The All Elite Wrestling Discussion Thread

[bhalbur]

AEW business wise reminds me of mid 90s WWE right now (not matches, just the business side) when the big 80s stars were gone or getting close to retirement and new top guys had to be established. AEW seems to be transitioning from Jericho/Mox/Omega/briefly Punk as the top guys into the next group with Swerve/Ospreay/Perry/etc and are trying to establish the next generation of main eventers. Mox and Kenny (if he gets healthy) will still get main events, but fewer as time goes on and the new guys take a stranglehold on the top of the card. And MJF is still around too. 

If TK can get a wider fanbase behind his new stars AEW will be in good shape.

[Dalton]

AEW simply existing and being a very successful number two wrestling company in the US has broken so many brains. Being the biggest nonsports program every week, this week included, somehow requires thinkpieces and open debates on how to turn around a sinking ship, etc. Maybe when they sign the next TV deal that will stop the dorks from complaining, since making money is the most important thing to fans for some reason? Probably not though.

AEW is far from my favorite wrestling promotion currently, maybe my fourth?, but there is so much wild discourse surrounding every show, more than any promotion maybe ever, that there's an entire grift economy that AEW has created. Countless podcasters, YouTubers and websites get their biggest engagement and thus make the most money when they have an angry Tony Khan thumbnail and negative AEW title. It's hard to separate real criticism from those hopping on for the grift.

[The Blonde Bomber]

22 minutes ago, Dalton said:

AEW simply existing and being a very successful number two wrestling company in the US has broken so many brains. Being the biggest nonsports program every week, this week included, somehow requires thinkpieces and open debates on how to turn around a sinking ship, etc. Maybe when they sign the next TV deal that will stop the dorks from complaining, since making money is the most important thing to fans for some reason? Probably not though.

AEW is far from my favorite wrestling promotion currently, maybe my fourth?, but there is so much wild discourse surrounding every show, more than any promotion maybe ever, that there's an entire grift economy that AEW has created. Countless podcasters, YouTubers and websites get their biggest engagement and thus make the most money when they have an angry Tony Khan thumbnail and negative AEW title. It's hard to separate real criticism from those hopping on for the grift.

Why are you insulting people as “dorks” and being in my view condescending with your remarks towards people on here?

[Dalton]

3 minutes ago, The Blonde Bomber said:

Why are you insulting people as “dorks” and being in my view condescending with your remarks towards people on here?

I'm clearly referring to the dork grifters?

[The Blonde Bomber]

39 minutes ago, Dalton said:

I'm clearly referring to the dork grifters?

Not clearly, seemed like you were referring to other users on here who made critical statements or just questioned things about AEW.

[guyver3]

2 hours ago, Dalton said:

Posts like this are why I love this thread so much. The billionaire wrestling promoter caring more about putting on great wrestling matches than making money is Bad, Actually.

Incredible take. 

Considering the dropping ratings and attendance, possibly even buyrates depending on how their next show does yeah I’d say that’s a bad thing. My apologies that the first and second parts of my post didn’t have giant flags noting the serious and the tongue in cheek sides, but in all seriousness considering the money he’s paying out and the talent he has they should be doing better but they’re not which is Tony’s fault he’s booking for himself not for a wide audience. 

[Wrestling Machine]

9 hours ago, Dalton said:

Being the biggest nonsports program every week, this week included, somehow requires thinkpieces and open debates on how to turn around a sinking ship, etc.

After a useless trial for people's intentions at least you managed to give an answer! In your view, AEW is not facing a critical period despite the numbers, so there is no reversal needed. Cool.

 

 

Now, I'll love to hear the opinions of other users too! 

[Big Roguey]

1 hour ago, Wrestling Machine said:

After a useless trial for people's intentions at least you managed to give an answer! In your view, AEW is not facing a critical period despite the numbers, so there is no reversal needed. Cool.

 

 

Now, I'll love to hear the opinions of other users too! 

I'm going to pull rank a little bit here because this stops here.

You're not entitled to a response and if you want earnest replies, posting like this isn't going to win you any favours. You're right when you say this is a thread about discussing AEW but we're past that point now because it's hypothetical scenarios cooked up to incite snipping back and forth.

