The Roman Reigns Effect

[mharmon99]

Dolph is definitely as bad as Roman in terms of mic skills. He's a great jobber, but he is cringeworthy when he becomes part of a storyline. He only gets pops because he was good a couple of years ago. Plus his Twitter game is weak af, he's trying too hard to be Kevin Owens online

 

Are you seriously attacking Dolph right now? I'm not saying he isn't a jobber, but his twitter game isn't weak. LMBO it's funny, that's the only thing I disagree with you on. He's still good, he's just stale and we just don't care anymore because it's clear that he'll never be more than a mid card jobber. Love the guy, but it's true.

[Teh_Showtime]

If you want to argue the merits of Reigns as a draw I will just leave this here

 

http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/wwe2015attend.png

http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/wwemains3.png

 

When you account for opponent and notice the likes of Rusev and Kevin Owens were often paired against Cena, and that Sheamus was paired with Reigns (holiday season tours often draw the best of the year) it's inarguable that Roman was at worst the #3 draw in 2015 behind Cena and Rollins (who was essentially champion all year)

[SirMichaelJordan]

It's really a tough question, I be been trying to figure out how (if) you can replicate Roman's past two years in TEW. He's not especially untalented, and it's hard to say he's "unpopular", but he is pushed too high on the card. My best bet would be that he had a poor gimmick, or potentially he had gimmick changes too frequently (tater tots, silent badass, etc)... Maybe his Face Performance rating is really low, and that's why the crowds aren't buying him.

 

I've also been pondering the likes of Sandow, who got incredibly over despite being punished with bad gimmicks and losing streaks. And Zack Ryder, who got over while not even being on the shows. There's no real way for TEW to emulate this situations, is there?

 

It's really easy once you stop basing everything on the vocal bunch's reaction.

 

Are you seriously suggesting Sandow & Ryder are push lower than they should ang Reigns is pushed higher than he should be.

 

I like to see how it goes with you placing Dolph as your figure head. IRL if course.

 

Cena gets the same reaction, does the same applies to him? The consensus on Reigns is that people want him heel. Hence bad gimmick and not really good at being a babyface.

[Genadi]

How on earth can you lean on that logic?

 

WM32 broke an attendance record because it was held in a huge arena. WMXX had an attendance of a mere 18,000 - does that mean Shawn Michaels, Triple H and Chris Benoit in 2004 were only a fifth the draw that Roman Reigns is?

 

WM32 was mostly sold out before any matches were even announced. Reigns isn't a draw, Wrestlemania is. Ambrose vs Triple H would have had the same attendance. AJ Styles vs Brock Lesnar would have had the same attendance.

 

Reigns didn't draw a record crowd, he performed in front of a record crowd... Whom WWE wanted to cheer him, but instead met him with thunderous boos to the point where they cut the audio and blasted a million pyros to cover it up, while the announcers claimed the crowd was going nuts for him.

 

This a discussion in regards to how it works in TEW. Hence it being posted in the TEW general discussion section not the dog pound. Your argument has nothing to do with what I was saying.

 

Reigns in TEW right now would have to have high popularity if replicating reality is intended.

[combolock]

Look at Eric Eisen of the Cornellverse. Really high popularity for a guy nobody likes. Or that is the impression I get from the bio. Although, Eric has better mic skills than Roman, obviously.

[SirMichaelJordan]

I'll say Reigns doesn't have the pyshcology to carry the mainevent in TEW. That would be the only thing that suggest he is being push higher than he should be.

 

Thats not to say his pyshology is piss poor terrible, just isn't high enough. You can't ME him with the likes of Batista.

[Self]

Dolph Ziggler is way worse than his push has ever been. One of the worst pro wrestlers I have ever seen in my entire history of watching wrestling.

 

Despite using him as an example, I don't particularly rate him either. Waaaaaaay too fast. Wouldn't call him the worst though. I've seen some terrible, terrible wrestling on the indies.

[mharmon99]

I'll say Reigns doesn't have the pyshcology to carry the mainevent in TEW. That would be the only thing that suggest he is being push higher than he should be.

 

Thats not to say his pyshology is piss poor terrible, just isn't high enough. You can't ME him with the likes of Batista.

 

Yes, it's like taking someone with low Fog of War points and making them your champion in a global company. Someone who still needs to be carried. I don't understand why they are rushing his push. They want someone to carry the company, but Stone Cold Steve Austin did not become the face of the company until settling into his Stone Cold gimmick. Hulk Hogan did not become the face of WWF until they saw that he was a legitimate name for the face of your company.

