The All Elite Wrestling Discussion Thread

[MightyDavidson]

2 hours ago, Big Roguey said:

Okay so removing the hyperbole, it sounds like you just don't like hardcore wrestling (although from my limited watching of AEW shows, it feels like that description doesn't quite fit every Jon Moxley match). I feel like there is an easier way of saying that than repeating buzzword phrases coined by Jim Cornette.

Especially considering the Danielson/Kingston match was an excellent match by all accounts.

[MightyDavidson]

3 minutes ago, Jaysin said:

Eddie Kingston is a better professional wrestler than the Young Bucks any day of the week and a better character, talker, and more believable.

Comparing him to death match clowns is pretty idiotic.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Self]

4 hours ago, Big Roguey said:

What does "outlaw mudshow matches" even mean? Like genuinely?

I don't know if Jim Cornette coined it, but that's where I hear it most.

"Outlaw" is from the territory days, when each area officially had one promotion backed by the NWA. Every once in a while an upstart promotion would try to run their own shows, and these were known as 'outlaws'. Not backed by the governing body. Working for these promotions was a risky move, as you wouldn't want to risk get on bad side of the NWA and every major territory that belongs to it. So the talent on these outlaw shows tended to be worse. Worse training. Worse physiques. Worse gear. Guys who had burned bridges or failed to get noticed or who just wanted to play around. 

And it wasn't just the talent. Production values. Budgets. Access to quality buildings that have deals with the NWA promotions.  Sometimes their outlaws would run outside, with wrestlers entering by walking through the mud. "Mud shows". 

Cornette has co-opted the term to mean "things he doesn't like" but the general sentiment is the same. Guys with bad physiques, bad gear, bad training, doing things that you would be run out of the business for, if you'd tried it in 1980's NWA.  Not just deathmatch stuff, but also the lazy take-it-in-turns brawling you get nowadays. 

Edited March 9 by Self
Adding more

[John Lions]

12 hours ago, Wrestling Machine said:

He has never been a favorite of mine, but to see a top wrestler like Bryan Danielson used like this must be a criminal act. Stuck for months fighting outlaw mudshow matches alongside Moxley, and now defeated by Eddie Kingston who god good is soooo bad in the ring that I don't understand at all how he can have fans of his in-ring skills. It's all tragically comical at this point.

Danielson's last 6 months or so, with an Ospreay singles match on the horizon. If this is criminal usage of a hall of fame talent then I would love to hear how he could be booked better!

[Dalton]

Moxley and Danielson worked a total of three hardcore-stip matches together in AEW. May 2022, May 2023, December 2023 (the final was a tribute match that wasn't all that crazy).

I wish I lived in the reality where Moxley and Danielson spent months doing outlaw mudshow matches together. That sounds awesome.

Edited March 9 by Dalton

[Hollywood]

1 hour ago, John Lions said:

Danielson's last 6 months or so, with an Ospreay singles match on the horizon. If this is criminal usage of a hall of fame talent then I would love to hear how he could be booked better!

We all know the best way to book Bryan Danielson is force him to sit on the sidelines (despite being medically cleared by a handful of doctors not affiliated with the company) wasting some of the prime years of his career because he got over when his biggest detractors didn’t want him to.

[overthetop2]

7 hours ago, Big Roguey said:

I feel like there is an easier way of saying that than repeating buzzword phrases coined by Jim Cornette.

Smackdown vs Raw 2006 tribute match 😆

[Eternal Phoenix]

37 minutes ago, overthetop2 said:

Smackdown vs Raw 2006 tribute match 😆

Man, that one's just rude. That was a good game, dammit.  I mean, nobody ever stayed down for mroe than I dunno, 2-3 seconds, but otherwise it was fantastic. (Yes, I et that's the point, but I'm still annoyed.)

[MightyDavidson]

Heard Sammy Guevara was suspended, possibly due to that botched spot in the match with Jeff Hardy.  Anybody hear anything about that?

[Matt_Black]

"How can we make Mariah May less interesting?"

"... Dress her up as the version of Toni Storm we couldn't get over?"

"... BRILLIANT!"

