RW Forced Chemistry Discussion

[Remianen]

Frankly i think we need some kind of commitee setup of the most expiranced players to decide who gets chemistry and who dosnt on some of these mods that are going to come out, coz its just going to be freaking dier, this right here is a can of worms of problems i just dont think anyone needed.

 

Yes, Genadi & TCP step aside. We're putting together a committee to decide what gets into your mod. No offense, that's just how it is.

 

Tempest Kane, there are two responses to your concerns. One, you don't have to play the mod and two, you can always make your own. Mods provided to the public are done by the project lead's discretion. The only person (or people) who should be deciding what gets into a released mod is the person whose name is primarily on the tin. If they want to load the mod up with preset chemistry, that's their decision to make. You can also make the decision to not use that set of data (or to download and modify it to your liking).

 

While I agree that the feature is ripe for misuse, I will never agree with someone not having full say in how a mod they're spending time on is developed. And with chemistry being somewhat subjective in reality (though it's not in TEW), what a group of people thinks should be the case, doesn't mean I (or you or him or her) should have to accept that ruling. There is bias everywhere. I'm sure there are people who truly believe that WWE has the best wrestlers in the world. Does that mean every mod should reflect that belief?

[Hive]

I don't have any problem with people playing how they want, but I can't wrap my brain around how much it bothers some that bad chemistry might occur, thereby derailing all their plans forever. If you're playing a WWF mod, you can look at every piece of data (remember in real life bookers can only see the match results and raw data for stuff like drawing power, they can't just filter search their way to find their best guys) and see that Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels are far and away your best wrestlers. If you control chemistry as well, you are guaranteed amazing match quality results every time. I guess that is a re-assurance to some, but it smells an awful lot like eliminating one of the few challenges in the game to me. It also seems like a fundamental lack of understanding of what a mod is. It's not meant to be an exact replica of the real world in every way, so the argument "but I know these two don't have chemistry in RL" is completely inconsequential. It's a GAME version, a starting point that is not meant to be a carbon copy of the real world in every way.

 

But if you start your game right in the middle of the huge Shawn Michaels/Bret Hart feud, would it make sense that they then get poor chemistry - having prior to the game start had numerous good matches already?

 

I really don't get how some people can get so worked up about others playing the game differently than themselves. If people want to make the game a lot easier, they can already do that as is - through the ingame or pregame editor. Who cares, and why...?

[TeemuFoundation]

But if you start your game right in the middle of the huge Shawn Michaels/Bret Hart feud, would it make sense that they then get poor chemistry - having prior to the game start had numerous good matches already?

 

I really don't get how some people can get so worked up about others playing the game differently than themselves. If people want to make the game a lot easier, they can already do that as is - through the ingame or pregame editor. Who cares, and why...?

This is also an important point to bring out. It may mean nothing to most players, but to me it feels awkward to know that in this current game Bret and Shawn have terrible chemistry with each other and I'm playing, say, a 1997 game. Now, I must imagine the Iron Man match they had the year prior as being a complete stinkfest of a match, because, technically, they must have had poor chemistry in that match as well.

[lazorbeak]

But if you start your game right in the middle of the huge Shawn Michaels/Bret Hart feud, would it make sense that they then get poor chemistry - having prior to the game start had numerous good matches already?

 

 

This is also an important point to bring out. It may mean nothing to most players, but to me it feels awkward to know that in this current game Bret and Shawn have terrible chemistry with each other and I'm playing, say, a 1997 game. Now, I must imagine the Iron Man match they had the year prior as being a complete stinkfest of a match, because, technically, they must have had poor chemistry in that match as well.

 

This is evidence that you're looking at things the wrong way. TEW was never designed to be a real-life wrestling mirror. It is designed to be a game. And even if you use a mod, you are playing a game. A game that starts in a fixed, definite point in time and proceeds from there in a way that because of the literally millions of variables, cannot ever mimic the real world exactly as it happened. So the second you say "but this feud already happened and they really did have good matches," you are talking about some la-la land fantasy that the game knows nothing about. In the same way, in one SWF game I noticed that when NOTBPW put Dan Stone vs. Jeremy Stone they only pulled in the B/B- range, despite the game's own bios saying they had been in some of the greatest matches ever. Because TEW is a game.

