The Roman Reigns Effect

[Waters]

And unfortunately, they only have two proven 'ace heels' in the company. One, he just beat. The other is out injured (alpha predator/viper dude).

 

The WWE, in my opinion, has more than just two 'ace heels'. Seth Rollins is definitely up there with Triple H and Orton.

[vampmon]

The WWE, in my opinion, has more than just two 'ace heels'. Seth Rollins is definitely up there with Triple H and Orton.

 

On the fence there. He's deffinately a good heel, but the ace? Not sure. Think a lot of his heel heat came from association (Shield, Authority), he's unproven as the lone heel.

[Remianen]

The WWE, in my opinion, has more than just two 'ace heels'. Seth Rollins is definitely up there with Triple H and Orton.

 

On the fence there. He's deffinately a good heel, but the ace? Not sure. Think a lot of his heel heat came from association (Shield, Authority), he's unproven as the lone heel.

 

Exactly! He's good at being the cowardly, weaselly heel and his in-ring ability helps immensely with getting and maintaining heat. However, Trips and Orton have done it for 10, 15, 20 years. Rollins has done it (as a singles worker) for what, 18 months? I don't believe in crowning people among the best ever for less than two years of success. Besides, when Rollins returns, it's almost guaranteed to be as a babyface (and if not, the fans will force him to be).

 

Also, as niall pointed out, there are no matchups involving Roman Reigns that seem even the least bit exciting. By comparison, any combination of AJ, Cesaro, Zayn, Owens, (eventually) Balor, and even Ziggler (if they decide to quit burying him), would be must-see. (Also possibly Joe, Aries, and Roode) What makes things worse is, they can't put those matches on Raw because it'll only make the title matches stand out in relief. They already have to deal with NXT kickin' their butts. It's only going to get worse when an AJ-Cesaro throwaway Raw match comes out better than the AJ-Reigns title match on PPV.

[Jaysin]

It's only going to get worse when an AJ-Cesaro throwaway Raw match comes out better than the AJ-Reigns title match on PPV.

 

Substitute a couple names and you have mid to late 90s WCW.

[Bad Collin]

Exactly! He's good at being the cowardly, weaselly heel and his in-ring ability helps immensely with getting and maintaining heat. However, Trips and Orton have done it for 10, 15, 20 years. Rollins has done it (as a singles worker) for what, 18 months? I don't believe in crowning people among the best ever for less than two years of success. Besides, when Rollins returns, it's almost guaranteed to be as a babyface (and if not, the fans will force him to be).

 

Also, as niall pointed out, there are no matchups involving Roman Reigns that seem even the least bit exciting. By comparison, any combination of AJ, Cesaro, Zayn, Owens, (eventually) Balor, and even Ziggler (if they decide to quit burying him), would be must-see. (Also possibly Joe, Aries, and Roode) What makes things worse is, they can't put those matches on Raw because it'll only make the title matches stand out in relief. They already have to deal with NXT kickin' their butts. It's only going to get worse when an AJ-Cesaro throwaway Raw match comes out better than the AJ-Reigns title match on PPV.

 

Roman is a heel now. He's acting cocky and facing the hottest babyface at the next PPV. They seem to be going down the Roman v internet favourites route. I imagine he'll see off AJ, Sami and Owens before Rollins returns.

 

I think that AJ v Reigns match will be great. The crowd will be super hot behind AJ and he always delivers in the big matches. Reigns is a good wrestler with a great deal of charisma, he's just been killed by the fan's reaction to a dull gimmick and having him shoved down their throats. If we can forget about the fact that there is 0% chance of AJ winning it will be very enjoyable.

[Bad Collin]

The other problem is that Roman's story line is completely opposite to the real life situation which doesn't really work in the 'Reality Era'.

[niall2015]

The other problem is that Roman's story line is completely opposite to the real life situation which doesn't really work in the 'Reality Era'.

 

This is very true. The only people believe as underdogs are the CM Punks and Daniel Bryans, the people who everybody knows aren't supposed to be main eventers. The closest to that right now is either Damien Sandow or Cesaro and Cesaro could potentially break out too, Sandow though has no chance. It's hard to imagine a muscled up, former NFL football player who could kick anybody's ass as an underdog, especially when you know how much the WWE likes him. Then again, it was hard to picture Cena as an underdog but they still overdid it with him.

[Lex Star]

I don't agree with this. Well, in many ways I do. His skills aren't main event quality. His gimmick is letting him down. He's not the best.

