RW Forced Chemistry Discussion

[ampulator]

Thank you for pointing that. There's no chance in hell Randy Orton vs John Cena have good chemistry. Their matches against each other are borefests. It's almost the same match everytime. And not the same GOOD match. Just the same boring match.

[Jaysin]

As opponents?

Dean Malenko vs Ultimo Dragon- Sure, these two could have a good match with anyone but anytime these two set foot in a ring together it was amazing.

 

Jericho vs Mysterio- Even in Rey's current "WWE sucktitude" mode, him and Jericho have great matches.

 

I had thought of more while reading through the thread, but I can't seem to remember them at the moment

[Vladamire Dracos]

I disagree on that, Steiner may have sucked to alot of smart fans but he was more over solo then his years with Rick. Suck in ring or not (I think that's subjective also as there are a bunch matches from WCW I enjoyed of his) he saw more success as a singles star. I'm not sure there are too many teams I would consider, DerekB raised a good point with the Hardy Boyz though imo.

 

Popularity doesn't matter for TEW Chemistry, just quality of ring work. Rick and Scott, as a team, put on better matches than they ever did alone or with other teammates. They exceeded the sum of their parts, so to say.

[Genadi]

Popularity doesn't matter for TEW Chemistry, just quality of ring work. Rick and Scott, as a team, put on better matches than they ever did alone or with other teammates. They exceeded the sum of their parts, so to say.

 

I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying they should or shouldn't have team chemistry. I said I didn't think Scott Steiner sucked alone, again it's all subjective.

[Moe Hunter]

You must have missed the hour long HBK vs Cena match on RAW? I might have forgotten the WM match. If it was bad than obviously they dont have good chemistry. I just think back to that 1 hour RAW match and it was one of the few times they just let Cena wrestle and he looked good.

 

Cena/Maria was meant more so as a joke as Cena is always messing around with her.

 

I remember the Raw match that they did to apologise for stinking up Mania. It was a good match, sure. But it doesn't constitute good chemistry, especially when you take into account their other matches.

 

Slightly on the same note, did anyone else think that HBK vs HHH vs Cena match recently was just sloppy as hell? Especially toward the end.

[Guest itsbigt]

I am not sure this belongs in this thread, but what about guys like the dudleys who are great tag team, but are terrible single wrestlers.

 

Or what about single wrestlers like Billy Gunn, who never was that good as a single wrestler but was good as a tag wrestler.

 

I guess my question is will chemistry but a one on one setting, wrestler A & B have good chemistry like the dudleys. Or will there be an option for wrestler A has a sightly above average chance of producing good chemistry with tag partners like Billy Gunn

[James Casey]

However, they did it back then, when there wasn't alot of chance's for rehersals and such. They did it "winging" it, over and over throughout the whole country.

 

Re: Flair and Steamboat - They had ample opportunity to practise their matches, not least because they'd had a very good feud a few years before in the Mid-Atlantic territory. If memory serves, Flair says in his book that Steamboat was chosen as his opponent in the feud precisely because Flair felt so comfortable working with him.

[alden]

ok here is a question for the flair vs steamboat feud..........was it any better then the flair vs rhodes feud? or the flair vs magnam feud or the flair vs race feud or the flair vs funk feud or the.......you get my point......i think you could have put anyone in the ring with flair and it would have been gold. Steamboat was just the guy picked because he had some talent.......i don't think there matches were any better then any feud flair had at the time.

[djthefunkchris]

Re: Flair and Steamboat - They had ample opportunity to practise their matches, not least because they'd had a very good feud a few years before in the Mid-Atlantic territory. If memory serves, Flair says in his book that Steamboat was chosen as his opponent in the feud precisely because Flair felt so comfortable working with him.

 

I believe they had over 100's of match's, all together. I can't remember off the top of my head what Flair said during the Hall of Fame speach, but it was a huge number.

 

I'm talking from day one though. I don't think I've ever seen a bad match between them, although there is no way I can even come close to saying I seen all thier match's.

[Tempest Kane]

When i think of this addition i just think of Russo sat in the creative meeting at TNA saying "Yeah of course thats it! Abyss has wonderful chemistry with Matt Morgan, that will make an awesome fued, book it!!!"

 

Basicaly speaking... it was one of the worst fueds for both of them, but since chemistry is 100% subjective to opinion im sure their are actualy people who will put that into a mod as a great chemistry...