 

Chemistry is a game feature that affects how things play out in the game world to ensure that every time you play the game different things will happen. Yes, we all know HBK and Hart had great matches. But what if they didn't? Every time you load up a modded version of the game, you are basically asking thousands of "what ifs" just like that, because it is both impossible and impractical to perfectly reflect the real world while keeping it a game.

 

I mean I guess I could write a script where no matter what you do Bret Hart goes to WCW, Owen dies, ECW goes bankrupt, the time-warner merger happens, WCW goes under, Brock Lesnar leaves the sport in his prime, and everything the player does is change niggling minutiae like "which match was the main event in Wrestlemania XIII" or "how many title reigns did Chris Jericho have" that has no bearing on the game-world, but that game would not be TEW. Also it would probably suck.

[PeterHilton]

This is evidence that you're looking at things the wrong way.

 

C'mon.. seriously...?

 

DO I even need to do the whole "there's no wrong way to play, let the player decide" deal?

 

Some people think the cool part of a historical mod is to have it play out the way it's "supposed" to. Some don't.

[TeemuFoundation]

This is evidence that you're looking at things the wrong way. TEW was never designed to be a real-life wrestling mirror. It is designed to be a game. And even if you use a mod, you are playing a game. A game that starts in a fixed, definite point in time and proceeds from there in a way that because of the literally millions of variables, cannot ever mimic the real world exactly as it happened. So the second you say "but this feud already happened and they really did have good matches," you are talking about some la-la land fantasy that the game knows nothing about. In the same way, in one SWF game I noticed that when NOTBPW put Dan Stone vs. Jeremy Stone they only pulled in the B/B- range, despite the game's own bios saying they had been in some of the greatest matches ever. Because TEW is a game.

 

Chemistry is a game feature that affects how things play out in the game world to ensure that every time you play the game different things will happen. Yes, we all know HBK and Hart had great matches. But what if they didn't? Every time you load up a modded version of the game, you are basically asking thousands of "what ifs" just like that, because it is both impossible and impractical to perfectly reflect the real world while keeping it a game.

 

I mean I guess I could write a script where no matter what you do Bret Hart goes to WCW, Owen dies, ECW goes bankrupt, the time-warner merger happens, WCW goes under, Brock Lesnar leaves the sport in his prime, and everything the player does is change niggling minutiae like "which match was the main event in Wrestlemania XIII" or "how many title reigns did Chris Jericho have" that has no bearing on the game-world, but that game would not be TEW. Also it would probably suck.

I think this only goes to show that you're looking at from just one point of view. Regardless of what TEW "really" is, it can be played in many different ways. And one of them is playing a real world mod where the player wants to think that what has happened in history, until the very point in time you enter the gameworld, has really happened. Maybe this is not what TEW is "supposed to be", but hey, I pay the money for it to have a good time with it. I don't pay the money for it to play the game how some other people want me to paly it.

 

And I don't honestly understand this debate about chemistry always seems to go to the point where we pre-set chemistry -advocates are blamed for wanting to only recreate history. First of all, it's our game, second of all, blocking one or two bad chemistries from happening in the game has nothing to do with "completely recreating history". And what I was talking about was the history that has happened in the gameworld prior to the start of the savegame and the fact that, to me, it's important. The game knows nothing about this and the title lineages are nothing but text, but I know about them. That's the point. If I book a promotion, where I have two workers that I know have had an extended feud and some point in the past, I may want to reignite the feud they have had, come up with a motivation for them to get in the ring once again and go with that.

 

If someone pays the money for GTA IV and does nothing to advance the plot and only enjoys the huge sandbox that the game provides, I say go with it. As long as you have fun, I don't see any problem with that, at all. None. It may not be challenging, it may not be the way GTA IV was meant to be played, but who really gives a flying ****? I swear to God, there's enough challenge in my life trying to handle my job, hobbies and relationships that when I sit down and play a videogame, I really just want to have fun. And my way of playing TEW has provided me with hours and hours and hours of quality times well worth the $34,95.

 

Isn't that a good thing? Isn't THAT the way a games are supposed to be?

[Self]

Jillian Hall & Melina. Bad chemistry or simply bad workers? Those two seem to mess up every other spot.

