RW Forced Chemistry Discussion

[Adam Ryland]

As this could potentially be a very long and very dull discussion, please keep discussion about who would qualify for forced chemistry in real world mods in this thread - that way you won't clog up the journal discussion.

 

For reference, here is the TEW definition of chemistry: "It is when the interaction between two workers produces a result that is both regularly and noticeably better or worse than could be reasonably expected from their individual statistics."

[TeemuFoundation]

<p>I, for one, will be adding the horrible chemistries, as well. Chemistries such as Randy Orton and Triple who simply do not click in the ring, what so ever. Or Mr. Perfect and Shawn Michaels. It still boggles me that these two didn't put on the best match ever seen in wrestling when they got into the ring. Their match at SummerSlam 1993 was just.. bad.</p><p> </p><p>

So I will definately include bad chemistries that I feel people have/have had.</p>

[djthefunkchris]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TeemuFoundation" data-cite="TeemuFoundation" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I, for one, will be adding the horrible chemistries, as well. Chemistries such as Randy Orton and Triple who simply do not click in the ring, what so ever. Or Mr. Perfect and Shawn Michaels. It still boggles me that these two didn't put on the best match ever seen in wrestling when they got into the ring. Their match at SummerSlam 1993 was just.. bad.<p> </p><p> So I will definately include bad chemistries that I feel people have/have had.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This is what I think was being warned to be honest. Although HHH and Orton might not have "Great" chemistry, I think it's too early to be making judgement calls for worker's that will probably have another 10 years left wrestling. The difference, is your going reverse with it (Adding in Bad Chemistry that could possibly end up a different way in a year).</p><p> </p><p> The other I don't have a problem with, as one is deceased, and that cannot change.</p>

[TeemuFoundation]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="djthefunkchris" data-cite="djthefunkchris" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>This is what I think was being warned to be honest. Although HHH and Orton might not have "Great" chemistry, I think it's too early to be making judgement calls for worker's that will probably have another 10 years left wrestling. The difference, is your going reverse with it (Adding in Bad Chemistry that could possibly end up a different way in a year).<p> </p><p> The other I don't have a problem with, as one is deceased, and that cannot change.</p></div></blockquote><p> I do see what you mean and I do understand why some people absolutely hate this feature. But I, for one, just don't feel that Triple H and Orton compliment each other in any way. They both have had good matches with different opponents and have worked with each other on numerous occasions, yet all of their matches from match #1 have been simply terrible to watch.</p><p> </p><p> But honestly, if I make a real world mod with biggest mainsteam and indy promotions, I will probably just add a few forced chemistry notes. But the ability to add those few is just so damn important to me.</p><p> </p><p> My question is are the chemistries editable in the live editor? I suppose they can't be imported because the game wouldn't recognize the worker IDs.</p>

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

<p>I'll go with 2 commentary teams I feel play(ed) off each other well:</p><p> </p><p>

Gorilla Monsoon and Jesse Ventura, Matt Stryker and Todd Grisham.</p>

[Gigas]

Elizabeth and Macho Man. Jesse Ventura and Vince Mcmahon. Billy Gunn and The Road Dogg. The Dudleys.

[Gigas]

I think Gorilla and the Brain were good together as well. But it was so long ago maybe Im not remembering correctly.

[Adam Ryland]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Gigas" data-cite="Gigas" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Elizabeth and Macho Man. Jesse Ventura and Vince Mcmahon. Billy Gunn and The Road Dogg. The Dudleys.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'd love to know how you're defining chemistry, as three of those suggestions are bizarre...</p>

[mike b]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Gigas" data-cite="Gigas" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think Gorilla and the Brain were good together as well. But it was so long ago maybe Im not remembering correctly.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I remember and yes they were great together.</p>

[Adam Ryland]

For reference I have updated the first post in the thread to provide a definition of what chemistry is.

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Gigas" data-cite="Gigas" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think Gorilla and the Brain were good together as well. But it was so long ago maybe Im not remembering correctly.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I think I might actually be remembering Gorilla and the Brain myself... They did Wrestlemania 8, right?</p>

[LoganRodzen]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Mr T Jobs To Me" data-cite="Mr T Jobs To Me" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think I might actually be remembering Gorilla and the Brain myself... They did Wrestlemania 8, right?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> They did WM7 as well... for certain matches that didn't involve Heenan managing anyone. I always remember that WM for some reason... maybe it's because I remember seeing it every time I would go to the video store. Slaughter vs Hogan was really over at the time, so was Warrior / Savage.</p>

[Vladamire Dracos]

Monsoon and Heenan pretty much define good commentary team chemistry, I'm surprised anyone would question that.