 

Things changed with John Cena, which is why he kept getting mixed reaction and now with Roman. The Fog of War in TEW adds to the realism in that you don't know how truly talented someone is until they've proved themselves. For example, although it's relatively known that KC Glenn is a phenomenal talent, you don't know the extent of his ability unless you check the editor. Otherwise, he will show as being on the same level as many other workers. That's why you have to get him to work more matches and allow him to develop into a better star. You don't say that he's a good choice for the face of your global company and push him to the helm of your company after 3 years of being on your roster. You let him develop a character that fits him, where he can be natural.

 

This is entertainment, but nobody wants to go to see a movie and be reminded that it's all just a story. That is what Roman does, he's unnatural, so it reminds us that it's fake. There is no real passion behind his promo, he's not a John Cena, a The Rock, or a Hogan. Even Cena had better Mic skills his first night on the main roster than Roman has in 3 years of being on the main roster.

 

However, it's not his fault. WWE forced him to be the third man in the Shield instead of letting him develop properly like it's doing with every independent scene worker they sign, guys and girls who have already developed their character, who have been cutting promos for much much longer than Reigns.

 

Baron Corbin has proven to be better on the Mic than Reigns. I remember last year when he debut, how awkward he, but he's more comfortable and knows his gimmick. I'd rather Corbin be the hand pick face than Reigns. Nothing against him, but Corbin has proven himself to be able to have great single feuds and talk on the Mic without hesitation or making a bunch of mistakes. His Character is defined and he knows his Character well. Reigns was the Enforcer of the Shield, now he's Roman Reigns. No gimmick at all. His desire to be champion is supposed to be for his family, but that was mentioned once in a promo around last September and never brought up again. So he's not the family man, he's just the chosen one. If you check TEW, the Chosen One gimmick is played by heels, just like Drew McIntyre. However, we have a babyface forcefully playing a heel role, against the very same people who picked him to play that role. Of course, there's characters, but since Reigns doesn't have one, we're left with the real truth of him being the chosen one.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Yes, it's like taking someone with low Fog of War points and making them your champion in a global company. Someone who still needs to be carried. I don't understand why they are rushing his push. They want someone to carry the company, but Stone Cold Steve Austin did not become the face of the company until settling into his Stone Cold gimmick. Hulk Hogan did not become the face of WWF until they saw that he was a legitimate name for the face of your company.

 

Things changed with John Cena, which is why he kept getting mixed reaction and now with Roman. The Fog of War in TEW adds to the realism in that you don't know how truly talented someone is until they've proved themselves. For example, although it's relatively known that KC Glenn is a phenomenal talent, you don't know the extent of his ability unless you check the editor. Otherwise, he will show as being on the same level as many other workers. That's why you have to get him to work more matches and allow him to develop into a better star. You don't say that he's a good choice for the face of your global company and push him to the helm of your company after 3 years of being on your roster. You let him develop a character that fits him, where he can be natural.

 

This is entertainment, but nobody wants to go to see a movie and be reminded that it's all just a story. That is what Roman does, he's unnatural, so it reminds us that it's fake. There is no real passion behind his promo, he's not a John Cena, a The Rock, or a Hogan. Even Cena had better Mic skills his first night on the main roster than Roman has in 3 years of being on the main roster.

 

However, it's not his fault. WWE forced him to be the third man in the Shield instead of letting him develop properly like it's doing with every independent scene worker they sign, guys and girls who have already developed their character, who have been cutting promos for much much longer than Reigns.

 

Baron Corbin has proven to be better on the Mic than Reigns. I remember last year when he debut, how awkward he, but he's more comfortable and knows his gimmick. I'd rather Corbin be the hand pick face than Reigns. Nothing against him, but Corbin has proven himself to be able to have great single feuds and talk on the Mic without hesitation or making a bunch of mistakes. His Character is defined and he knows his Character well. Reigns was the Enforcer of the Shield, now he's Roman Reigns. No gimmick at all. His desire to be champion is supposed to be for his family, but that was mentioned once in a promo around last September and never brought up again. So he's not the family man, he's just the chosen one. If you check TEW, the Chosen One gimmick is played by heels, just like Drew McIntyre. However, we have a babyface forcefully playing a heel role, against the very same people who picked him to play that role. Of course, there's characters, but since Reigns doesn't have one, we're left with the real truth of him being the chosen one.

