on Cena to become the new WWE champion and the ONLY Superstar to cash in the MITB at WM and win it.

 

So where this goes, Ziggler can boast that Cena had beaten him the past couple of months, the Showoff won where it MATTERED at WM for the WWE Title. And Ziggler can have both Punk and Cena after him. So this can accomplish a few things.

 

1. Ziggler can FINALLY win the big one.

2. Cena wont be champ. Because God knows hes had it ENOUGH already.

3. Punk can still hang on to the Best in the World Persona, and go after the title that never "Really" lost.

4. Rock can drop the belt and start making movies. (aka Fast 6 and GI Joe 2)

 

 

 

I could be wrong.....BUT I DOUBT IT.

 

GHOST

[Nathers7]

Ziggler can only cash in on the World Heavyweight Title, Cena cashed in the WWE title briefcase on Raw 1000.

[GhostDogg]

Then a couple of questions.

 

#1: Why did Cena try and go after the case?

 

and #2. I thought they said there was no such things as Brands anymore..

 

But I wouldnt be surprised if they had a loophole "going around" that rule. Because if you noticed all this year, Ziggler has been willing to cash it against both the WWE and World Champion without prejudice. (although I might be wrong)

[Tha Black Phenom]

1. You could justify that several ways, from there being more of an emphasis on Cena not wanting Ziggler to be MITB, to Cena wanting another shot with the briefcase being considered the only man to not have been successful with a cash-in.

 

2. There are no such things(virtually). But I think the WWE championship and World championship are still separated to a degree, not bound by brand but merely convenient traditional measures.

 

Pretty sure Ziggler's mostly eyed the World title, if he's ever eyed the WWE title than maybe it was winged in purely for storyline purposes(vs. Cena).

 

As it is, I have zero interest in witnessing Cena vs. Rock again. But I may be invested into this WM if something else catches my eye, as in an interesting match-up.

[TakerNGN74]

Right before the MITB contract expires, Ziggler cashes in on Cena to become the new WWE champion and the ONLY Superstar to cash in the MITB at WM and win it.

 

The MITB contract doesn't expire at Wrestlemania it would expire at Money In The Bank 2013 which is around the year mark from where the last Money In The Bank Pay Per View took place and also where Ziggler won it last year.

[ThriceP86]

Ziggler's contract is for the World Title. He can't cash in on the WWE champion.

 

By the way, I don't like that Ziggler and AJ were not on TV last night. Unless there was a legitimate reason for it like AJ not being able to be there. If not, they should've at least had a segment on RAW. I know Ziggler was in the dark match so what the hell?!

[Lo-Drew]

Then a couple of questions.

 

#1: Why did Cena try and go after the case?

 

and #2. I thought they said there was no such things as Brands anymore..

 

But I wouldnt be surprised if they had a loophole "going around" that rule. Because if you noticed all this year, Ziggler has been willing to cash it against both the WWE and World Champion without prejudice. (although I might be wrong)

 

Eh I keep telling you dude, Ziggler has the WORLD Title briefcase. Yeah they're no longer brands, but there are still two World title floating around and considering Cena won the WWE Title briefcase, having Ziggler cash it in on the WWE Champion would be non-linear and WWE has enough of non linear things going on such as no more brand split but still have two World titles around.

 

And he's only been trying to cash it in on Sheamus and Big Show(when they were World Heavyweight Champion).