Public Beta Reaction Thread

[Powerful_Fox]

<p>Idea for a show.</p><p> </p><p>

Alan partridge asks mr. Kennedy on the pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre. It must not, I repeat must not turn into an all night rave.</p>

[FWPD]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="infinitywpi" data-cite="infinitywpi" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Okay, I've been thinking about the whole Product thing for a while now, and I think I've managed to articulate my feelings on it. So here goes.<p> </p><p> This is a sandbox, so you should be able to set your company's product however you like. However, it is also a simulation, so setting your product to be Sexy Naked Barbed-Wire Deathmatches should result in a quick descent into bankruptcy and game over.</p><p> </p><p> Or in other words: Not all products are going to be viable because there's no (or not a big enough) audience for them. Audiences want certain things, and doing things like "It's WWE but with the comedy slider moved down" isn't going to really distinguish them much -- it's still Sports Entertainment. The pre-made products cover everything viable, and some that -might- be viable, given the audience of the world. Anything else won't work. </p><p> </p><p> So as much as a Hyper-Realistic Lucha Comedy company sounds interesting, in practice it's such an unworkable product that it just doesn't exist. And if it was allowed to exist, we'd have countless threads of "Why doesn't my product get anyone coming to events/watching shows/go bankrupt so fast?"</p><p> </p><p> Sometimes, sandboxes need limits.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> There are new products and ideas all the time in the world that catch fire. If you want to make an innovative new product and see if it works, you should be able to. The marketplace is constantly innovating new products and some hit.</p>

[tormyb]

Idea for a show.

 

Alan partridge asks mr. Kennedy on the pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre. It must not, I repeat must not turn into an all night rave.

 

 

I, Partridge: We Need to Talk About Alan...Alan

 

Presumably this is all helpful stuff GDS? Plenty more recommendations where these come from.

[Forgotmyusername]

Visual Basic. VB6, I believe.

 

Ultimately, this seems to be where most of the issues come from. I have been able to get some more playtime in the demo (or beta, as its now being called) these last few days. Looking at this thread, a significant chunk of problems I have or others have get labelled as "limitations". When I read this game was being rebuilt from scratch, I assumed we were getting in line with modern times- That TEW2020 was being built from scratch as we were going to use a program that was created in the 21st century. We were building it from scratch to get rid of 1991 programming so we could, at the very least, have the game be able to use full screen.

 

Finding out this is still being built on the 1990s program, the same one that EWR was using, was mind blowing for me. It seems odd, counter intuitive even, to go through the trouble of rebuilding something while still using the same program that gives you all these limitations in the first place. Would've made more sense to save the rebuild for a newer program.

 

For all the great things this game does (talk to worker, new attributes and Daniel bryan yes movement recreation being my favorites), it takes big steps back in the worst ways possible. TEW16 made such significant strides in quality of life and ease of accessibility. TEW20, there is no other way to say it, seems to be at war with its predecessors optimization. Some examples:

 

- I would hope we all understand how awful the UI is. Downplaying it as a vocal minority makes me question that though. So I do feel the need to mention it here.

- Arrow keys/scroll bar. I hear its being updated. We will see. I hope so.

- Booking changes being so cumbersome. How did this happen? Why is it so hard to move things.

- Quick view worker on the booking screen is gone. Why?

- Navigating worker contracts. If a common question in a fanbase that has been playing these games for 5-20 years is "how do I fire someone?", something is verh wrong.

- Less severe, but not giving the option to have letter grades and then also making it so yellow of all colors is the top stat. Yellow?? Nowhere on the planet is yellow going to be a universal color for a higher end grade

 

Less clicks and more optimization should always be a priority in these games. But for whatever reason, intended or not, we seem to be going in the opposite direction. For me, right now with the demo/beta, the pros do not outweigh the cons.

