RW Forced Chemistry Discussion

[Genadi]

I think we could all agree on the fact that it would be near impossible to get an A* match out of two opponents with bad chemistry (I'm sure some will disgree ). Now let's take that into account and look at the matches that have received 5 stars from Dave Meltzer (again I know many people don't value his opinion but he's the most respected journo and one of the oldest).

 

All Japan Pro Wrestling

Bruiser Brody & Stan Hansen vs. Dory Funk, Jr. & Terry Funk - December 8, 1984

Tiger Mask II vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi - March 9, 1985

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Genichiro Tenryu - June 5, 1989

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Jumbo Tsuruta - June 8, 1990

Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue, & Masanobu Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada, & Kenta Kobashi - October 19, 1990

Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada, & Kenta Kobashi vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue, & Masanobu Fuchi - April 20, 1991

Jumbo Tsuruta, Masanobu Fuchi, & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, & Toshiaki Kawada - May 22, 1992

Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas vs. Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi - May 25, 1992

Masanobu Fuchi & Yoshinari Ogawa vs. Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi - July 5, 1992

Toshiaki Kawada vs. Kenta Kobashi - April 14, 1993

Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue, & Yoshinari Ogawa vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, & Jun Akiyama- July 2, 1993

Stan Hansen vs. Kenta Kobashi - July 29, 1993

Steve Williams vs. Kenta Kobashi - August 31, 1993

Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi - December 3, 1993

Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, & Giant Baba vs. Masanobu Fuchi, Toshiaki Kawada, & Akira Taue - February 13, 1994

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue - May 21, 1994

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada - June 3, 1994

Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada - January 19, 1995

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue - January 24, 1995

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Steve Williams & Johnny Ace - March 4, 1995

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Akira Taue - April 15, 1995

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue - June 9, 1995

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Satoru Asako vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue & Tamon Honda - June 30, 1995

Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue - May 23, 1996

Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs. Steve Williams & Johnny Ace - June 7, 1996

Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama - December 6, 1996

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada - June 6, 1997

Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama - December 5, 1997

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi - October 31, 1998

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi - June 11, 1999

Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Yoshinari Ogawa - October 23, 1999

 

All Japan Women's Pro-Wrestling

Manami Toyota vs. Kyoko Inoue - May 18, 1992

Manami Toyota vs. Toshiyo Yamada - August 15, 1992

Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori - April 2, 1993

Kyoko Inoue & Takako Inoue vs. Cutie Suzuki & Mayumi Ozaki - April 2, 1993

Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs. Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi Ozaki - April 11, 1993

Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs. Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi Ozaki - December 6, 1993

Manami Toyota vs. Kyoko Inoue - August 24, 1994

Manami Toyota vs. Aja Kong - November 20, 1994

 

Asistencia Asesoría y Administración

Los Gringos Locos (Eddie Guerrero and Art Barr) vs. El Hijo del Santo & Octagón (hair vs. masks; 2-out-of-3 falls under elimination rules for each fall) – When Worlds Collide, November 6, 1994

 

Japan Women's Pro Wrestling

Dynamite Kansai, Cutie Suzuki, Mayumi Ozaki, & Hikari Fukuoka vs. Aja Kong, Sakie Hasegawa, Kyoko Inoue, & Takako Inoue - July 31, 1993

 

National Wrestling Alliance/World Championship Wrestling

The Sheepherders vs. The Fantastics (Bobby Fulton and Tommy Rogers) - Crockett Cup Tournament, April 19, 1986

Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham - Crockett Cup Tournament, April 11, 1987

Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair - Chi-Town Rumble, February 20, 1989

Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair (2/3 falls) - Clash of the Champions VI, April 2, 1989

Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat - WrestleWar, May 7, 1989

Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk ("I Quit" match) - Clash of the Champions IX, November 15, 1989

Ric Flair, Larry Zbyszko, Barry Windham, & Sid Vicious vs. Sting, Brian Pillman, Rick Steiner, & Scott Steiner (WarGames match) - WrestleWar, February 24, 1991