 

But I don't think that's what's happening. Roman isn't failing to get over. The fans are rejecting him, and no matter all of the (valid) reasons they give about Roman not being the guy, it's not a matter of unfulfilled destiny (or unplaceable blandness, ala Billy Gunn) this is outright rejection. "We're going to do the opposite of what you say" rejection. And I put the blame more on...

 

1) Ill-will towards the promotion. Like John Cena, they reject him because the company hasn't done right by them.

2) Because he isn't someone else. They prefer a Daniel Bryan, so whoever is picked above him will be rejected.

 

I don't think the Roman Reigns effect has anything to do with destiny. It's spite more than anything, and I don't know if there's anything in TEW that simulates that.

 

I agree somewhat, it is something TEW can't simulate with perfect accuracy. I was trying to translate it to the closest way you'd be able to simulate it in TEW.

 

However, it's not spite at least not initially, it's terrible booking. The forcing of Reigns down our throats has turned it into spite. If they had handled him properly. Instead of completely scripting his promos and making him a cheesy face, they should have just let him be himself. He was getting cheers at TLC when he attacked HHH after he lost the TLC match.

 

Then the next night on RAW he lost that edge he showed the night before and was back to cracking cheesy jokes.

 

It's a mix of

 

1) Terrible booking, gimmick and promos.

2) The fans not wanting another John Cena situation for the next decade. They are rejecting the notion of a "figurehead"

3) Wanting someone else. Apparently Vince's idea of who should be "the guy" and the fans' idea are vastly contrasted. However, Vince isn't stupid (I hope.) and at this point he's obviously playing everyone like a fiddle. It's like John Cena, at this point turning Reigns heel would actually get the fans to embrace him. I think Reigns' title reign will be Reigns vs Internet Darlings and it will be purposeful. This would have been more effective if they didn't try and make him look like an underdog babyface and instead just booked him like a beast steamrolling everyone the crowd adores be they face or heel.

[kingjames]

His "The Guy" promo was exactly what he needed. It's a (currently) soft heel turn - game terms, it'd be the whole "preparing to make a turn, showing heel tendencies" thing. Maybe they pay it off, maybe not. Or perhaps it represents a gimmick change - from "Underdog", which is maybe a "wholesome" gimmick that Roman has a low score in, and thus bombed when using the "underdog" gimmick - to something like "Bad Ass", which is a significantly more fitting gimmick.

 

Honestly, this is going back to the Roman Reigns the ever-capricious IWC loved as part of the Shield. Don't say too much, radiate supreme confidence, and end things with a physical exclamation point. Hell, he's got a somewhat limited move set. So did Stone Cold, post broken neck. So did the Rock. So did, and especially now does, the Undertaker. Most of the iconic WWE main eventers have had a limited moveset. What mattered is giving them the right character so that their interactions with other characters felt sincere, and generated interesting stories from those interactions.

 

If they keep this up, I think he pulls himself out of the hole they dug him. Some people, especially online, will forever hate him no matter what he does after this point. But a program where Roman faces Internet darlings strikes me as the correct and long-overdue evolution from his Shield days. They keep this Roman, I think it corrects a lot of the booking issues that are at the core of the Roman Reigns Effect.

[Self]

Spite wasn't quite the correct word. I'll tip my cap to that.

[James Casey]

Reigns is built to glower - like Vader, like Sid, like so many other big, intimidating guys who've been pushed as monsters. Reigns isn't huge, by WWE standards, but he hits with the force of a bigger guy.

 

A near silent executioner? No pandering to the fans, no seeking cheers (or boos), just going out and smashing through his opponents? The crowd would get behind that in a positive way.

 

It's not like WWE don't already have a Samoan wrestler doing pretty much the exact same thing down in NXT - but Reigns has a bit more range on the mic than Joe, I'd say.

 

He has the presence, he has the charisma, he has the fighting style... He just needs to be used in a way that maximises his skills. He had huge momentum from late 2013 through to late 2014, but trying to push him over Daniel Bryan was a colossal error on WWE's part and saw him lose a lot of goodwill. Maintaining that push without adapting the character at all has just been ridiculous.

[kingjames]

Been thinking about it a little more, and though I don't think you can entirely replicate the Reigns main event push saga, there are definitely things that can approximate.