[TeemuFoundation]

Jillian Hall & Melina. Bad chemistry or simply bad workers? Those two seem to mess up every other spot.

They had a pretty good match once in OVW.

[Adam Ryland]

Please confine the thread to talking about workers in regard to chemistry. The ongoing debate about the concept itself \ player preferences is not only going in circles and is ridiculous, but it's also entirely pointless - the feature isn't going to be taken out, and those who want to use it can, those who don't like it can ignore it. It's retarded to be taking "sides" like it's some sort of war when both sides can have it the way they want it.

 

Oh, and the next person who swears is getting a warning.

[Hive]

This is evidence that you're looking at things the wrong way.

 

Frankly speaking, who are you to decide that?

 

TEW was never designed to be a real-life wrestling mirror. It is designed to be a game. And even if you use a mod, you are playing a game. A game that starts in a fixed, definite point in time and proceeds from there in a way that because of the literally millions of variables, cannot ever mimic the real world exactly as it happened. So the second you say "but this feud already happened and they really did have good matches," you are talking about some la-la land fantasy that the game knows nothing about. In the same way, in one SWF game I noticed that when NOTBPW put Dan Stone vs. Jeremy Stone they only pulled in the B/B- range, despite the game's own bios saying they had been in some of the greatest matches ever. Because TEW is a game.

 

I'd argue that it's actually rather problematic that the game says two workers have the best matches if it's not actually possible ingame.

 

Chemistry is a game feature that affects how things play out in the game world to ensure that every time you play the game different things will happen. Yes, we all know HBK and Hart had great matches. But what if they didn't? Every time you load up a modded version of the game, you are basically asking thousands of "what ifs" just like that, because it is both impossible and impractical to perfectly reflect the real world while keeping it a game.

 

Do you oppose relationships being preset in the game as well, then? By your logic regarding chemistry, you should. Either way, I still don't get why you have a problem with other people playing the game differently than you... there's no online scoreboard you have to compete with. It doesn't really matter. Or at least, it shouldn't... how on earth will you enjoy your game more by knowing that all others play the same way you do?

 

I mean I guess I could write a script where no matter what you do Bret Hart goes to WCW, Owen dies, ECW goes bankrupt, the time-warner merger happens, WCW goes under, Brock Lesnar leaves the sport in his prime, and everything the player does is change niggling minutiae like "which match was the main event in Wrestlemania XIII" or "how many title reigns did Chris Jericho have" that has no bearing on the game-world, but that game would not be TEW. Also it would probably suck.

 

Noone asked for anything like this, and insinuating that's what all proponents of preset chemistries want is rather insulting to be honest.

[Hive]

Please confine the thread to talking about workers in regard to chemistry.

 

I didn't see this untill now... will do.

[jbergey_2005]

When you say both sides can have it like they want it Adam. Does that mean if a database has too much preset chemistry you can turn that off if you choose and it will play out just like the games do now? - With everyone set a neutral and the game will play out the random factor like it does now? Or do you mean there will be no chemistry in the game when it is off?

 

Also, if a database has a lot of preset chemistry will this make the game less likely to add new chemistry notes?

 

Thanks.

[lazorbeak]

Where on earth are people getting the idea that I want people to play differently or decide how people should play "they paid for." Seriously I re-read my post and I'm still not getting it. If you're driving on the street and cars keep coming at you and swerving out of your way, that is evidence that you are doing something wrong. If the default game data doesn't play in a way that you want it to, maybe it's a sign you're looking at it the wrong way? But no, it's obviously me being a big mean guy telling people how to play.

 

C'mon.. seriously...?

 

DO I even need to do the whole "there's no wrong way to play, let the player decide" deal?

 

I am not telling him how to play I am saying that he is playing a game and any approach where he says "I don't want to be reminded that I'm playing a game" is going to run into roadblocks because he IS PLAYING A GAME. And every time he comes up with an example that doesn't work in the context of the game, it's the sort of thing that can't be avoided because he is in fact playing a game.

 

 

I think this only goes to show that you're looking at from just one point of view. Regardless of what TEW "really" is, it can be played in many different ways. And one of them is playing a real world mod where the player wants to think that what has happened in history, until the very point in time you enter the gameworld, has really happened. Maybe this is not what TEW is "supposed to be", but hey, I pay the money for it to have a good time with it. I don't pay the money for it to play the game how some other people want me to paly it.

