The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[lazorbeak]

I will never admit I'm wrong about Cena, because I'm not wrong about Cena. Bottomline.

 

The problem isn't that he's bad, but the fact he's simply not good enough. In fact, I don't find him carryable at all. His matches usually range from typically boring to typically bad. Other than his looks, there's nothing that's good about him. Charisma? Please, there's people with better charisma than he has. Mic Skills? Same thing. Wrestling? I don't even need to discuss that. Athleticism? Come on.

 

He's not bad, but he's not good either. He's just average. He deserves to be in the midcard/lower midcard at best. He nowhere deserves the defenses he has.

 

If you like him, fine, but don't try to say he's good, because he isn't. Name one Cena match being good where you can attribute it to Cena, and not because of the match gimmick, or the other wrestler. I can't.

 

In fact, the HBK Vs. Cena match sucked. And don't even mention the RAW match to me, because it was pretty much a "make-up" for the match before. If Cena could do half of what he did in that RAW match against HBK on every other PPV, then I wouldn't be complaining, would I?

 

So, uh, how many post-2006 Cena matches have you actually watched? And seriously, deserves to be in the midcard/lower midcard? I take it you have selective memory of how ridiculously over he got on Smackdown during his run as a white rapper? He was getting bigger babyface reactions than Chris Benoit on Smackdown before Benoit won the Rumble (and left the show). And it's not as it if was just a matter of "well they booked him to steamroll everyone," because he worked his way up the card and had solid feuds with guys like Eddie Guerrero, Undertaker, and other veteran talent to help get him established: it certainly wasn't the Brock Lesnar push where he beat both Hardy Boyz, RVD, Hogan, and the Rock in a 4 month period.

 

Not to mention he's been a solid and reliable draw, helping WWE to pick up their buyrates after some pretty stiff drops- even if he did suck in the ring (and he doesn't), he would be a top guy for that reason alone.

 

But really is it still en vogue to hate on Cena? What is this, 2005? How about some new material. In fact, I'm going to beat all the smarks to the punch this time. Kofi Kingston is completely terrible! He's got what, 4 moves, and 3 of them are kicks? Get outta heah!

[Tha Black Phenom]

In my opinion, Cena/HBK had the better match at Mania 23, but that's just me.

 

As for Cena, the only thing I dislike about him now is his character. This generic babyface who is at the forefront no less, of WWE's flagship show... I don't like it. I can do with it. But I'll always wish for a change or so. The obvious reason me and many others don't like it is because we grew up with more than that. Those kids are stuck with him though, so not much damage there. I get the every-kid's-hero stigma here, but would it hurt that much to give him a little.. something? I mean, just last month. Cena had a promo with DX backstage, hyping up their triple threat. Cena made a comment about them beating each other all the time and the Bella Twins were shown in disgust.. his reaction was funny. Why can't there be more simple things like that, just here and there to highlight his funny persona? Because they're definitely trying to pass off John Cena as a funny guy. There's just no... substance, he's just seen as a walking billboard and occasionally, SuperCena who hypes his own matches more than commentators.

 

Before anyone follows, yes I am obviously berating the creative team for this, and not Cena himself. (somehow, someone always needs to follow up with stating that) Cena himself, I don't... well... I still don't like him, but I don't hate him either.

[PeterHilton]

I will never admit I'm wrong about Cena, because I'm not wrong about Cena. Bottomline.

 

 

HAHAHAHA....WTF?

 

Listen, I think maybe you should try and wrap your head around something: wrestling is not a sport. It's a work. It's fake.

 

The ONLY thing that REALLY matters in pro wrestling is a worker's ability to get the audience to pay to watch them.

 

That's it.

 

Whether it's by OMG roxorz!!! work rate or through the use of promos, or their look or their ability to play the babyface in peril or whatever. Whether it's getting people to pay to root them on or to watch them lose. It's wrestling; if you put asses in the seats, you are - by the only definition that matters in rasslin - a good worker.