[Matt_Black]

The ONE time when it would have been perfectly legal to have their SEVEN FOOT TALL MONSTER HEEL come in and help them cheat, and Satnam Singh stays in the back?!? Will Ospreay was right, AEW must have REALLY good sandwiches!
 

[Questlove]

19 hours ago, Big Roguey said:

What does "outlaw mudshow matches" even mean? Like genuinely?

"Wrestling match I don't like with wrestler I don't like" seems to be what it means nowadays, just one of those phrases to completely ignore

[Wrestling Machine]

17 hours ago, Big Roguey said:

Okay so removing the hyperbole, it sounds like you just don't like hardcore wrestling (although from my limited watching of AEW shows, it feels like that description doesn't quite fit every Jon Moxley match). I feel like there is an easier way of saying that than repeating buzzword phrases coined by Jim Cornette.

Nope, i don't like outlaw mudshow matches. I don't have a bias about hardcore matches, it depends on whether they follow some damn logic or not and whether they are credible.

 

14 hours ago, Jaysin said:

Eddie Kingston is a better professional wrestler than the Young Bucks any day of the week and a better character, talker, and more believable.

Comparing him to death match clowns is pretty idiotic.

Not sure who made this comparison Kingston-Bucks, not a fan of any of them tbh.

Besides that, if you re-read my comment you will understand that when I talked about Eddie Kingston I didn't compare him to "death match clowns" but I said it seems absurd to me to see Danielson losing clean to him when he freakin' sucks in the ring. And I will add the fact that he also has zero star quality (or AURA as is so fashionable to say now) and he's absolutely not a draw. I was wondering what is the point of having a major star like Danielson lose to him.

 

14 hours ago, MightyDavidson said:

Especially considering the Danielson/Kingston match was an excellent match by all accounts.

We probably saw two different matches man what can I say, we probably saw two different matches man what can I say, Kingston's chops, knee strikes, kicks are so lame and terrible. But the point of my speech wasn't even that lol, it's not that hard to understand. Why you should have your biggest draw probably losing clean to Eddie Kingston? What's the point from a business point of view?

 

11 hours ago, John Lions said:

Danielson's last 6 months or so, with an Ospreay singles match on the horizon. If this is criminal usage of a hall of fame talent then I would love to hear how he could be booked better!

Who talked about last 6 months?  😂   😂   😂  I specifically wrote how I didn't understand the benefit of putting a LEGEND like Danielson with BCC for months instead of capitalizing on him being the biggest name in the company probably, a major name and one of the best wrestlers in the world. And how I didn't understand the benefit of having Danielson lose clean against Kingston, who among other things seems to me objectively poor when it comes to in-ring skills.

 

11 hours ago, Dalton said:

Moxley and Danielson worked a total of three hardcore-stip matches together in AEW. May 2022, May 2023, December 2023 (the final was a tribute match that wasn't all that crazy).

I wish I lived in the reality where Moxley and Danielson spent months doing outlaw mudshow matches together. That sounds awesome.

Yes on that I might remember wrong, maybe they had fewer matches together than I remember. But still, like I wrote up here, I never understood the benefit of flanking Danielson with that group instead of capitalizing on him and really growing this promotion. Regarding Danielson-Moxley matches, to me it sounds not that awesome lol but I guess everyone has their own taste

[FellaLibby]

10 hours ago, MightyDavidson said:

Heard Sammy Guevara was suspended, possibly due to that botched spot in the match with Jeff Hardy.  Anybody hear anything about that?

They say it's because he did his finisher onto Jeff rather than just pin him after his knee smashed Jeff's face. I think the wording was: He was supposed to go right to the finish, but instead he did his finisher. I think what they wanted him to like small package or roll up Jeff, not do his finisher, which is like a GTS, to an already messed up head injury.

[CQI13]

52 minutes ago, FellaLibby said:

They say it's because he did his finisher onto Jeff rather than just pin him after his knee smashed Jeff's face. I think the wording was: He was supposed to go right to the finish, but instead he did his finisher. I think what they wanted him to like small package or roll up Jeff, not do his finisher, which is like a GTS, to an already messed up head injury.