 

I love EWR and TEW. I think adam is brilliant to make these games, not to mention during his free time. Thats also why part of me feels bad having criticism- knowing this isnt Adams day job. That he does this on the side. That, despite it being very weird for a developer to not move on past 1991 programming.. for all I know he isnt a developer as much as he is someone who enjoys ****ing around with VB. For all I know, his day job is completely unrelated to all of this. He could sell puppies, work for a firearm manufacturer, be a manager at a ma and pa, etc. However, at the end of the day there is still a price tag of 35$ on the game, which justifies voicing my opinion, even if it comes off a little harsh

[JaySticLe of YouTube]

Ultimately, this seems to be where most of the issues come from. I have been able to get some more playtime in the demo (or beta, as its now being called) these last few days. Looking at this thread, a significant chunk of problems I have or others have get labelled as "limitations". When I read this game was being rebuilt from scratch, I assumed we were getting in line with modern times- That TEW2020 was being built from scratch as we were going to use a program that was created in the 21st century. We were building it from scratch to get rid of 1991 programming so we could, at the very least, have the game be able to use full screen.

 

Finding out this is still being built on the 1990s program, the same one that EWR was using, was mind blowing for me. It seems odd, counter intuitive even, to go through the trouble of rebuilding something while still using the same program that gives you all these limitations in the first place. Would've made more sense to save the rebuild for a newer program.

 

For all the great things this game does (talk to worker, new attributes and Daniel bryan yes movement recreation being my favorites), it takes big steps back in the worst ways possible. TEW16 made such significant strides in quality of life and ease of accessibility. TEW20, there is no other way to say it, seems to be at war with its predecessors optimization. Some examples:

 

- I would hope we all understand how awful the UI is. Downplaying it as a vocal minority makes me question that though. So I do feel the need to mention it here.

- Arrow keys/scroll bar. I hear its being updated. We will see. I hope so.

- Booking changes being so cumbersome. How did this happen? Why is it so hard to move things.

- Quick view worker on the booking screen is gone. Why?

- Navigating worker contracts. If a common question in a fanbase that has been playing these games for 5-20 years is "how do I fire someone?", something is verh wrong.

- Less severe, but not giving the option to have letter grades and then also making it so yellow of all colors is the top stat. Yellow?? Nowhere on the planet is yellow going to be a universal color for a higher end grade

 

Less clicks and more optimization should always be a priority in these games. But for whatever reason, intended or not, we seem to be going in the opposite direction. For me, right now with the demo/beta, the pros do not outweigh the cons.

 

I love EWR and TEW. I think adam is brilliant to make these games, not to mention during his free time. Thats also why part of me feels bad having criticism- knowing this isnt Adams day job. That he does this on the side. That, despite it being very weird for a developer to not move on past 1991 programming.. for all I know he isnt a developer as much as he is someone who enjoys ****ing around with VB. For all I know, his day job is completely unrelated to all of this. He could sell puppies, work for a firearm manufacturer, be a manager at a ma and pa, etc. However, at the end of the day there is still a price tag of 35$ on the game, which justifies voicing my opinion, even if it comes off a little harsh

 

These are some pretty wild assumptions.

 

I think we've once again lost the plot.

[awesomenessofme1]

demo (or beta, as its now being called)

It was always called a beta. I've seen this framing in several places, and it seems to be implying that things were presented as if there wouldn't be any major issues. As far as I saw, it was always clearly presented as a beta to test out and find major issues. It was described as a demo a few times, but never solely as a demo.

I would hope we all understand how awful the UI is. Downplaying it as a vocal minority makes me question that though. So I do feel the need to mention it here.

Not everyone agrees the UI is "awful". I think it's quite flawed, but I personally wouldn't go that far. And the "vocal minority" comment was referring to people who want a complete UI overhaul, which is obviously unfeasible at this late of a stage. Not just anyone who didn't like it.