 

Your opinion on Cena, no matter how definitive you are, is still completely subjective. But the fact that Cena is the biggest draw in American pro wrestling since the Attitude Era..that's a truth.

 

People are willing to pay to see him perform. A lot. For a sustained period of time. By the time he's finished he'll be looked at as one of the top 5 most successful WWE wrestlers ever.

 

I know he's not a superior ring technician. And his character to me personally is dull as hell. But he's the biggest draw in the E which means he most definitely should be at the top of the card.

 

To suggest anything else is just the delusional ramblings of internet wrestling snobs.

[alden]

In modern wrestling.......as far as the wwe goes......."wrestling talent" is low on the list of things to look for and i think it should be. Lets be honest......name a top draw in the last twenty years who had alot of wrestling talent........I can name maybe 10 MAYBE.......

 

Rock....as a wrestler he was not that good

austin.........nope

hogan........the five moves of death

triple h.........see hogan

hall..............next

nash.........when he wanted to be *sober* he was ok......but never a huge draw

 

I think i made my point.........For every angle or guerrero.......there is five austins and rocks......people don't pay to see people wrestle in the wwe any more. If so lance storm.........william regal......and guys like him would be top draws.

[masterded]

In modern wrestling.......as far as the wwe goes......."wrestling talent" is low on the list of things to look for and i think it should be. Lets be honest......name a top draw in the last twenty years who had alot of wrestling talent........I can name maybe 10 MAYBE.......

 

Rock....as a wrestler he was not that good

austin.........nope

hogan........the five moves of death

triple h.........see hogan

hall..............next

nash.........when he wanted to be *sober* he was ok......but never a huge draw

 

I think i made my point.........For every angle or guerrero.......there is five austins and rocks......people don't pay to see people wrestle in the wwe any more. If so lance storm.........william regal......and guys like him would be top draws.

 

First I think you switched Hall and Nash. Second you don't think Austin was talented? Sure after Owen messed him up and as his knees got worst he wasn't as good as he once was, but he was a great wrestler talent wise.

[BoomKing]

Ok, so the rock would be the first to admit he was never the best 'wrestler,' but he had ring presence coming out of his ass! (in my opinion.)

 

Before all his neck troubles, and in a few brief outings afterwards, Austin was a really great wrestler, and more than hung with Bret Hart.

 

Hogan...see Rock

 

Triple H had a really good run of awesome matches so he had the talent but rarely shows it unless he has the right opponent

 

Again, Scott Hall was at one time or another a huge prospect, but for whatever 'personal demons' he had, never fulfilled it.

 

Nash...well Nash is Nash, I'll give you that one.

 

On top of that I'll add CM Punk, Brock Lesnar, (who was beginning to show signs of awesomeness,) Kurt Angle, Christian Cage, AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho....all wrestlers who I would consider as talented who have recieved major pushes. Regal was pushed huuuuuge...until he got caught by wellness.

[alden]

lol i just relized what i did switch hall and nash my bad .........austin when he was a good wrestler was never a draw.....he did not start making big money till the time after the neck injury..........He was a brawler and i guess that might be one reason why i looked at him as less talented. I always though anyone could be a "brawler"

[BoomKing]

yeah...I can kind of see where your coming from with Austin, however, I think that he would have been as popular with or without the necessary changes in his wrestling. I guess we will never know for sure though.

[masterded]

lol i just relized what i did switch hall and nash my bad .........austin when he was a good wrestler was never a draw.....he did not start making big money till the time after the neck injury..........He was a brawler and i guess that might be one reason why i looked at him as less talented. I always though anyone could be a "brawler"

 

I think that is why we would have very different opinions on someone like Austin after he got hurt. I find brawling to be very under rated especially the ones who do it with out hurting their opponent, which is why I don’t like a lot of people who work stiff (I mean anyone can make a hit look like it hurts when they actually punch you).