Do wrestlers now feel the need to hit every spot? Such a disappointment watching a match where they are fighting in the corner and they nearly slip on the way up…and they immediately go for the same move because it was a planned spot. There was even an interview with Moose about when he accidentally chopped Sabin on the throat, and Brian Myers was hanging upside down on the corner. Sabin goes to the back to get checked…and Myers stays in the corner the whole time. Bro, the spot is gone. Move on.

[Eternal Phoenix]

I both understand and don't understand the Eddie Kingston hate. His look ain't exactly fantastic. He's not some chiseled, uber jacked god. He looks like what he is. Just some guy from New York. And that's how his promos work, too. He's not erudite and well spoken. He's not gonna dazzle you with complex metaphors or creative insults. He plays up the fact that he, in fact, just some guy who somehow got here despite sabotaging himself at damn near every opportunity. He's an everyman, y'see. And y'know, this might not work for everyone. Some people prefer their wrestlers to be larger than life superstars. Eddie's many things, but not that. Or they can't relate to his struggles. All they hear is some loser running his mouth. Fair enough. Me, I think he works well because he's charismatic and passionate. He clearly adores pro wrestling and has worked his ass off to get to his current skill level. And, current feud aside, is equally clearly enjoying the hell out of his first run with a major promotion. I can and have gotten behind that.

 

Eddie's ring skills...well, calling him an elite ring general would be lying. But calling his skills s----- is demonstrably false. His AEW run has seem him wrestle some of the finest in the world and not look out of his depth. I mean, his opponents aren't robots and/or slaves. They don't ask "how high" when Tony Khan says jump. AEW's collaborative booking environment has been both praised and criticized for years now. What I'm saying is, if the actual high level professionals booked to lose to him don't have a problem with it, maybe he's actually pretty good? I mean, "good in the ring" is a subjective thing like everything else in wrestling, but y'know.  Me, I think Eddie's pretty great in the ring. His work matches his character. Everyman yes, but also incredible old school King's Road nerd. A man imitating his heroes and idols.

 

Honestly, it's the Orange Cassidy situation all over again. A worker gets over to a high degree, has matches that are well regarded by many if not most, and is both well regarded and popular with the boys in the back. Yet there's a segment of the fandom that simply can't stand them because they're not Doing Wrestling Correctly. Shibata wanted to wrestle Orange. Multiple Japanese legends have flown all the way from Japan to wrestle Eddie. Yeah, they got paid, but that's a long flight to work with someone you don't respect. Plus the hassle of getting a work visa, finding a place to stay, jet lag, etc. In my opinion, there is no one way to Do Wrestling Correctly. One of the reasons AEW was founded was to prove this point. It's like the old saying. If it's stupid and doesn't work, it's just stupid. If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid. AEW's been going strong for five years now. I think it's safe to say that it's not stupid. Of course, certain persons whose ideas about how wrestling is Supposed To Work are still trapped somewhere between 1963 and 1996 can and will disagree. That's the beauty of it. Wrestling is for everyone. we can disagree with each other all day long, and as long as business keeps going strong, nobody's actually wrong.

[Jaysin]

4 hours ago, Wrestling Machine said:

Nope, i don't like outlaw mudshow matches. I don't have a bias about hardcore matches, it depends on whether they follow some damn logic or not and whether they are credible.

 

Not sure who made this comparison Kingston-Bucks, not a fan of any of them tbh.

Besides that, if you re-read my comment you will understand that when I talked about Eddie Kingston I didn't compare him to "death match clowns" but I said it seems absurd to me to see Danielson losing clean to him when he freakin' sucks in the ring. And I will add the fact that he also has zero star quality (or AURA as is so fashionable to say now) and he's absolutely not a draw. I was wondering what is the point of having a major star like Danielson lose to him.

 

We probably saw two different matches man what can I say, we probably saw two different matches man what can I say, Kingston's chops, knee strikes, kicks are so lame and terrible. But the point of my speech wasn't even that lol, it's not that hard to understand. Why you should have your biggest draw probably losing clean to Eddie Kingston? What's the point from a business point of view?