 

Poor Gimmick Penalty: Mentioned early by me and by Lex Star at the same time (great minds, right? ). Shield-era Roman Reigns had a "Bad Ass" or "Mercenary" or similar gimmick, maybe relying on "Cool" or "Cocky", which I would rate him highly in. Main event push Reigns was given an Underdog gimmick or similar, relying on "Wholesome", something he does not rate highly in and does not have the other necessary attributes to perform well. As a result, the gimmick change bombs hard - like, rated in the 20s hard. Maybe Vince & the writing staff play TEW and think they can't change the gimmick until the "far too soon to change" penalty expires. But anyway, everything he does, segment and match, suffers from the poor gimmick penalty.

 

Poor Segment Booking: Saddled with the poor booking penalties is hard enough. However, Vince is apparently really bad at playing TEW or exists in a permanent Fog of War even regarding his own employees, and does not know that Roman Reigns does not have particularly high mic or acting scores. Despite this, because he's running a Pop >>> Perf fed with TV shows with a 70% angles/30% match setting, wants to put the guy he wants to push in as many angles as possible in an attempt to increase his Popularity.

 

Unfortunately, Vince decides to place Reigns in angles that require Mic, Entertainment, and Acting. Predictably, these angles bring in low scores. It does not occur to Vince to have instead used angles relying on Overness (which he had a pretty good amount of at the beginning of his solo push, plus high Momentum) - which, since they don't have a "scripted/unscripted" checkbox, don't require him to speak much and thus dodge the penalties due to Reigns' pedestrian scores. Nor does he use angles based on Menace, which Reigns has a pretty good score in, and in fact, was part of his Popularity gains when he debuted with the Shield since they didn't rely on Overness.

 

Vince continues to do this despite middling results because Vince really loved TEW 1985, and continues to book like he was playing that version, despite vast differences between TEW 1985 and the current version. Probably because in TEW 1985, he knocked out every other opponent in multiplayer except for one guy who might as well have had an infinite money cheat code. DAMN YOU TURNER!!!

 

Poorly Booked Matches: Reigns has generally average scores in most of his in-ring performance skills, with lower Aerial and Chain Wrestling skills but a notably high Brawl skill to go along with high power and a higher-than-expected agility skill. Despite this, Vince doesn't take advantage of the ability to create your own match types very often and therefore doesn't create and permanently save into the database "1 vs. 1 Hoss-Fight Slobberknocker", a match type that is Brawl-based. Nor does he play to strengths and match him with another high-Brawl wrestler, except when he decides to push low-ass momentum Sheamus from the Upper Midcard. There are even times when they put him into matches which go against his strengths, like WrestleMania main events matches that seem to be based on Submission or Chain Wrestling skills. Predictably, these tank.

 

Beyond that, Vince doesn't really understand how to use "Protect" and "Keep Strong", incorporating those into his booking notes for every match because he thinks it will push Roman faster, when it actually is lowering the match score. Maybe because in worked in TEW 1985, or the penalty was outweighed by the gain, but again, Vince has failed to change his booking with the more recent updates.

 

Big Maybe - Low Destiny Roll: Since we can't see under the hood, and since there's no real life DB editor, it's possible that despite having an impressive Star Quality - we all thought he would be a big star when he was part of the Shield - maybe Reigns rolled a poor destiny roll. As such his popularity may move way slower than it should on paper. But Vince, like many a TEW player before and after him, sees those stats and forges ahead, despite the lack of popularity gains. Though, given all the above penalties, maybe Roman's destiny roll is just fine.

 

I mean...maybe some of you all haven't irrationally fallen in love with a character in the C-Verse (where I don't have the real life baggage) who looks statwise like they ought to be a megastar, only to find out after too, too long that despite it all, they don't develop the way you thought they should. Guilty as charged here.

 

And maybe Vince is playing TEW with a bunch of other programs running in the background, with IMs going off constantly, e-mail coming in and out like mad, trying to review things in Photoshop and running the WWE Network, and as such he's not focused on playing the game, and makes bizarre, nonsense decisions and bookings. And maybe I'm beating this metaphor to death, or at least stomping a mudhole in it and walking it dry.

 

ANYWAY. My point is not "roman riegns is teh BEsT nd u r haterz and stooped", because liking or not liking a performer is ultimately your opinion. I don't think Reigns is a dude scoring in across the board mid-40s, in TEW terms, but as any modmaker will tell you, that's ultimately a subjective judgment call. My opinion is that Reigns is a performer with some high-upside strengths and some middling scores in others, who has been booked in ways that fail to take advantage of the strengths and lean heavily on the weaknesses. Like the Bizarro version of Paul Heyman's ECW booking, where far more limited upside dudes got over much harder because Paul spammed the shit out of angles and matches that fit what they could do and kept dudes out of angles and matches that would rely on what they couldn't.