 

You paid money for a game. I don't care how you play it, that's what it "really is." And as I said, because of the millions of variables, the game provides a starting point, not a road-map that perfectly reflects what really happened. I don't care if you want it to or how you play or whatever, my point is the game can't do that, so getting frustrated that it can't do that isn't particularly productive.

 

 

Frankly speaking, who are you to decide that?

 

He says he doesn't want to be reminded that he's playing a game, then points out how things the game can't possibly be aware of (previous match results) takes him out of the game world. Again, look at what evidence is. I'm not even saying he's definitely wrong, so please don't act as though I am somehow disparaging him.

 

 

Do you oppose relationships being preset in the game as well, then? By your logic regarding chemistry, you should. Either way, I still don't get why you have a problem with other people playing the game differently than you... there's no online scoreboard you have to compete with. It doesn't really matter. Or at least, it shouldn't... how on earth will you enjoy your game more by knowing that all others play the same way you do?

 

It's like the whole paragraph is a response to someone else, because it addresses literally nothing I said. 'By your logic you should hate pants!' It's not about my enjoying a game more at all. At all. It's about how if I buy a game, it will be a game. It can't not be a game. Getting mad when Mario runs into invisible walls because it reminds me that I'm playing a game doesn't make sense.

 

Sorry if this a continuation of this pointless argument, Adam, but I'm not talking about player preferences and based on the EPIC misreading of what I said, clearly I need to clarify what I'm trying to say.

[djthefunkchris]

Best to just drop that part of the conversation period. Adam pointed out what should have been obvious to us all. We should carry on the discussions of who we think have "TEW" Chemistry.

 

I think John Cena and HBK have good chemistry versus each other. I never thought of Cena/Orton as partner's as has been suggested. I did see them as a tag partner one time, and they played off each other really well, but in my opinion, of that one match, I can't help to think it was just "booked" to be that good. They played off each other's movesets is how I remember it. Something like anyone that tags with Jeff hardy will throw an opponant to the corner, then kneel down in front of that corner so that Jeff can do his "move". I don't think that's chemistry as much as just good match booking.

 

I only have one match to go by though. I'm interested in what people have to say farther on these two, as this is the first time I really noticed anyone talking about those two as a tag team.

[Self]

I only remember one Orton/Cena team, and it was 2 vs 10+, and ultimate underdog story with them destroying folks with their moves. That was cool, but it was booking, not chemistry.

[jbergey_2005]

Mickey James and Trish Stratus had excellent chemistry.

 

They put on one of the best matches in that Wrestlemania they were in together. That whole feud was one of the last good ones the WWE has put together.

 

For the DOTT fans Id say Greg Valentine and Brutus Beefcake had poor chemistry despite being a top notch tag team at the time. Brutus usually looked completely out of place.

 

Of course when you stick Brutus Beefcake out there with Greg Valentine, Davey Boy Smith and Dynamite Kid it would be difficult for him to not look awkward.

[lazorbeak]

Mickey James and Trish Stratus had excellent chemistry.

 

They put on one of the best matches in that Wrestlemania they were in together. That whole feud was one of the last good ones the WWE has put together.

 

 

Especially if you got the DVD where they edit out the completely botched finish!

 

Edit: If you can't recognize sarcasm, that's also your problem.

[djthefunkchris]

I only remember one Orton/Cena team, and it was 2 vs 10+, and ultimate underdog story with them destroying folks with their moves. That was cool, but it was booking, not chemistry.

 

That's the one I saw. However, I figured maybe I missed a couple?

[Self]

Mickey James and Trish Stratus had excellent chemistry.

 

They put on one of the best matches in that Wrestlemania they were in together. That whole feud was one of the last good ones the WWE has put together.

 

Well... Trish & Mickie are (arguably) two of the best women wrestlers WWE have ever had. So take those skills, a hot storyline, and an 'All Out' note from being at Wrestlemania and I reckon there's plenty of reason for a good match besides Chemistry. Then again, I didn't see the match. It's just to me, every time someone references a 'Mania match as reason for good chemistry, I kinda disqualify it. EVERYONE works harder at Wrestlemania.