It is quite tiresome dipping into this thread every so often and seeing the same points go round in a circular fashion, it's less of a discussion and more of a weekly town hall meeting at this rate. I've said it before in the last 24 hours but if this truly isn't for you then that's fine, there is like 100+ other promotions out there that you can watch and presumably not post after shows demanding a list of changes to suit you and you alone. 

If the sniping continues after this point, we'll go down more of a moderating route.

[Wrestling Machine]

1 hour ago, Big Roguey said:

You're not entitled to a response and if you want earnest replies, posting like this isn't going to win you any favours.

I didn't demand answers, I was legit curious to discuss on it alongside fellow users, something that should be like basilar on a forum. English ain't my first language and I thought writing "I'll love to hear the opinions of other users too!" was a way of inviting peaceful confrontation and does not seem to me in any way to be a demand. It ain't like I'll force someone to post his/her ideas lol

No reason imo to moderate an on-point discussion in the rightful thread but you the Moderator I guess

[Big Roguey]

Discussion about things and criticism is fine but we're drawing the line at baiting people into responding on here. If that's how things work elsewhere then fine but a hard no to any posts calling for responses. Ideally it would be discussion about things that are actually happening in AEW instead of five pages back and forth about a talking point raised by an unaffiliated podcast etc.

This part is me taking the mod hat off now. Things like what TV deal might or might not be coming is an incredibly tiresome talking point that really doesn't have any outcome on the actual product and it's always so weird when it's brought up as a major deal breaking thing. TNA never had this level of in depth scrutiny about what TV deal that they'd get even in the POP TV days or whatever that network was called. A lot of the way the posts about AEW come off (to me) is that people feel obligated to them in one way or another so everything is always magnified be it positive or negative. A subpar Raw can come and go but a subpar Dynamite just leads to days and days of Discourse.

[The Blonde Bomber]

8 hours ago, Big Roguey said:

Discussion about things and criticism is fine but we're drawing the line at baiting people into responding on here. If that's how things work elsewhere then fine but a hard no to any posts calling for responses. Ideally it would be discussion about things that are actually happening in AEW instead of five pages back and forth about a talking point raised by an unaffiliated podcast etc.

This part is me taking the mod hat off now. Things like what TV deal might or might not be coming is an incredibly tiresome talking point that really doesn't have any outcome on the actual product and it's always so weird when it's brought up as a major deal breaking thing. TNA never had this level of in depth scrutiny about what TV deal that they'd get even in the POP TV days or whatever that network was called. A lot of the way the posts about AEW come off (to me) is that people feel obligated to them in one way or another so everything is always magnified be it positive or negative. A subpar Raw can come and go but a subpar Dynamite just leads to days and days of Discourse.

People criticize WWE constantly, the discussion thread here is a good example of that. For some reason when criticism of AEW comes up then it gets completely invalidated as “too much” or “if you don’t like it don’t watch it”. People should be allowed to criticize or ask about what others think would be helpful for improving a promotion without being shouted down or insulted. Just have a discussion and let people give their opinions.

Edited May 21 by The Blonde Bomber

[John Lions]

It's so disingenuous to act like every single person who criticizes AEW is invalidated. There's plenty of valid criticism about AEW that can be made, and that people DO make, in this thread. 

I also think that AEW fans are more defensive than any other wrestling fan. Unlike pretty much every major promotion, many of the AEW fans have been fans for the ENTIRE lifespan of the company. Given the niche that AEW appeals to, it's also not surprising that the very vocal and online AEW fans watch and keep up with everything going on from what's on screen to the stuff happening backstage.

There is very clearly a negative-AEW spin through social media, whether they have valid criticism or not. What ends up happening is you get people repeating talking points that get stated over and over, many that are not true, and so when that stuff gets brought up AEW fans can get very defensive. Why wouldn't they get defensive, when you see actual human beings repeating talking points that you've seen on social media that people are spreading around that you KNOW is just complete -------?

At the end of the day, this is an AEW discussion thread. I would rather have a discussion with people who actually watch the product over what AEW could do better on, than people who don't watch the product repeating talking points they hear from other places.