[d_w_w]

I will never admit I'm wrong about Cena, because I'm not wrong about Cena. Bottomline.

 

 

Read: You aren't worth talking to when it comes to Cena.

 

Good to know, I guess.

[alden]

Ok, so the rock would be the first to admit he was never the best 'wrestler,' but he had ring presence coming out of his ass! (in my opinion.)

 

Before all his neck troubles, and in a few brief outings afterwards, Austin was a really great wrestler, and more than hung with Bret Hart.

 

Hogan...see Rock

 

Triple H had a really good run of awesome matches so he had the talent but rarely shows it unless he has the right opponent

 

Again, Scott Hall was at one time or another a huge prospect, but for whatever 'personal demons' he had, never fulfilled it.

 

Nash...well Nash is Nash, I'll give you that one.

 

On top of that I'll add CM Punk, Brock Lesnar, (who was beginning to show signs of awesomeness,) Kurt Angle, Christian Cage, AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho....all wrestlers who I would consider as talented who have recieved major pushes. Regal was pushed huuuuuge...until he got caught by wellness.

 

I think there is a diffrence between a push.....and a draw....styles could not draw any real money to be honest, same with joe christian and benoit. Jericho....well he draws and is uber talented so i think he might be one of the exceptions......but even he has towned down him in ring talent as of late. I think lesner could have been huge....like hogan and rock huge......he was young....had a great look and with heyman was getting a ton of screen time.

[ampulator]

So, uh, how many post-2006 Cena matches have you actually watched? And seriously, deserves to be in the midcard/lower midcard? I take it you have selective memory of how ridiculously over he got on Smackdown during his run as a white rapper? He was getting bigger babyface reactions than Chris Benoit on Smackdown before Benoit won the Rumble (and left the show). And it's not as it if was just a matter of "well they booked him to steamroll everyone," because he worked his way up the card and had solid feuds with guys like Eddie Guerrero, Undertaker, and other veteran talent to help get him established: it certainly wasn't the Brock Lesnar push where he beat both Hardy Boyz, RVD, Hogan, and the Rock in a 4 month period.

 

Not to mention he's been a solid and reliable draw, helping WWE to pick up their buyrates after some pretty stiff drops- even if he did suck in the ring (and he doesn't), he would be a top guy for that reason alone.

 

But really is it still en vogue to hate on Cena? What is this, 2005? How about some new material. In fact, I'm going to beat all the smarks to the punch this time. Kofi Kingston is completely terrible! He's got what, 4 moves, and 3 of them are kicks? Get outta heah!

I actually like Kofi Kingston. I don't have an issue with at all. Sheamus, on the other hand... ugh...

 

And yes, I was paying attention when he was the "white rapper". I still didn't like him back then, even when he was more edgy.

 

I also thought his fueds with Eddie Guerrero and Undertaker were fine, but the matches certainly were not up to par.

 

You say I care if it's "stylish" to hate on Cena. I'm doing this because it's stylish. I'm doing this I genuinely believe Cena doesn't deserve to be in the main event, and that he has... HAD.... been shoved up through and down onto me. And the reason why there seems to be less hate in certain cities, is not because Cena them over, it's because they stopped attending the events. If you go to a bigger event, like Wrestlemania, those boos are still very much there.

 

And anyone who says "X cannot draw" is ignorant. Anyone can be made to draw, if the WWE's market machine is proof enough. I'm not denying Cena draws. He does. I'm just saying he's boring. The fans he draws aren't exactly long-time fans, and most of them would fade away when they are old to realize what they are seeing isn't actually that good.

[thatoneguy]

Anyone can be made to draw, if the WWE's market machine is proof enough.

 

Proof that you're wrong: The Ultimate Warrior.