[jbergey_2005]

Well... Trish & Mickie are (arguably) two of the best women wrestlers WWE have ever had. So take those skills, a hot storyline, and an 'All Out' note from being at Wrestlemania and I reckon there's plenty of reason for a good match besides Chemistry. Then again, I didn't see the match. It's just to me, every time someone references a 'Mania match as reason for good chemistry, I kinda disqualify it. EVERYONE works harder at Wrestlemania.

 

Nope it was much more than that. There is a reason Im not bringing up 50 names. I am trying to be selective.

 

The way they sold the story is what I was impressed by. Niether of them were great story tellers but putting them together and they told and sold the story.

 

Its not like the "all out" feature would make a whole lot of difference for these two anyway. Its not like they are going to be able to use their pure athleticsm to make some unbelievable moves or their massive strength to pull of things that have never been done before. They just put together a great match by clicking.

[jbergey_2005]

Especially if you got the DVD where they edit out the completely botched finish!

 

If you cant enjoy a match because of 1 move thats your problem.

 

Id rather watch a match that tells a story and shows great in ring psychology any day over a spot fest that all the moves are done brilliantly.

 

Besides the discussion is about chemistry. One botched move doesnt throw a lot of great work out the window.

[Vladamire Dracos]

Speaking of DOTT, a good chemistry: Jake The Snake and Ron Garvin. Anyone who could tell when a guy was ready to kick the crud out of you by the guys nipples getting hard has to have a deeper connection than is typically found with an opponent.

[Basmat01]

EVERYONE works harder at Wrestlemania.

 

Maybe you werent thinking about Brock Lesnar and Goldberg when you typed that

 

 

But Seriously I wont be using this feature in my mod

[Phil Parent]

Speaking of DOTT, a good chemistry: Jake The Snake and Ron Garvin. Anyone who could tell when a guy was ready to kick the crud out of you by the guys nipples getting hard has to have a deeper connection than is typically found with an opponent.

 

I laughed so hard I cried. Thank you Vlady.

[DreamGoddessLindsey]

When i think of this addition i just think of Russo sat in the creative meeting at TNA saying "Yeah of course thats it! Abyss has wonderful chemistry with Matt Morgan, that will make an awesome fued, book it!!!"

 

Basicaly speaking... it was one of the worst fueds for both of them, but since chemistry is 100% subjective to opinion im sure their are actualy people who will put that into a mod as a great chemistry...

 

Frankly i think we need some kind of commitee setup of the most expiranced players to decide who gets chemistry and who dosnt on some of these mods that are going to come out, coz its just going to be freaking dier, this right here is a can of worms of problems i just dont think anyone needed.

 

The thing about chemistry is its supposed to be a magical thing, its supposed to show up were you dont expect it, it feels like it should be intended to be random at all times and used sparingly, and the truth is i think almost every mod for 2010 will have default chemistrys for just about everyone in the database's as people will feel the need to add them, and then what are you left with? Mods that play the same way every time constantly... can we turn this off? most likely... but dosnt anyone else think this takes something away from the overall TEW expirance most people are going to get?

 

Are we loseing something very core to what the game is about? I asked myself this same thing when they announced the ability to turn off the match repeat penaltys...

 

The thing is, some people aren't playing for a challenge. Some people like to play through history with their own storylines but with real world workers as they really were (meaning Flair and Steamboat would have great chemistry, etc.) and other people just want to make an entertaining diary without the full-on challenge of the game (I fall into this category).

 

It's not always about making things more challenging, it's about making things more fun. I'm not the type of person to play a whole lot of different saves. Usually, when I play, I stick to one or maybe two games, definitely one per universe, and I don't start over very often. Hell, even though I'll be buying TEW2010, I likely won't be stopping my TEW2008 diary to run it in TEW2010, because I like keeping a game running.

 

So no, I don't think anything is lost from this feature. It'll make the game more fun, even if it makes it less challenging.

 

Besides, while chemistry certainly is random, it surely isn't magical. In three months of game time I already have over a dozen chemistry notes, so it's not like it's rare or anything. That and negative chemistry seems more common than positive chemistry.