 

Who talked about last 6 months?  😂   😂   😂  I specifically wrote how I didn't understand the benefit of putting a LEGEND like Danielson with BCC for months instead of capitalizing on him being the biggest name in the company probably, a major name and one of the best wrestlers in the world. And how I didn't understand the benefit of having Danielson lose clean against Kingston, who among other things seems to me objectively poor when it comes to in-ring skills.

 

Yes on that I might remember wrong, maybe they had fewer matches together than I remember. But still, like I wrote up here, I never understood the benefit of flanking Danielson with that group instead of capitalizing on him and really growing this promotion. Regarding Danielson-Moxley matches, to me it sounds not that awesome lol but I guess everyone has their own taste

Eddie doesn't suck, you just don't like him. Massive difference 

[CQI13]

I won’t go as far as titles are props, but I do think the story overshadows wins and losses. I get that we don’t always have the whole story in front of us, so we have to engage in the whole “Well if this (insert fantasy booking) is what they are going to do, then it makes sense.” Which inevitably takes a few turns on the way to the conclusion. Don’t follow AEW enough to know what the plan with Kingston is, but I am guessing some people may look back and disagree with the decisions on wins/losses. I guess that’s why we play TEW - and some people may even say the same things about our own booking. Lid for every pot and all that.

[Questlove]

6 hours ago, Wrestling Machine said:

Nope, i don't like outlaw mudshow matches. I don't have a bias about hardcore matches, it depends on whether they follow some damn logic or not and whether they are credible.

 

Not sure who made this comparison Kingston-Bucks, not a fan of any of them tbh.

Besides that, if you re-read my comment you will understand that when I talked about Eddie Kingston I didn't compare him to "death match clowns" but I said it seems absurd to me to see Danielson losing clean to him when he freakin' sucks in the ring. And I will add the fact that he also has zero star quality (or AURA as is so fashionable to say now) and he's absolutely not a draw. I was wondering what is the point of having a major star like Danielson lose to him.

 

We probably saw two different matches man what can I say, we probably saw two different matches man what can I say, Kingston's chops, knee strikes, kicks are so lame and terrible. But the point of my speech wasn't even that lol, it's not that hard to understand. Why you should have your biggest draw probably losing clean to Eddie Kingston? What's the point from a business point of view?

 

Who talked about last 6 months?  😂   😂   😂  I specifically wrote how I didn't understand the benefit of putting a LEGEND like Danielson with BCC for months instead of capitalizing on him being the biggest name in the company probably, a major name and one of the best wrestlers in the world. And how I didn't understand the benefit of having Danielson lose clean against Kingston, who among other things seems to me objectively poor when it comes to in-ring skills.

 

Yes on that I might remember wrong, maybe they had fewer matches together than I remember. But still, like I wrote up here, I never understood the benefit of flanking Danielson with that group instead of capitalizing on him and really growing this promotion. Regarding Danielson-Moxley matches, to me it sounds not that awesome lol but I guess everyone has their own taste

The issue here is exactly what I said. You don't like him so therefore he's an "outlaw mudshow wrestler" and the only reason you have to point to such a label is... you don't like him and you think he sucks. Two different things there tbh. As for whether he's in shape or not, I think history has shown that doesn't actually matter and it especially wouldn't fit his character at ALL for him to look anything like an athlete, the whole point of Kingston is he's relatable.

Danielson should be doing more imo (definitely should have a title run) but it's likely him suggesting all these calls on who he puts over given that he's on his way out and it's really not as big of a deal as you're making it out to be, everything he's doing is awesome

[John Lions]

8 hours ago, Wrestling Machine said:

Who talked about last 6 months?  😂   😂   😂  I specifically wrote how I didn't understand the benefit of putting a LEGEND like Danielson with BCC for months instead of capitalizing on him being the biggest name in the company probably, a major name and one of the best wrestlers in the world. And how I didn't understand the benefit of having Danielson lose clean against Kingston, who among other things seems to me objectively poor when it comes to in-ring skills.