[TeemuFoundation]

<p>Maybe I'm alone on this one, but a pretty good modern day example of good chemistry would be Edge and Batista. Both of those guys can work well with the right opponent, someone who can carry them. But neither one of them are the types who can carry a "lesser" worker to a really good match. But together, they seemed to have something going on every time they wrestled. I really wasn't expecting their matches to be as good as they were.</p><p> </p><p>

I think Edge and Batista had better matches than Edge and Triple H and Edge/Triple H, by all accounts, should have been a better match than Edge/Batists if we were to look at the workers involved in TEW terms of "statistics".</p><p> </p><p>

At least that's how I understand chemistry.</p>

[Gigas]

<p>I think it was on Raw before Raw was Raw where Gorilla threw out The Brain in his underwear and it was the last time he was on WWF (at least for a long time, ended up on WCW).</p><p> </p><p>

I just remember The Brain in bright red underwear.</p>

[Gigas]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'd love to know how you're defining chemistry, as three of those suggestions are bizarre...</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Using your definition I dont see how they are bizarre at all. Maybe explain why they are bizarre.</p>

[TeemuFoundation]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Gigas" data-cite="Gigas" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Using your definition I dont see how they are bizarre at all. Maybe explain why they are bizarre.</div></blockquote><p> I think the point is that announcers such as Monsoon and Heenan are really good announcers and, all things considered, should work well together as an announce team. So it's not necessarily "chemistry" that is making the magic happen, rather than their individual skills in the announcing department.</p>

[Comradebot]

<p>One question:</p><p> </p><p>

Will people be able to "turn off" all pre-made chemistries? One of my problems with pre-set potential is the fact that many otherwise decent RW mods were full of it, and it really, really took away from the experience to the point I didn't play the mod.</p><p> </p><p>

To me, pre-set chemistry will do the same thing.</p>

[TeemuFoundation]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Comradebot" data-cite="Comradebot" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>One question:<p> </p><p> Will people be able to "turn off" all pre-made chemistries? One of my problems with pre-set potential is the fact that many otherwise decent RW mods were full of it, and it really, really took away from the experience to the point I didn't play the mod.</p><p> </p><p> To me, pre-set chemistry will do the same thing.</p></div></blockquote><p> Create an empty database and then copy/paste its empty chemistry file to the database you wish to play? That should reset all the chemistries.</p>

[Self]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Gigas" data-cite="Gigas" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Elizabeth and Macho Man. Jesse Ventura and Vince Mcmahon. Billy Gunn and The Road Dogg. The Dudleys.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'll agree with Road Dogg and Billy Gunn. I vaguely remember their first matches as a throwaway tag team (was he still Rockabilly?) and being surprised by how good they were. If you're doing a pre-1996 historical mod they might warrant good chemistry. Although I was like 13 at the time, so my judgement isn't all that trustworthy.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Comradebot" data-cite="Comradebot" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>One question:<p> </p><p> Will people be able to "turn off" all pre-made chemistries? One of my problems with pre-set potential is the fact that many otherwise decent RW mods were full of it, and it really, really took away from the experience to the point I didn't play the mod.</p><p> </p><p> To me, pre-set chemistry will do the same thing.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I imagine you can use Mass Delete to get rid of it all in one fell swoop.</p>

[Malioc]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'd love to know how you're defining chemistry, as three of those suggestions are bizarre...</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I don't agree, especially for the non wrestlers.</p><p> </p><p> While I'm partially with you on wrestling chemistries, because a.) match chemistry a far more blurry & not definable than a good "visual fit" of wrestler / manager or a good interaction in verbal style, and b.) there isn't much damage to be done with those side aspects of the game. For game ballance - especially in open games - it matters little, if your dream combo wrestler / diva is "possible" due to chemistry.</p><p> </p><p> Also, I was never a fan of the irreversibility of bad chemistry. In my opinion it is occasionally possible, that chemistry improves (and even decreases) with a (slide) change in style. This is even more the case, if - for example - two family members start into the industry against each other. They may never develope great chemistry, but learning from each other (if they do it) should eliminate bad chemistry over time. Plus, keep in mind that non tag team matches consider opponent-experience at all. You already accepted the effect of experience in certain combinations with tag team experience "retiring" bad chemistry.</p><p> </p><p> I never needed this addition in TEW '08, but it is nice and I probably create some minor "data candy" for myself, if I fall in love with a great possible tag team, that hasn't experience yet.</p>