 

Jesus, that's a lot more than I thought I had to say on this topic. You think if I turned this into a Media Studies university department that they've give me credit for at least a Master's Degree thesis?

[Gypsumstack]

I can't fathom why Vince is having so much trouble getting Roman over. A big powerhouse with all the looks but lacking the mic skills of a top star. So basically, Batista. Surely Vince has access to the WWE Network. Go back and watch all of 2005. There, problem solved.

[combolock]

I can't fathom why Vince is having so much trouble getting Roman over. A big powerhouse with all the looks but lacking the mic skills of a top star. So basically, Batista. Surely Vince has access to the WWE Network. Go back and watch all of 2005. There, problem solved.

 

2005 fans are way different that 2016 fans.

 

Compare 1985 fans to 1995 fans and there is a mighty difference as well.

[dpoolez]

2005 fans are way different that 2016 fans.

 

Compare 1985 fans to 1995 fans and there is a mighty difference as well.

 

I'd argue that 2005 and 2015 fans are a lot more similar than 1985 and 1995 fans.

 

Remember, in 2005 Cena suffered the same results (getting booed) by being forced down our throats just like Roman is now.

 

And about Batista, he was never overexposed, he had a big push but he wasn't necessarily booked as an unstoppable underdog like Cena/Roman were, WWE protected his character and kept him badass, and he had the privilege of beating the most hated wrestler of the past 2 decades in HHH.

 

If WWE took the same level of care and caution with Roman that they did for Batista, his feud with HHH would have gotten him over to a much higher degree than it did, instead of HHH being the face in the fans eyes.

[Diabolo80]

I can't fathom why Vince is having so much trouble getting Roman over. A big powerhouse with all the looks but lacking the mic skills of a top star. So basically, Batista. Surely Vince has access to the WWE Network. Go back and watch all of 2005. There, problem solved.

Batista was a by-product of Hunter vs Orton and not the focal point of every single RAW, Smackdown & PPV. Also, he Roman Reigns in-ring skills are on the Level of Deacon Batista, not Evolution Batista.

 

To me Reigns always looks like a bad Actor in a mediocre Broadway Play. I just see that he is playing the role. Compare Reigns reaction to AJ Styles at the Rumble to Cenas reaction to Cult of Personality, Hunters Reaction to Cena as Royal Rumble Entry #30 etc. and you see what i mean.

[Genadi]

Reigns just headlined the biggest companies biggest event of the year, to boot the card drew a record 100k card. I know the argument WWE and WM are the draw and personally agree with it but thinking of it in TEW terms and how it should translate in game sure is interesting.

 

I was more of the view that in TEW he would have (as many have said) high momentum and low pop but now I'm thinking the opposite. It's as if he has B+ popularity with big crowds willing to pay to see him with great merch sales yet his momentum is at (around) C- despite the company piling all of it's resources into pushing him... He has had B+ momentum at times early in his run but every time he cuts a promo nowadays it hits his momentum. Add to that the road agent note "Reigns character is very stale, you should consider turning him" It's like TEW is punishing Reigns momentum as a result of all those factors but his pop still high enough to main event WM.

 

In the last TEW games I've found momentum far harder to master then popularity. It could just be me but I see Reigns as that one worker no matter who I have him dominate etc just won't gain momentum. I'm looking at you Acid.

[Kijar]

Reigns just headlined the biggest companies biggest event of the year, to boot the card drew a record 100k card. I know the argument WWE and WM are the draw and personally agree with it but thinking of it in TEW terms and how it should translate in game sure is interesting.

 

I was more of the view that in TEW he would have (as many have said) high momentum and low pop but now I'm thinking the opposite. It's as if he has B+ popularity with big crowds willing to pay to see him with great merch sales yet his momentum is at (around) C- despite the company piling all of it's resources into pushing him... He has had B+ momentum at times early in his run but every time he cuts a promo nowadays it hits his momentum. Add to that the road agent note "Reigns character is very stale, you should consider turning him" It's like TEW is punishing Reigns momentum as a result of all those factors but his pop still high enough to main event WM.

 

In the last TEW games I've found momentum far harder to master then popularity. It could just be me but I see Reigns as that one worker no matter who I have him dominate etc just won't gain momentum. I'm looking at you Acid.

 

Very well said.

 

The usual pick for me on this is Shannon Moore, as I always bring him to build up as an underdog or some lackey fighting the boss at first, and the means work just fine but it never quite works out.