- Less severe, but not giving the option to have letter grades and then also making it so yellow of all colors is the top stat. Yellow?? Nowhere on the planet is yellow going to be a universal color for a higher end grade

I don't care about grades, but I agree so much with the color comment. Out of all my petty issues, that's one of the most annoying.

for all I know he isnt a developer as much as he is someone who enjoys ****ing around with VB. For all I know, his day job is completely unrelated to all of this. He could sell puppies, work for a firearm manufacturer, be a manager at a ma and pa, etc. However, at the end of the day there is still a price tag of 35$ on the game, which justifies voicing my opinion, even if it comes off a little harsh

And yeah, this part is... just weird. I think you're reading too far into it.

[Charvalos]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Forgotmyusername" data-cite="Forgotmyusername" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47578" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Ultimately, this seems to be where most of the issues come from. I have been able to get some more playtime in the demo (or beta, as its now being called) these last few days. Looking at this thread, a significant chunk of problems I have or others have get labelled as "limitations". When I read this game was being rebuilt from scratch, I assumed we were getting in line with modern times- That TEW2020 was being built from scratch as we were going to use a program that was created in the 21st century. We were building it from scratch to get rid of 1991 programming so we could, at the very least, have the game be able to use full screen. <p> </p><p> Finding out this is still being built on the 1990s program, the same one that EWR was using, was mind blowing for me. It seems odd, counter intuitive even, to go through the trouble of rebuilding something while still using the same program that gives you all these limitations in the first place. Would've made more sense to save the rebuild for a newer program.</p><p> </p><p> For all the great things this game does (talk to worker, new attributes and Daniel bryan yes movement recreation being my favorites), it takes big steps back in the worst ways possible. TEW16 made such significant strides in quality of life and ease of accessibility. TEW20, there is no other way to say it, seems to be at war with its predecessors optimization. Some examples:</p><p> </p><p> - I would hope we all understand how awful the UI is. Downplaying it as a vocal minority makes me question that though. So I do feel the need to mention it here.</p><p> - Arrow keys/scroll bar. I hear its being updated. We will see. I hope so.</p><p> - Booking changes being so cumbersome. How did this happen? Why is it so hard to move things.</p><p> - Quick view worker on the booking screen is gone. Why?</p><p> - Navigating worker contracts. If a common question in a fanbase that has been playing these games for 5-20 years is "how do I fire someone?", something is verh wrong.</p><p> - Less severe, but not giving the option to have letter grades and then also making it so yellow of all colors is the top stat. Yellow?? Nowhere on the planet is yellow going to be a universal color for a higher end grade</p><p> </p><p> Less clicks and more optimization should always be a priority in these games. But for whatever reason, intended or not, we seem to be going in the opposite direction. For me, right now with the demo/beta, the pros do not outweigh the cons. </p><p> </p><p> I love EWR and TEW. I think adam is brilliant to make these games, not to mention during his free time. Thats also why part of me feels bad having criticism- knowing this isnt Adams day job. That he does this on the side. That, despite it being very weird for a developer to not move on past 1991 programming.. for all I know he isnt a developer as much as he is someone who enjoys ****ing around with VB. For all I know, his day job is completely unrelated to all of this. He could sell puppies, work for a firearm manufacturer, be a manager at a ma and pa, etc. However, at the end of the day there is still a price tag of 35$ on the game, which justifies voicing my opinion, even if it comes off a little harsh</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I couldn't agree more. I don't understand the point to rebuilt a game from scratch if it comes to use the same tools which are very limited.</p>

[TeemuFoundation]

It was stated in the journal that certain features would not have been possible had the game been built on top of 2016. So there was a reason.

[nerodragomir1]

It was always called a beta. I've seen this framing in several places, and it seems to be implying that things were presented as if there wouldn't be any major issues. As far as I saw, it was always clearly presented as a beta to test out and find major issues. It was described as a demo a few times, but never solely as a demo.