 

 

Well you do it to build new stars. Like it or not he gets the most heat in the company. It may not be the reaction they want but its still a reaction. getting pushed to the moon right away didn't hurt Batista or Brock and neither of them was great on the mic. (Brock had a run without Heyman)

 

Also Reigns have been with the company for awhile now if you include his FCW days so I doubt FOW have anything to do with it.

 

Speaking of needing to be carried, that didn't hurt HHH.

[AfRoMaN36]

I'm really sorry to continue to the trend of taking this forum off topic, but...

 

 

Well you do it to build new stars. Like it or not he gets the most heat in the company. It may not be the reaction they want but its still a reaction. getting pushed to the moon right away didn't hurt Batista or Brock and neither of them was great on the mic. (Brock had a run without Heyman)

 

Also Reigns have been with the company for awhile now if you include his FCW days so I doubt FOW have anything to do with it.

 

Speaking of needing to be carried, that didn't hurt HHH.

 

 

Batista was a church deacon his first night in the company. It wasn't until a few years in, becoming Triple H's muscle that he naturally got over and the company capitalized.

 

Brock was overpushed from the get-go, but he had Paul Heyman. Paul Heyman can turn anything into gold. If Brock was relied on to cut promos and say "suffering sucotash" he would most likely bomb too.

 

Triple H needing to be carried is laughable. He is still the top heel in this company after 15 years.

 

John Cena got mixed reactions because he was booked as Hulk Hogan 2.0 in a world where the people don't want to see Hulk Hogan anymore. They were sick of it in the early nineties, much less in 2005, even less so now. If you noticed, even before he got hurt, Cena was starting to get better crowd reactions. This is because he was no longer the forced fed focal point of every show. And the logic that just the fact that he actually gets a reaction justifies his push is so frustrating to hear. It's like if I were to watch a TV show, where there is a character that is meant to be liked, but there is a visceral viewer reaction to the contrary. And the show just keeps using him exactly the same way because "well at least they're reacting to him." No, that person would either be written off or have his character changed. It is no different with wrestling.

 

Blaming the fans for voicing their opinions of a product they like is the absolute worst logic I've ever seen and I see it all the time with wrestling fans. The company's sole purpose is to entertain those very people who are saying they are not entertained and yet the company continues to assume they know better.

[niall2015]

One thing I just thought of which really holds Roman back, is the commentary. My God there is nothing more annoying than Michael Cole, JBL and Byron Saxton forcing buzzwords down your throat. This isn't just a Roman problem, Cole has ruined "Suplex City", Cole has somehow made Ambrose annoying by repeatedly shouting out "Ambrose Asylum!" whenever Ambrose starts build momentum, and how could we forget "USO CRAZY!", a phrase which is legitimately the only reason I despise the Usos.

 

There's nothing more annoying than listening to Cole shill terrible nicknames for Roman, in the last 2 months I've heard

- The big dog

- The lone wolf (Baron Corbin's gimmick infringement)

- The ruler of the Roman Empire

- The enforcer of the Shield

- Then Triple H calling him "The Samoan Badass"

- I'm pretty sure his new nickname is "THE Guy" because he used it on Raw, and called himself THE Guy like 4 times on Smackdown

 

WWE nicknames can be very cringeworthy, and these all just sound so corporate. Commentary as a whole is a problem for the entire product, but they sound so forced when they want to push somebody. That "These fans cheer people they normally boo, and boo people they normally cheer" line from JBL last week, was one of the most pathetic attempts at damage control I've ever heard. Plus hearing them just ignore the booing, these things do the exact opposite of what they want and just draw attention to the fact that Roman is getting booed, and it makes it worse because they are passing legitimate complaints from their consumers off as "THEY'RE JUST HAVING FUN MAGGLE!". Anybody else remember the commentary during the "Summer of Punk"? My God it was insulting, listening to Cole and Lawler say the fans are crazy for cheering for Punk. Even in Chicago, they slated the fans numerous times.