 

Also someone that you see potential that has naturally progressed more than you thought they would doesn't necessarily fit Reigns, but can in a sense. Reigns was very much looking strong on his own within the Shield, and it seems before his (although inevitable) push that Vince hadn't yet found untapped Roman Reigns, and went ahead and pulled the trigger slightly too soon. It's the this Upper Midcarder won't get anymore over right now situation. If any of that made sense.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Reigns charisma is his highest entertainment rating. He was charimatic with the shield and stood out the most with his mannerism (of course star quality helped) despite talking less.

 

His acting and mic are poor (acting being way lower than mic)

 

The booking of Reigns, gimmick and momentum is why his segments fall flat. The guy is popular otherwise he would get no reaction from the crowd.

[Moe Hunter]

It's really a tough question, I be been trying to figure out how (if) you can replicate Roman's past two years in TEW. He's not especially untalented, and it's hard to say he's "unpopular", but he is pushed too high on the card. My best bet would be that he had a poor gimmick, or potentially he had gimmick changes too frequently (tater tots, silent badass, etc)... Maybe his Face Performance rating is really low, and that's why the crowds aren't buying him.

 

I've also been pondering the likes of Sandow, who got incredibly over despite being punished with bad gimmicks and losing streaks. And Zack Ryder, who got over while not even being on the shows. There's no real way for TEW to emulate this situations, is there?

[Genadi]

It's really a tough question, I be been trying to figure out how (if) you can replicate Roman's past two years in TEW. He's not especially untalented, and it's hard to say he's "unpopular", but he is pushed too high on the card. My best bet would be that he had a poor gimmick, or potentially he had gimmick changes too frequently (tater tots, silent badass, etc)... Maybe his Face Performance rating is really low, and that's why the crowds aren't buying him.

 

I've also been pondering the likes of Sandow, who got incredibly over despite being punished with bad gimmicks and losing streaks. And Zack Ryder, who got over while not even being on the shows. There's no real way for TEW to emulate this situations, is there?

 

He drew a record number as I mentioned above, how can he be pushed too high up the card in TEW terms if that's the case? In TEW he is undoubtedly a main eventer.

[Self]

I've also been pondering the likes of Sandow, who got incredibly over despite being punished with bad gimmicks and losing streaks. And Zack Ryder, who got over while not even being on the shows. There's no real way for TEW to emulate this situations, is there?

 

With Sandow, I'd suggest that the Mizdow gimmick was an A*, but (as I think is a feature in '16) had a short shelf life. Ryder, yeah, he got over thanks in part of internet presence, which isn't a thing in TEW.

 

Both of whom I think Charisma was a factor. Ratings & crowd reactions in TEW aren't just down to popularity, momentum & gimmicks. Skills matter. Both Ryder and Sandow were more skilled (not in every way granted) than their push. Dolph Ziggler is the big one of those for me. Popularity is decent. Momentum is poor. But his skills far exceed that so when he wrestles, he gets bigger reactions than the pop/mom would suggest.

[TeemuFoundation]

Dolph Ziggler is way worse than his push has ever been. One of the worst pro wrestlers I have ever seen in my entire history of watching wrestling.

[niall2015]

Dolph Ziggler is way worse than his push has ever been. One of the worst pro wrestlers I have ever seen in my entire history of watching wrestling.

 

Dolph is definitely as bad as Roman in terms of mic skills. He's a great jobber, but he is cringeworthy when he becomes part of a storyline. He only gets pops because he was good a couple of years ago. Plus his Twitter game is weak af, he's trying too hard to be Kevin Owens online

[Moe Hunter]

He drew a record number as I mentioned above, how can he be pushed too high up the card in TEW terms if that's the case? In TEW he is undoubtedly a main eventer.

How on earth can you lean on that logic?

 

WM32 broke an attendance record because it was held in a huge arena. WMXX had an attendance of a mere 18,000 - does that mean Shawn Michaels, Triple H and Chris Benoit in 2004 were only a fifth the draw that Roman Reigns is?

 

WM32 was mostly sold out before any matches were even announced. Reigns isn't a draw, Wrestlemania is. Ambrose vs Triple H would have had the same attendance. AJ Styles vs Brock Lesnar would have had the same attendance.

 

Reigns didn't draw a record crowd, he performed in front of a record crowd... Whom WWE wanted to cheer him, but instead met him with thunderous boos to the point where they cut the audio and blasted a million pyros to cover it up, while the announcers claimed the crowd was going nuts for him.