 

Since we're on the topic of what we think AEW can do better, this is my personal takes on it:

Collision, ticket sales, etc - Personally I don't think AEW is big enough to support two live TV shows/week. Rampage and Collision both showed that there is a core AEW audience that will tune into everything. I don't think this translates to live shows, and, anecdotally, you can see the ticket sales suffering. I am not a business expert nor do I have a doctorate in Nielson ratings, so I don't really have an alternative. I'm sure Collision makes more money than no Collision, but I've felt a bit of burnout as a viewer, and AEW is running out of new markets when you run 2x the TV shows and 2x the PPVs. The Collision in Vancouver was incredible, for example, because it was a relatively fresh market. I think the "Summer Series" in Texas is a step in the right direction for that, and I'm curious to see what the reception is. I think it's a pretty commonly spoken issue that AEW's local marketing is pretty bad, and I can agree from the local shows that have been in my areas.

Pivoting storylines - AEW is typically pretty good about taking a hot hand and running with it, but pivoting from storylines has always been a weak point to me from watching. The Devil storyline had a ton of potential, but injuries played a significant factor and it limped across the finish line regardless. Going back further, the HoB/Death Triangle feud which led to Julia Hart joining the trio went on for SO SO long because of Fenix's injury, and both groups just kind of floated along for months and Julia moped around with an eyepatch for way too long. Jericho has had very rightful criticism over his last year of stories, but 3 different instances since All In last year has he had a story he was involved in get derailed, yet nothing changed about his presence on screen (Sammy concussion after All In, Omega diverticulitis, Sammy suspension after the Hardy match). The Outcasts vs Originals storyline suffered a similar fate, which sucks because that felt like the first "big" storyline the women's division has ever had. Injuries are an eventuality in wrestling, whether it's AEW or WWE or wherever, and I think AEW can definitely improve on how it handles curveballs.

Women's division - First I'll say there has been a very marked improvement in the women's division year on year. This is the first time we've had a storyline between two women unrelated to any title (Rosa and Deonna) in what seems like since Deeb and Shida tore the house down years ago. I started watching ROH recently, and the biggest take away from that show is how much more time the women get (# of matches, time in matches, quality of matches). AEW having this stupid 1 women's match/show restriction is shit. The male side has way more drawing potential, so I get it from a business perspective, but the women can never get a bigger share of the pie if they aren't given the time and investment. This year has been a good start, but I'd like to see it reflected in the ring.

I think this is my biggest one, and it's been even more apparent recently - There is no "midcard", and TV booking feels too formulaic. This has been way more apparent since the expansion of the PPV schedule, as before you would see more meaningful feuds and matches beginning and ending on TV when PPVs were often months apart. I used to watch Dark a ton back in the day, where I would see all the guys who have a TV match that week beat a local competitor or someone lower on the card than them. That tradition has carried over into Rampage and Collision. AEW has this ultra massive crop of guys they want to push and protect, which means they almost never face off against each other. Instead, they beat up the Brian Cages and Jay Lethals, who in turn get a tune up match against a local competitor or a ROH stalwart to make them feel like a threat, even though everyone watching knows they aren't. Every singles title is held by a "top guy", and there isn't really anything for a Brian Cage/Jay Lethal level guy to really fight over. Brian Cage beats Willie Mack, and Swerve beats Brian Cage (this is an example, I know this isn't exactly how it played out). The midcard guys should be fighting each other and getting actual meaningful wins, so there is at least SOME momentum for when they face off against a top guy on a TV show. It's never going to be an easy solution - on paper, Swerve vs Brian Cage in an eliminator match might be more appealing to a fan than Brian Cage having a back and forth match with Jay Lethal, but putting in the time to invest in the midcard will make that Swerve vs Brian Cage match that much better and more interesting. Like I said, this feels like it's become more of an issue with Collision + the shorter PPV schedule, but I would like to see more meaningful midcard matches and feuds. It's honestly why I've enjoyed Rampage more than Collision most of the time, because there are usually some meaningful midcard matches or storylines mixed in to the show.

I do not think people disappearing from TV is an AEW issue. If you look at all the times historically when guys who were involved in storylines or pushes disappear for weeks, it's typically due to an undisclosed injury, personal issue, or a professional issue between the worker and AEW. I also think dream matches and international wrestlers from all across the wrestling world fighting in AEW is a big appeal to AEW's core audience, and isn't a deterrent to casual fans - why would seeing a cool new wrestler as a wrestling fan be a bad thing?