 

Frankly i think we need some kind of commitee setup of the most expiranced players to decide who gets chemistry and who dosnt on some of these mods that are going to come out, coz its just going to be freaking dier, this right here is a can of worms of problems i just dont think anyone needed.

 

The thing about chemistry is its supposed to be a magical thing, its supposed to show up were you dont expect it, it feels like it should be intended to be random at all times and used sparingly, and the truth is i think almost every mod for 2010 will have default chemistrys for just about everyone in the database's as people will feel the need to add them, and then what are you left with? Mods that play the same way every time constantly... can we turn this off? most likely... but dosnt anyone else think this takes something away from the overall TEW expirance most people are going to get?

 

Are we loseing something very core to what the game is about? I asked myself this same thing when they announced the ability to turn off the match repeat penaltys...

[TeemuFoundation]

Are we loseing something very core to what the game is about?

People having fun while playing? No, I don't think so.

[justtxyank]

ok here is a question for the flair vs steamboat feud..........was it any better then the flair vs rhodes feud? or the flair vs magnam feud or the flair vs race feud or the flair vs funk feud or the.......you get my point......i think you could have put anyone in the ring with flair and it would have been gold. Steamboat was just the guy picked because he had some talent.......i don't think there matches were any better then any feud flair had at the time.

 

Yes, it was better. Go look at the matches. Flair/Funk matches were good, and Flair/Dusty were good, but Flair vs Steamboat is legendary because of the amazing quality.

[Hive]

Frankly i think we need some kind of commitee setup of the most expiranced players to decide who gets chemistry and who dosnt on some of these mods that are going to come out, coz its just going to be freaking dier, this right here is a can of worms of problems i just dont think anyone needed.

 

Splendid idea. Maybe that comitee should also decide who gets to play the game and who doesn't?

[ampulator]

I remember the Raw match that they did to apologise for stinking up Mania. It was a good match, sure. But it doesn't constitute good chemistry, especially when you take into account their other matches.

 

Slightly on the same note, did anyone else think that HBK vs HHH vs Cena match recently was just sloppy as hell? Especially toward the end.

Like it has been said before.. even with good chemistry, if they meet the requirements for a good match... it will still stink.

[jbergey_2005]

Splendid idea. Maybe that comitee should also decide who gets to play the game and who doesn't?

 

Well played sir!

 

I find it funny that out of all the things the stats could be messed up, people are worrying so much about something not near as important.

 

IMO data matching up close to CV is much more important that trying to figure out if Orton/HHH have poor, neutral or great chemistry which will likely only turn a B match into a B- or B+ match at best.

[jbergey_2005]

So with turning this feature off does it mean there is no chemistry in the game or does it mean it will be like it is now?

 

I may or may not use the forced chemistry depending on the data I use but if I dont like the data I still want chemistry to play a part like it does now(where everyone starts out neutral and the game tells you good/bad chemistry)

 

Anyone know the answer on this?

[TeemuFoundation]

Splendid idea. Maybe that comitee should also decide who gets to play the game and who doesn't?

Very wel played, indeed. This whole debate has turned so ridicilous it's unbelieavable. How about we all just allow the paying customers to play the game as they see fit?

 

I understand a lot of the points made against this feature and it seems that there is a lot confusion as to what chemistry actually is. But even so, it has already been said that it's easy to mass delete all chemistry notes in the editor before you even start the game, if you were to play a mod made by someone else. So, honestly I don't see the big deal with the addition of this fearure. And before someone points out that I've been very vocal about wanting this feature to be added, I will agree, I have. But I wanted forced chemistry to be added to the game in such fashion that the people, who don't want it, can easily just turn them off. And with the ability to mass delete chemistries that's exactly how it is going to be in the next TEW. If this feature was not added to the game, the minority who wants to be able to edit chemistry, would be disappointed and the majority would be uneffected. But now that we are able to add chemistries in the game if we so choose, the minority will be happier with the game, have more fun with the game, whereas the majority can still enjoy the game just like they have in the past. It's only an improvement.

 

Now, some of you brought up diaries becoming boring now, but I don't see that being so, either. I'm not an avid reader of diaries, but if I get interested in a diary, it's because of a talented writer creating interesting storylines and writing good matches. Anybody can book Sting and Shawn Michaels to a feud and it even set them to have great chemistry and it would draw money, no doubt, but it's up the writer to really create an interesting storyline to back up the match. Is it going to be a drawn-out, deep, interesting and captivating angle leading to the match or rather just a "I am not amused by you, we shall fight at the next pay-per-view event until the bitter end"?