[Adam Ryland]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Gigas" data-cite="Gigas" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Using your definition I dont see how they are bizarre at all. Maybe explain why they are bizarre.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Sure. Elizabeth added nothing - <strong>literally</strong>, as she rarely spoke and just stood at ringside - to Macho Man's interviews or matches. If they had chemistry then, <strong>by definition</strong>, he'd have been worse when she wasn't his manager, and that simply isn't true. She enhanced his storylines - occasionally - by giving him someone to be protective over, but anyone could have played that role (up to and including a convincing mannequin) with the same results. I'm hard pressed to think of a more useless manager in the entire history of pro wrestling that Elizabeth, so to have her having chemistry with anyone is utterly and completely bizarre.</p><p> </p><p> If The NAO had good chemistry then, <strong>by definition</strong>, they'd have been significantly better in tag team matches when together than with other partners. I can't see any way you'd be able to make a convincing argument that the NAO had better quality matches than Gunn managed with any of his other ten billion tag team partners, because they were all pretty mediocre. Same with Road Dogg - having Gunn at his side didn't suddenly cause him to have fantastic matches, he wrestled at pretty much exactly the same quality he always did.</p><p> </p><p> You can pretty much take the above argument word-for-word for the Dudleys too. Are they firing out significantly better matches when together than they could manage with other partners? And if so, given how abysmal their in-ring work is, exactly what levels of suckitude would they then be responsible for? As with NAO, you seem to be badly confusing popularity with ring work. Are the Dudleys more popular together than not? Yeah...but that has nothing to do with their ring work and all to do with their history and well known double team spots.</p>

[shamelessposer]

I'd maybe consider Jericho and Ultimo Dragon to be an example of opponents with good chemistry, but I don't know how much of that "chemistry" came from wrestling each other for weeks on end.

[Derek B]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="shamelessposer" data-cite="shamelessposer" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'd maybe consider Jericho and Ultimo Dragon to be an example of opponents with good chemistry, but I don't know how much of that "chemistry" came from wrestling each other for weeks on end.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'm happy and sad that people are already showing how badly misunderstood chemistry is. Hopefully this thread can be used to batter the idea into people's heads for the joy of future mods. Now for some opinions!</p><p> </p><p> Orton vs HHH, I'd actually agree that they have bad chemistry. I've seen enough of both of them to know what I can reasonably expect and each time I've seen them fight (sometimes more than once a night <img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">) they've underperformed. That's a definition of bad chemistry right there. Chemistry DOESN'T change over time... people just get better as they become better wrestlers, so the people involved should be able to put on better matches.</p><p> </p><p> The varying commentary teams out there are harder to call.... guys like Monsoon and Heenan were always awesome regardless of who they worked with, so it's hard to say if they had good chemistry. I would be tempted to give them a + but it's hard to say for sure because they were top notch on their own anyways and top notch together.</p><p> </p><p> And I'm with Adam on the multiple examples he gave on non-chemistry. Just because a pairing is a success doesn't mean it's chemistry. The APA were a fun team, but they were fun because they had good gimmicks and wrestled similar styles. Doesn't mean they had positive chemistry. Although for a team like the Road Warriors... i'd have to ponder whether I thought they deserved a note. I've not seen enough of them on their own or with others (barring age related skills fading) to judge them well... hmmm....</p><p> </p><p> I'd suggest Rey Mysterio Jr and Kurt Angle as a good chemistry pairing. They are both awesome workers in their own right but whenever I've seen them together they seem to go to another level.</p><p> </p><p> The Hardy Boys are another example of two kinds of chemistry. I'd say they are positive as a tag team as both of them perform a LOT better together than they ever did apart. And yet, put them in a singles match together and they suck even more than you would expect them to against others in singles competition, at least in the matches I've seen between them. From the Royal Rumble where they eliminated each other early to their first tag split and even to their most recent split... never yet seen a good 1 vs 1 encounter between them. Which is a shame. <img alt=":(" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/frown.png.e6b571745a30fe6a6f2e918994141a47.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png"></p>

[Hive]

Instead of setting eg. the Dudleys to have great chemistry together, I think it would be much more usefull to simply be able to ensure that they won't randomly get crappy chemistry together...