 

The small things have done more damage for Roman than good, whether it's awful commentary, continuously changing his character from badass, to underdog, to badass, to underdog. I remember the night Roman started wearing contact lenses and it was such an idiotic change that it sparked a race row on social media, that they made him change his eye colour to look "More white". The whole thing and carefully micromanaging every little detail of Roman, just makes Roman Reigns feel corporate. From his terrible scripted promos, to his weird change of eyecolour, to the cringeworthy nicknames and catchphrases. They're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, and if they dont realise that Roman will never be the next John Cena, then they will miss out on the chance of him becoming the first Roman Reigns. The dude could be a top star for years to come, if they just stop being so forceful with him, for all we know there is a real personality in there, but we will never know if WWE keep trying to make him someone he isn't nor will he ever be

[Devilb0y]

Blaming the fans for voicing their opinions of a product they like is the absolute worst logic I've ever seen and I see it all the time with wrestling fans. The company's sole purpose is to entertain those very people who are saying they are not entertained and yet the company continues to assume they know better.

 

But those people are still tuning in every week...

[AfRoMaN36]

But those people are still tuning in every week...

 

Not as many, no. The post WM RAW did 1.3 million less than the same show a year before.

[niall2015]

But those people are still tuning in every week...

 

No they aren't, that's the problem. More and more people are tuning out. Even if they were still tuning in, isn't that the worst mindset to have in business? WWE is an entertainment business, their job is to entertain their customers, if they dont entertain their fans, the customers will leave, which is what is happening. They're too busy trying to bring in mainstream attention, that they are taking their existing fans for granted, which in turn is driving them away

[OldStingberg]

But those people are still tuning in every week...

 

Not according to the ratings...

[OldStingberg]

No they aren't, that's the problem. More and more people are tuning out. Even if they were still tuning in, isn't that the worst mindset to have in business? WWE is an entertainment business, their job is to entertain their customers, if they dont entertain their fans, the customers will leave, which is what is happening. They're too busy trying to bring in mainstream attention, that they are taking their existing fans for granted, which in turn is driving them away

 

And they're driving away the wrong people. They're driving away the people that will spend hundreds of dollars to attend events, buy merch, etc. Might have something to do with why their net profit has dropped notably in recent years.

[SirMichaelJordan]

I'm really sorry to continue to the trend of taking this forum off topic, but...

 

 

 

 

 

Batista was a church deacon his first night in the company. It wasn't until a few years in, becoming Triple H's muscle that he naturally got over and the company capitalized.

 

Brock was overpushed from the get-go, but he had Paul Heyman. Paul Heyman can turn anything into gold. If Brock was relied on to cut promos and say "suffering sucotash" he would most likely bomb too.

 

Triple H needing to be carried is laughable. He is still the top heel in this company after 15 years.

 

John Cena got mixed reactions because he was booked as Hulk Hogan 2.0 in a world where the people don't want to see Hulk Hogan anymore. They were sick of it in the early nineties, much less in 2005, even less so now. If you noticed, even before he got hurt, Cena was starting to get better crowd reactions. This is because he was no longer the forced fed focal point of every show. And the logic that just the fact that he actually gets a reaction justifies his push is so frustrating to hear. It's like if I were to watch a TV show, where there is a character that is meant to be liked, but there is a visceral viewer reaction to the contrary. And the show just keeps using him exactly the same way because "well at least they're reacting to him." No, that person would either be written off or have his character changed. It is no different with wrestling.

 

Blaming the fans for voicing their opinions of a product they like is the absolute worst logic I've ever seen and I see it all the time with wrestling fans. The company's sole purpose is to entertain those very people who are saying they are not entertained and yet the company continues to assume they know better.

 

Reigns was in the Shield which was the hottest thing in the WWE at the time.

 

Batista didn't "earn" his respect once he went solo.

[AfRoMaN36]

RBatista didn't "earn" his respect once he went solo.

 

"Earning" is debatable. What isn't was that fans warmed up to him organically, before the company pulled the trigger.

[Lex Star]

This a discussion in regards to how it works in TEW. Hence it being posted in the TEW general discussion section not the dog pound. Your argument has nothing to do with what I was saying.

 

Reigns in TEW right now would have to have high popularity if replicating reality is intended.

 

Yeah, but using that logic, everyone on the WWE roster would need to have to have a high popularity, because the event would have drawn the same number regardless of the Main Event.

 

It's impossible to accurately simulate Roman Reigns' situation in TEW. I have a feeling the closest we will get will be if you choose a Figurehead that just shouldn't be your Figurehead, however that is supposed to tank business, something which isn't really happening because at this point WWE (at the very least WrestleMania) sells itself, and the people rejecting Reigns still go to WWE events to see everyone else they do like, and still get the WWE Network for at the very least NXT.