 

All of you people complaining about us now being able to edit chemistries really come off as elitists who think they now better than us how we're supposed to play the game. Videogames are supposed to be about having a good time, having fun. Don't take it so seriously, guys. I'm going to have more fun playing a historical mod where Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels are not going to have awful chemistry as opponents, whereas you will probably have more fun when that exact thing happens. And guess what? Now we can all play the game exactly the way we want. How is that anything but a win-win situation?

 

And it's not like we want to add great chemistry to every wrestling duo that we have ever seen put on a good match, no, most of us just want to block the possibility of bad chemistry between two workers we know don't have bad chemistry. I see it like this: Let's say you were to play a historical mod based in 1994 and you were to play as the WWF. To me, the point of playing a historical mod is to see what would have happened if I were in charge of the company at that given time and see what I could have done differently. And to do that, I need to have the roster of people the promotion had at the time and I feel that I also need to have the set of good and bad chemistries the roster had at the time. It doesn't mean that I want to recreate history exactly the way it happened (Although, therr would be nothing wrong with that, either) it just means that if I want Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart to headline a PPV in a 2/3 Falls match, I could do that without fearing that they don't click, since they didn't they didn't have chemistry issues in real life, either. Well, not in the ring, anyway.

 

Just because I can now block certain bad chemistry combinations from happening doesn't mean that there aren't hundreds of different routes I can go with my promotion. Even if the feud really happened between Bret and Shawn, it doesn't mean that I can't book it differently. And that's just one match, people. There is still a whole lot to book in a promotion to run it succesfully.

 

I applaud Adam for listening to his fanbase and adding this feature that is very important to the people that want it and has no impact on the people that don't want it. Even if he himself is not that enhusiastic about it. It means that he listens to his fans and that's why he is so awesome.

[PeterHilton]

So with turning this feature off does it mean there is no chemistry in the game or does it mean it will be like it is now?

 

I may or may not use the forced chemistry depending on the data I use but if I dont like the data I still want chemistry to play a part like it does now(where everyone starts out neutral and the game tells you good/bad chemistry)

 

Anyone know the answer on this?

 

I don't think it's "turned off"

 

The way Adam has talked about it, the chemistry file will be a set of the data like 'relationships.' So if you have nothing in that file for the database you use, chemistry will work as before

 

(hmmm..if that is how it work, I think that also means that people who use this feature will still have to deal partially with whatever chemistry the game throws at them)

[The Chosen One]

Kurt Angle & Brock Lesnar / Chris Benoit.

 

Cena & Umaga / Orton

 

Shawn Michaels & HHH

 

Foley & Undertaker

 

CM Punk & Morrison

[lazorbeak]

And it's not like we want to add great chemistry to every wrestling duo that we have ever seen put on a good match, no, most of us just want to block the possibility of bad chemistry between two workers we know don't have bad chemistry. I see it like this: Let's say you were to play a historical mod based in 1994 and you were to play as the WWF. To me, the point of playing a historical mod is to see what would have happened if I were in charge of the company at that given time and see what I could have done differently. And to do that, I need to have the roster of people the promotion had at the time and I feel that I also need to have the set of good and bad chemistries the roster had at the time. It doesn't mean that I want to recreate history exactly the way it happened (Although, therr would be nothing wrong with that, either) it just means that if I want Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart to headline a PPV in a 2/3 Falls match, I could do that without fearing that they don't click, since they didn't they didn't have chemistry issues in real life, either. Well, not in the ring, anyway.

 

I don't have any problem with people playing how they want, but I can't wrap my brain around how much it bothers some that bad chemistry might occur, thereby derailing all their plans forever. If you're playing a WWF mod, you can look at every piece of data (remember in real life bookers can only see the match results and raw data for stuff like drawing power, they can't just filter search their way to find their best guys) and see that Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels are far and away your best wrestlers. If you control chemistry as well, you are guaranteed amazing match quality results every time. I guess that is a re-assurance to some, but it smells an awful lot like eliminating one of the few challenges in the game to me. It also seems like a fundamental lack of understanding of what a mod is. It's not meant to be an exact replica of the real world in every way, so the argument "but I know these two don't have chemistry in RL" is completely inconsequential. It's a GAME version, a starting point that is not meant to be a carbon copy of the real world in every way.