 

Good sir, I must say this. Not trying to be argumentative about shallow terminology but, the game was for sure being presented as a demo. Some "try before you buy" kind of stuff. Sure, we can call it whatever we like. A demo, beta, test run, trail, demonstration, exhibit, showing, example, viewing, pre-launch whatever you like. I will still say the game wouldn't have changed that drastic in a week. It was a demo with the intention of finding any crashes in that week span of time. He still really hasn't said anything of what will really be changing, if any. So it's still like a demo. Just needed to push the release date back because so many issues were found in the demo that it had to be pushed back 2 or 3 weeks. It's been changed to an actual beta now that things were clear it needed some more work.

 

Then again, this is all verbiage at the end of the day. If it was a demo that was 100% planning on releasing without a search refinement option on the screen where you book angles.

I must one again ask for your support of helping me understand how that happens!?!

[TeemuFoundation]

Oh, the one week trial period has always been "public beta". For every TEW.

[Powerful_Fox]

 

I, Partridge: We Need to Talk About Alan...Alan

 

Presumably this is all helpful stuff GDS? Plenty more recommendations where these come from.

 

 

Hes named his main event wrestler "stable"? Micheal, you're befriending a man who uses a collective term for a singular worker!

[nerodragomir1]

Oh, the one week trial period has always been "public beta". For every TEW.

 

Like I get the idea of it, but what can really be done in a week? beta is such a weird term for a game that is being demo'ed out to people so they can test it, see if they like it & maybe come across some minor bugs in that seven day period.

 

Then when people want to voice changes, people say any real change is unlikely because the game is basically unchangeable. A beta says to me that "reasonable" changes can be made. Demo say's to me, game's pretty much done. Can't change anything except maybe some easily changeable internal values.

 

Ya know what I mean? Or Do I sound like a mad lad?

[SilkySlimer]

Like I get the idea of it, but what can really be done in a week? beta is such a weird term for a game that is being demo'ed out to people so they can test it, see if they like it & maybe come across some minor bugs in that seven day period.

 

That's exactly what a beta is for though, to test and log glitches, bugs etc. Demo is a preview of a finished game. Which TEW2020 isn't, yet.

[nerodragomir1]

I must be crazy here. I must be! If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, it must be a goose!

Again, this is all just the same stuff at the end of the day. It is most definitely a beta now. No way to argue that. I will say that for sure.

[jgriff3029]

From Adam himself from the Development Journal:

 

#49: A few last minute changes

 

As we reach the last few days before the public demo is released, there's a few last minute changes to go over.

[awesomenessofme1]

From Adam himself from the Development Journal:

 

#49: A few last minute changes

 

As we reach the last few days before the public demo is released, there's a few last minute changes to go over.

 

Once. After repeatedly referring to it as a beta. And after every TEW ever that I'm aware of was referred to as a beta before release.

[Makhai]

Once. After repeatedly referring to it as a beta. And after every TEW ever that I'm aware of was referred to as a beta before release.

 

This is a dumb semantical argument but it's an early demo. A full beta would give you a much larger cross-section of the game so we could catch longer term bugs with only two months we can't really extrapolate how the development system will function, contract bugs, if the game generates enough newgens to keep it fresh, we can't get any of that. If it was a beta we'd have gotten a full build with a drop-dead date. This is just a demo while we all wait for bug testing and the like to be done behind the scenes.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's fine, and this whole conversation is weird and pointless. But here we are.

[nerodragomir1]

Demo, Beta. Tomato, Tomato. untalented hack, Vince Russo. These words all have the same meaning in the end.

It's not a huge deal either way. I just enjoy the banter TBH.

[Bull]

I'm probably not one to talk all things considered but is the difference between "Beta" and "Demo" really pertinent here?

 

It's a testing phase regardless of the title assigned to it. This one has certainly not went as well as previous ones, which means there's much more things to iron out, but Beta or Demo isn't one of them lol..

[djthefunkchris]

...stuff...