 

It's hard to tell where exactly Reigns sits popularity-wise, because the fans are just rejecting him, he could very well be a legit Main Eventer, but the fans are tired of people who never lose being booked like underdogs. We are told one thing and shown something completely different. It's hard to suspend your disbelief when Cena comes out on top 90% of the time (When Owens beat him at EC last year it was his first clean loss since SummerSlam 2014, and only his 10th clean loss in a DECADE), but we are to believe he is in grave danger of losing and fans just don't want Reigns to be the next Cena.

[olympia]

History repeats itself. I remember all too well when a young Rocky Maivia was pushed too much too soon. I mean, the kid oozed charisma and was the son of Hall of Famer Rocky Johnson - why not push him to the moon. NO! The fans chanted "rocky must die" -- how discouraging that must have been to the young man. But some seasoned promoters made the right moves - he turned heel, joined the Nation of Domination, and quickly accepted as a top heel. When the time came to return to good guy status, fans wanted to cheer for him, and his catch phrases were huge.

 

return to modern day -- can you predict Roman turning heel against the uber over AJ Styles? forming a new heel faction (rebirth of Shield or join forces with League of Nations?etc) Then as he gains traction as the major heel, he might be able to follow the path of his relative The Rock to become a major face.

 

with that said, NEVER book long verbal skits or in ring promos the Monday Night after Wrestlemania!!! Those fans are rude (singing and chanting to detract and ruin what they are trying to say and do in the ring). it is so annoying

[SirMichaelJordan]

He'll form a faction with Anderson & Gallows

 

Lmao I can only imagine the crying.

 

 

But seriously all this talk about the "fans" rejecting him is really just people rejecting his gimmick. He has a wholesome babyface gimmick that doesn't suit him. People loved what he was doing the day after Mania (and loved him coming out of TLC) and the same fans that are rejecting him are the same guys calling for a heel turn. It's not rocket science to recreate in TEW. Not sure why creative woukd give him that wholesome gimmick, maybe it sells more? (Something to add for future TEW?)

[Jaysin]

I just had to delete an entire page's worth of arguing. Take it to PM's if you want to continue. Otherwise, let's be civil guys.

[Genadi]

There's two different discussions taking place. One in regards to how to replicate the Reigns situation in TEW and the other one which I think is better suited to the dog pound, how popular is Reigns.

 

I think a lot of misunderstanding stems from the above. That's all I'll say on the matter.

[mrwhippy]

He's babyface, with popularity and momentum in the 70s range. Solid enough but when you have the likes of Brock Lesnar, John Cena, Seth Rollins, Randy Orton not appearing regular for a long time now, plus WWE struggling to create a group of new stars, he's a victim of the situation. Rewind 15 years and we'd all be popping like crazy for this guy because the situation would allow him to feature to his strengths - not his strengths AND weaknesses.

 

You can't reflect the fan revolt in TEW but what you can reflect is the fact that WWE as a company has more popularity than the current regular main eventers on the roster. Reigns is fairly over but him being the focal point of main event matches and angles would give you the message "our popularity decreased in x regions" or in the case of a hot show no change at all. It would take some terrific booking to put WWE back on an increased popularity trend at present.

[mharmon99]

History repeats itself. I remember all too well when a young Rocky Maivia was pushed too much too soon. I mean, the kid oozed charisma and was the son of Hall of Famer Rocky Johnson - why not push him to the moon. NO! The fans chanted "rocky must die" -- how discouraging that must have been to the young man. But some seasoned promoters made the right moves - he turned heel, joined the Nation of Domination, and quickly accepted as a top heel. When the time came to return to good guy status, fans wanted to cheer for him, and his catch phrases were huge.

 

return to modern day -- can you predict Roman turning heel against the uber over AJ Styles? forming a new heel faction (rebirth of Shield or join forces with League of Nations?etc) Then as he gains traction as the major heel, he might be able to follow the path of his relative The Rock to become a major face.

 

with that said, NEVER book long verbal skits or in ring promos the Monday Night after Wrestlemania!!! Those fans are rude (singing and chanting to detract and ruin what they are trying to say and do in the ring). it is so annoying

 

Right, they are so ignorant. It's seems like most fans today are very ignorant and unappreciative.