 

To make an outlandish slippery slope argument, how far away are we from a situation where you can just tell the game the grades you think you should have gotten and let it just become a $35 tip calculator? "No way, game, I know for a FACT that Jericho vs. Punk should get an A, so I'm changing that B you gave them." But I'm sure a minority of players would looooove this feature and no one would have the right to deny them their fun, right?

[Franchise22]

im not a fan of this. the unknown factor of good or bad chemistry is a mjor part of gameplay. booking, hirings, firings, can all be tied to chemistry. This to me is not playing the game as much as writing a story now. i guess this is good for diaries, but you are no longer really "playing" the game. yes i know you dont have to use it, but i still dont think it should be in imo.

[Tempest Kane]

In regards to the comitee concept, would it hurt to have guy's like DerekB put together a list of people who should and shouldnt have chemistry as a sticky for other mod makers who might otherwise make common mistakes? I dont think i at any point suggested we should vote on who should or shouldnt be able to play the game so im not sure why that got thrown into the mix , and as for TeemuFoundation's implication that some how by my suggestion mean's i'am elitist... if im trying to suggest a thread to help inform people about the rights and wrongs how is that in any way elitist? ...

 

Bandwagon, Check.

Fanbois, Check.

FLAME ON!

[TeemuFoundation]

I don't have any problem with people playing how they want, but I can't wrap my brain around how much it bothers some that bad chemistry might occur, thereby derailing all their plans forever. If you're playing a WWF mod, you can look at every piece of data (remember in real life bookers can only see the match results and raw data for stuff like drawing power, they can't just filter search their way to find their best guys) and see that Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels are far and away your best wrestlers. If you control chemistry as well, you are guaranteed amazing match quality results every time. I guess that is a re-assurance to some, but it smells an awful lot like eliminating one of the few challenges in the game to me. It also seems like a fundamental lack of understanding of what a mod is. It's not meant to be an exact replica of the real world in every way, so the argument "but I know these two don't have chemistry in RL" is completely inconsequential. It's a GAME version, a starting point that is not meant to be a carbon copy of the real world in every way.

You see that's where you and I are just different: I don't want it to feel like a game version of the year 1992 in wrestling, I want to feel as realistic as possible. And every time I booked two workers, who worked well together in reality, together and the game told me that they didn't click, it totally kills the suspense of disbelief for me and reminds me that it's just a mod. I understand what you mean and respect your views, no problem, but the thing is that the ways we view the game the game are just different. Honestly, to me it's not about the challenge, it never has been. I just want to push people I would have wanted to see pushed at the time, but never were, create stories and interesting angles between two workers I feel would have had great matches in real life.. That kind of stuff. And one of the things I love when playing is to come up with motivations for two workers to feud, instead of just looking up two workers with good stats and pitting them up against each other in the ring.

To make an outlandish slippery slope argument, how far away are we from a situation where you can just tell the game the grades you think you should have gotten and let it just become a $35 tip calculator? "No way, game, I know for a FACT that Jericho vs. Punk should get an A, so I'm changing that B you gave them." But I'm sure a minority of players would looooove this feature and no one would have the right to deny them their fun, right?

I have to disagree. While I do see your point and where you're going with it, that's not how I see people wanting to play the game. The point is to see "what would have happened if.." and if the grade is a "B" then the answer to the question is that a "B" would have happened. But I stand behind everything I've said before that if people really wanted to be somehow able to change the match grades, fine, I would not have a problem with that, since I wouldn't have to do that myself. But I honestly don't feel that anyone at all would want to do that and that's nothing like being able to overwrite a few bad chemistry combinations.

[PeterHilton]

Kurt Angle & Brock Lesnar / Chris Benoit.

 

Cena & Umaga / Orton

 

Shawn Michaels & HHH

 

Foley & Undertaker

 

CM Punk & Morrison

 

I honestly don't think any of those (outside of maybe Cena & Umaga/Orton) are example of chemistry in TEW terms.

[TeemuFoundation]

In regards to the comitee concept, would it hurt to have guy's like DerekB put together a list of people who should and shouldnt have chemistry as a sticky for other mod makers who might otherwise make common mistakes? I dont think i at any point suggested we should vote on who should or shouldnt be able to play the game so im not sure why that got thrown into the mix , and as for TeemuFoundation's implication that some how by my suggestion mean's i'am elitist... if im trying to suggest a thread to help inform people about the rights and wrongs how is that in any way elitist? ...

 

Bandwagon, Check.

Fanbois, Check.

FLAME ON!

How about the mod makers just don't touch the chemistry section of the editor and people can add the combinations they want? Would that be a terrible idea?