I tend to write just as much if not more in my posts, and in case mine got big I didn't want it taking up double the space between us, but quoted you for reference of what I'm talking about.

 

People already explained, but the deal has always been release a Beta version, fix as much as possible, release retail version and that is when the Beta version essentially becomes the Demo version. Many of us, from Developers, forum leaders, and players will use the term interchangeably because of it well... being essentially the same program for both.

 

The last lines, although I know where your coming from, come off much more harsh than I think you meant them to be. When you do that it takes away from the validity of points made earlier, because the last paragraph borders on personal attack. It makes the reader automatically feel the need to back the attacked, rendering points made mute. It almost sounded jealous for some reason.... "How can someone use such an ancient program with such limitations and have such a following!"-which I know wasn't intended.

 

Hopefully you can take criticism as well as you dish it out, because I think your points (about the game) were all valid.

[Makhai]

I'm probably not one to talk all things considered but is the difference between "Beta" and "Demo" really pertinent here?

 

It's a testing phase regardless of the title assigned to it. This one has certainly not went as well as previous ones, which means there's much more things to iron out, but Beta or Demo isn't one of them lol..

 

Blame it on companies that commercialize these things. "Here's our $30 key to our exclusive early access beta test." That are just scams really to squeeze extra juice out of people. It's become a contentious term inside the industry.

[consortium11]

I must be crazy here. I must be! If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, it must be a goose!

 

No, I'm with you. A "beta" which opens a week before the official release is a beta in name only if we want the term to have any actual meaning. A week before release a product should be a release candidate ("going silver" in the terminology) and should basically be fit for a full release with only minor changes to be made and somewhat obscure bugs to squash. Somewhere along the way it seems marketing departments worked out that if they called something a "beta" they could lower expectations and explain away issues while if it was called a "demo" people expected it to be of a higher quality and thus in recent years we've seen lots of examples of games having a "public beta" shortly before release... Football Manager is the one I'm most familiar with.

 

Of course in reality the distinction is pointless other than how it manages people's expectations. Whether you call it a "beta" or a "demo" doesn't impact on the game itself at all and these days products constantly get updates anyway (the last TEW 2016 patch for example came out in September 2019) so it's not as if a product is really ever truly "locked in" until it ends its entire cycle. And considering today's game world it's actually to Adam's credit that he releases a free demo at all (whatever it's called) and that he releases it a week early; to go back to the Football Manager example above, to access their "beta" you had to preorder the game and thus had to spend your money on it.

 

But to his credit or not, let's still not pretend that something put out a week before the official release is a "beta" in any meaningful way. Especially with an imposed two month limit which means if there are any issues with ongoing, longer term events (regens and new workers for example) that this "beta" can't catch them.

 

Once. After repeatedly referring to it as a beta. And after every TEW ever that I'm aware of was referred to as a beta before release.

 

The fact that demo/beta is (and has been for so many previous releases) used interchangeably is as strong an argument as any that it isn't a real beta. A true beta and a demo aren't interchangeable.

[Irishwhiskey119]

What an incredibly unimportant thing to debate about.

[nerodragomir1]

I'm probably not one to talk all things considered but is the difference between "Beta" and "Demo" really pertinent here?

 

It's a testing phase regardless of the title assigned to it. This one has certainly not went as well as previous ones, which means there's much more things to iron out, but Beta or Demo isn't one of them lol..

 

I agree with you. This is more of me just being bored at work & wanting some silly banter. I can't comment on if this has been a rough release compared to the others though. I feel like it has it's ups & downs for sure though.

 

Blame it on companies that commercialize these things. "Here's our $30 key to our exclusive early access beta test." That are just scams really to squeeze extra juice out of people. It's become a contentious term inside the industry.

 

To Adam's credit, I don't know if it's limitation of the way TEW games are released or if it's Adam's own decision. He doesn't do stuff like that.

[TOTKingNothing]

What an incredibly unimportant thing to debate about.

 

For real.