You said "to see a top wrestler like Bryan Danielson used like this must be a criminal act. Stuck for months fighting outlaw mudshow matches alongside Moxley".

He hasn't been wrestling "outlaw mudshow matches alongside Moxley" as Dalton pointed out.

I took a snip of Danielson's last 6 months but I could do the same for his entire AEW run. I'll say it again - if how he's been used in AEW is criminally bad, how would you do it differently? His last 6 months in particular have been potentially one of the best runs of his career, at least in my opinion and many others.

You can just say "I don't like Eddie Kingston and Jon Moxley" without ridiculous hyperbole that pretty much every single person on the forums would call you out on...

[Wrestling Machine]

16 hours ago, Jaysin said:

Eddie doesn't suck, you just don't like him. Massive difference 

If a singer is out of tune, can I say so? Or can I just say that I don't like her?

I have nothing against Eddie Kingston, I would just be happy if he was actually good in ring so I would have another good pro wrestler with good promo skills to enjoy.

 

14 hours ago, Questlove said:

The issue here is exactly what I said. You don't like him so therefore he's an "outlaw mudshow wrestler" and the only reason you have to point to such a label is... you don't like him and you think he sucks. Two different things there tbh. As for whether he's in shape or not, I think history has shown that doesn't actually matter and it especially wouldn't fit his character at ALL for him to look anything like an athlete, the whole point of Kingston is he's relatable.

Moxley is not a outlaw mudshow wrestler because I don't like it, I don't like Moxley because he has tons of outlaw mudshow matches. Is exactly the opposite.

As for whether he's in shape or not, I agree with you! And I don't think every wrestler must have the physique of Randy Orton. Eddie Kingston has his own personality/gimmick that suits him well ... Kevin Owens, Samoa Joe are just a couple of "bulky" examples of great wrestlers.

[milamber]

- Danielson vs Taylor was my MOTN. Ospreay!

- Elite vs Jobbers was a solid squash. Kingston! Penta! PAC!

- Mariah Storm vs Adora was solid but handicapped by a lack of time as usual.

- Toni (with an I) Award Show was fun. Deonna spoiling Mariah's big moment

- Wayne vs Jobber was a solid squash. Adán Copeland from CMLL! What's in the box?

- Jericho vs Titán was solid. Titán impressed. Hook!

- I enjoyed the Infantry heeling it up.

- Mistico vs Angelico was solid.

- Street Fight was solid.

 

[Jaysin]

7 hours ago, Wrestling Machine said:

If a singer is out of tune, can I say so? Or can I just say that I don't like her?

I have nothing against Eddie Kingston, I would just be happy if he was actually good in ring so I would have another good pro wrestler with good promo skills to enjoy.

 

Not really a good comparison. Someone singing out of tune isn't subjective, pro wrestling is. Kingston is celebrated by countless people for his King's Road and Strong Style influenced in ring abilities. It's perfectly fine to dislike him or his style, but saying he's bad is just your opinion. Will Ospreay for example, I think he's incredibly overrated, but I know that's just my opinion and his no selling lack of psychology stuff just doesn't appeal to me, but I'm not going to say he sucks or that he's not good. I do like Will, just wish he'd let spots breathe before immediately doing something else. Sorry for the Ospreay tangent lol

Wrestling is incredibly subjective and not everyone likes the same stuff and that's okay. 

At the end of the day, we're all looking for the same thing, to be entertained and Eddie has entertained me for almost 20 years now. 

[Jaysin]

Anyway, silly argument aside, watching Dynamite and Collision finally, and I really like the EVP's theme. Gives me big Bloodline vibes and I mean that in a positive way. Screams main event talent. Their characters are finally clicking for me. Their mic work is far more believable when they're acting like arrogant dunces. Still hate Rick Knox though. Dude shouldn't be allowed on television. 

[Matt_Black]

The best description I've seen of Eddie Kingston was from a review of the first Forbidden Door PPV, which went something like "Eddie looks, talks, and wrestles like a fan jumped the barricade and security was too afraid to stop him." The review meant that in a complimentary fashion, but I'm sure there are many of Kingston's critics who would also say the same thing.