[SaySo]

And anyone who says "X cannot draw" is ignorant. Anyone can be made to draw, if the WWE's market machine is proof enough. I'm not denying Cena draws. He does. I'm just saying he's boring. The fans he draws aren't exactly long-time fans, and most of them would fade away when they are old to realize what they are seeing isn't actually that good.

 

Anyone can be made to draw? So you telling me that Jamie Noble was pushed the way they pushed Cena (03-05), he'll draw fans? How the hell did Cena draw if he isn't actually good? I'm totally confused.

 

Guess what i find online about the WWE.

 

**** comScore Media Metrix April 2009 – June 2009 United States

 

Demographics

 

* 61% are male

* 15% are ages 12-17

* 67% are ages 18-49

* 41% are males 18-34

* 33% are non-white

* 29% have a HHI of 75K or higher

* 15% have a HHI of 100K or higher

 

Why aren't any wrestling promotions taking advantage of the fans leaving the WWE.

[PeterHilton]

And anyone who says "X cannot draw" is ignorant. Anyone can be made to draw, if the WWE's market machine is proof enough. I'm not denying Cena draws. He does. I'm just saying he's boring. The fans he draws aren't exactly long-time fans, and most of them would fade away when they are old to realize what they are seeing isn't actually that good.

 

You really don't know what you're talking about.

 

You have an OPINION. I think you should maybe consider that the majority of people who are out there watching wrestling just don't share your OPINION.

 

The WWE as a business has proven that they want to market their product to the widest audience possible.They don't really care one way or the other about the internet wrestling geek, because those "fans" will watch anyway, even if it's just to boo the hell out of someone like Cena.

 

It's sort of like arguing about music: pop music gets hammered by critics and destroyed by music snobs, but it makes millions of dollars.

 

And in the end, isn't that KIND OF THE POINT.

[ECW 2.0]

Sheamus is the new champ? This marks the start of the end for WWE

[lazorbeak]

I actually like Kofi Kingston. I don't have an issue with at all. Sheamus, on the other hand... ugh...

 

Please ignore any whooshing sound you may hear passing overhead.

 

 

 

You say I care if it's "stylish" to hate on Cena.

 

No I didn't. I just pointed out that you're making a tired and horribly dated argument.

 

And anyone who says "X cannot draw" is ignorant. Anyone can be made to draw, if the WWE's market machine is proof enough. I'm not denying Cena draws. He does. I'm just saying he's boring. The fans he draws aren't exactly long-time fans, and most of them would fade away when they are old to realize what they are seeing isn't actually that good.

 

Tell that to Chris Benoit, Rey Mysterio, and all the other one time champions who were such disasterously poor draws that they never got near a world title again. If you think "anyone" can be a draw, you're the one that's ignorant of what being a "draw" actually means. Hint: it doesn't mean that you're pushed into the main event.

[supershot]

Anyone shocked that Sheamus just defeated Cena?

[ECW 2.0]

No, but this is the start of the end for WWE Sheamus is a peice of talentless crap!!

[Guest Bolton]

Sheamus wins the WWE title, good to see an Irishman with the gold.

[PeterHilton]

Sheamus is the new champ? This marks the start of the end for WWE

 

 

Take it easy, Champ. Why don't you stop talking for a while?

[sabataged]

 

Take it easy, Champ. Why don't you stop talking for a while?

 

Cena will either get it back tonight or tomorrow...whenever his rematch is

[ECW 2.0]

I guess WWE fans r too...well i want use the words im thinking of you all think any thing vince does is great when the fact is he has nothing but sh*t with WWE right now

[Franchise22]

for the first time in some time i was shocked by the wwe. i thought this reaked of a walkover to hold us to a major defense at rumble and beyond. Even if he loses it back on raw 2morrow (like kane did with austin), it still holds an OMG feel IMO.

[lazorbeak]

I predict JBL 2.0, only Irish. 10 month reign, here we come! Seriously it's a really good "shock" move by the WWE. I'm definitely going to watch Raw for the first time since MSG.