[Wrestling Machine]

5 hours ago, John Lions said:

Since we're on the topic of what we think AEW can do better, this is my personal takes on it:

Appreciate it 🤝

[Self]

Less heat. More joy. 

Granted, I get most of my news on AEW goings on from the Jim Cornette podcast, but it sounds like the babyfaces in AEW spend a lot of time on their backs getting stomped on. It seems like the philosophy is that heels are cool bad asses who kick ass, and babyfaces exist for sympathy. I don't think that works these days. That's an nWo philosophy, and I don't think it really worked then either. Not long term. Babyfaces should be the cool bad asses who kick ass. 

If I was running the show, Swerve Strickland would go back to doing exactly what he did when he got over (breaking into houses while Nana dances... I think. I didn't see any of it) but against a heel instead of a babyface. No beatdowns on him. No attempts at gaining sympathy. He's not an underdog. He's Steve Austin. Untouchable, uncontrollable, and unleashing his particular brand of lunacy against whoever the fans (coincidentally) don't like. Let the fans live vicariously through that.  Give them a workrate, modern John Cena. 

I'd prefer fewer beatdowns in wrestling in general. All they do is take the wind out of the fan's sails. There are never any repercussions, it's rarely a big turning point in a story, so there is no heat. Just makes the babyfaces look worse. 

[John Lions]

5 hours ago, Self said:

If I was running the show, Swerve Strickland would go back to doing exactly what he did when he got over (breaking into houses while Nana dances... I think. I didn't see any of it) but against a heel instead of a babyface. No beatdowns on him. No attempts at gaining sympathy. He's not an underdog. He's Steve Austin. Untouchable, uncontrollable, and unleashing his particular brand of lunacy against whoever the fans (coincidentally) don't like. Let the fans live vicariously through that.  Give them a workrate, modern John Cena.

I've been pretty cold on Swerve lately for similar reasons, but he did exactly that on Collision a couple of weeks ago. It was against the former Embassy that betrayed him, and not the faction he is feuding with... But it was a step in the right direction IMO. I'll withhold judging his title run until I see the conclusion of his first PPV feud at least. He's been involved in two related but different stories post Dynasty (the former Mogul Embassy and Christian's Patriarchy) and I really hope we see the Swerve that took out all 3 of his former goons going forward and not the Swerve who still gets rattled by fans cheering him during his promos and has been laying on his back getting torn apart by Christian on the mic.

[hailthebulldog]

The sins of Swerve's past are coming back to bite him. Swerve used his Goons to take out his enemies in the past, and now that they think he's gone soft, they turned on him. Swerve fended with Nick Wayne, doing vile things to him and his mentor. Now, Wayne and his new mentor are extracting revenge on Swerve. This is leading to Swerve's biggest sin, the Hangman situation, coming back and confronting him. Swerve is battling his demons, one at a time.

[eayragt]

AEW need to try and run more decent matches.

Wait, before that hate mob come in, I know they run great matches. But a decent 10 minute match works wonders. I think what John says plays into this - have a couple of midcarders face one another, decent match. If it works well there's a longer match in the future for them. Yes, 25 minutes dream matches are great, but they're not what you want week in week out. My favourite WWE show was always Velocity, and I want to see more of those matches.

Why should AEW change? Well, they don't have to. They've got a backer, they run great matches. Are they happy with that? Good for them. But WWE were just as happy putting on 3 hour snorefests on RAW and bringing in the cash. They've changed for the better, and I'm sure AEW can, to.

They also need to catch a break with injuries, but maybe if they were in just decent matches a little more that would help.

[John Lions]

I think it really hurts that all of the male singles titles are, in TEW terms "floating" and are all held by people who are all in that protected group of "top guys" (Roddy is the only one you could argue against that, but I don't think he's champion in a week).

AEW presents itself more sports like than WWE and the storylines tend to revolve around titles rather than vice versa. When the champions are Swerve Strickland (last time being pinned was by Moxley in the C2), Adam Copeland (only has been pinned in singles matches by Christian and always dirty), Kazuchika Okada (only been pinned in AEW by Danielson at FD2), and Roderick Strong (I believe he's only lost in singles matches to Samoa Joe?). With title contenders that have good odds of new champs being Malakai who's last singles loss was to Cody Rhodes and Ospreay who has yet to lose...

What the hell is there to fight for as a midcarder? The downside to guys like Orange Cassidy and Christian elevating their titles made it so there's no "midcard" titles.

I would like to see the International title get merged with the World title at some point (the Continental title does the same thing but with rules + prestige attached to the C2) and the TNT title to move down the card. I'm worried the same thing will happen on the women's side with Mercedes getting involved in the TBS title scene, but I'm not going to complain about something that hasn't happened yet until I see how it all shakes out.

[ColdBloodedSausageMaker]

Ricky Starks recently did an interview discussing his lack of bookings on AEW Television. Rumors persist that Ricky's contract is expiring soon, which he didn't confirm or deny. 

If Ricky is one foot out the door (as many speculate given his connection to Cody), I understand Tony Khan cooling Starks off. 

Tony obviously doesn't want to waste TV Time on talent that might be headed to WWE soon (like Jade Cargill headed to WWE and became a top WWE Talent).

That being said, Ricky Starks is electric and I miss seeing the guy on TV. 

Edited May 23 by ColdBloodedSausageMaker

[ColdBloodedSausageMaker]

The Darby Allin with a flamethrower angle didn't work for me on a number of levels. 

I get why Tony did it -- the goal was for the clip to go viral and get eyes on the promotion. But for me, it's more trying to pop a rating by costing long-term storylines.

In kayfabe, what's stopping a wrestler from just bringing a weapon into the building? At least it makes sense for a wrestler to open carry a gun -- how many people own flamethrowers?

If security can't stop wrestlers from bringing in flamethrowers, how in kayfabe can they prevent a wrestler from bringing in a pistol? A flamethrower is way less easy to conceal -- not like Darby tried.

Security clearly can't stop someone from just driving up to the arena and walking in. Darby was able to waltz right past security despite being explicitly banned from the building. 

If the Elite can't even hinder Darby Allin from entering the building, why can't the referees or other staff defy them to run in and save Danielson? Clearly, the Elite aren't actually running the show.

Tony Khan just isn't ready for TV, and the last thing I want to see on AEW TV is more Tony Khan as a major character. If nothing else, Tony Khan orchestrating the run-in keeps Darby from getting over. 

I'm looking forward to Double or Nothing.

Dynamite ended on a sour note this week.

Edited May 23 by ColdBloodedSausageMaker

[Wrestling Machine]

@ColdBloodedSausageMaker either Darby with a flamethrower, Drew when he had that sword, and others in the past. Like you said it makes zero sense kayfabe-wise, it’s hokey and makes wrestling look like a joke.

[milamber]

On 5/21/2024 at 3:03 AM, guyver3 said:

I think the thing is TK doesn’t care about being a successful business he only cares about having great wrestling matches which to him is success. After their next ppv I’m sure he’s going to say they’ve been having great shows and great matches, plus the cagematch ratings say they’re doing great so everything is great. 

Focusing on quality wrestling and focusing on being a cash cow are both valid approaches with their own drawcards and pitfalls. AEW doesn't have shareholders so TK only needs to make his initial investment back after expenses with enough left in the bank to for new signings. The next TV/streaming deal should take care of that.

Edit: The Fight Forever game was the biggest misstep as it didn't sell well enough. I wonder if they will ditch the single game/ongoing updates approach and produce a proper polished sequel when there's enough profit to spare. Or they could release more free updates ala No Man's Sky to attract more sales.

Edited May 25 by milamber

[milamber]

I enjoyed Dynamite. I loved all the crazy stuff like the downpour of blood, TK driving Darby to work, the flamethrower, Nana in the car etc. Felt like a proper exciting go-home show. Satnam Singh main eventing and Malaki in a TV singles match were not on my bingo card for early 2024, so the card itself was crazy lol.

Still think Darby should be rested with his recent injury & accident and Garcia should be in that spot, though.

[milamber]

[CQI13]

MJF is back. Let’s see what they follow it up with.