Sting, Nikita Koloff, Ricky Steamboat, Barry Windham, & Dustin Rhodes vs. Rick Rude, Steve Austin, Arn Anderson, Bobby Eaton, & Larry Zbyszko (WarGames match)- WrestleWar, May 17, 1992

 

New Japan Pro Wrestling

Tiger Mask I vs. Dynamite Kid - April 21, 1983

Jushin Liger vs. El Samurai - Best of the Super Juniors finals, May 9th, 1992

Wild Pegasus vs. Great Sasuke - Super J Cup, April 16, 1994

Jushin Liger vs. Great Sasuke - July 8, 1994

El Samurai vs. Koji Kanemoto - Best of the Super Juniors finals, June 5, 1997

[edit] Pro Wrestling Noah

Kenta Kobashi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa - March 1, 2003

Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama - July 10, 2004

 

Ring of Honor

Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk - October 16, 2004

Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi - October 1, 2005

Dragon Kid, Genki Horiguchi, & Ryo Saito vs. CIMA, Naruki Doi, & Masato Yoshino - March 31, 2006 (Presented as a Dragon Gate production)

[edit] Total Nonstop Action Wrestling

A.J. Styles vs. Samoa Joe vs. Christopher Daniels – TNA Unbreakable, September 11, 2005

 

Universal Wrestling Federation

Kazuo Yamazaki vs. Nobuhiko Takada - December 5, 1984

 

World Wrestling Federation/Entertainment

Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon (Ladder match) – WrestleMania X, March 20, 1994

Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (Cage match) – SummerSlam, August 29, 1994

Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin (Submission match) – WrestleMania 13, March 23, 1997

Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker (Hell in a Cell match) – Badd Blood, October 5, 1997

 

 

Now granted from the above list some of the high reviews from those bouts were a result of popular workers, great build, complimenting styels etc. However I'm sure at least a few had good or fantastic chemistry, just thought I'd point those out to float some ideas around. At least we can rule out most of those 1 on 1 matches as guys with bad chemistry.

[soundsofsilver]

I don't have too much to contribute to this, but I would like to think that Chris Benoit and Booker T had really good chemistry?

 

Chris Benoit was obviously exceptional, and Booker T was decent, but their matches were great. So great that WCW booked them, two midcarders, to go at a best of 7 series for a SHOT at the least prestigious title in the promotion. I can't imagine any reason that would happen except for good chemistry. And their styles weren't mirrors of each other, they just went together really well.

 

 

Undertaker and El Gigante for bad chemistry? While two giants, when one of them is so talentless, is generally a recipe for disaster, that match was especially bad.

 

Bret Hart and Davey Boy Smith for good chemistry? It's tough to say how good Smith was exactly, but some of Bret's best matches were against Smith, which is saying something.

 

I wonder about Undertaker and Kane. Part of this is bad memory, so I'm simply curious on people's opinions. Kane clearly got over because of Undertaker, but was it because of the storyline, or were their matches actually really good? I have a hard time thinking they could have pushed that feud so long if the two didn't actually have good chemistry. Or maybe Kane is a better worker than I think. I honestly don't watch enough post-1998 wrestling to know.

 

There was an argument earlier about the New Age Outlaws... I'm not really sure they had great chemistry. I think they benefitted from really good gimmicks. They had the right charisma to pull off the gimmick, and then getting involved with Triple H when he was hot cemented that. I don't know that their matches were actually any better than Smoking Gunns matches, but they benefitted from a great gimmick. Mr. Ass, solo, was a less successful gimmick, but were his matches any worse?

 

Ric Flair vs. Sting has to be chemistry, right? I mean, Sting was still very green back then, and those were some great matches. Much better than they should have been. Since Sting ended up being a good worker, that's not surprising, but back in 1990?

 

As far as tag teams, I think the case has to be made for most of the tag teams that were considered good, but not great individually. It MUST be true about the Steiner Brothers. They were a great, great tag team that had a lot of really good matches, but were not that talented individually. I never know how to rate them in mods, because I want to simulate their ability as a tag team, without them becoming great singles wrestlers. This is also true of the Road Warriors. I don't think chemistry should apply for teams like the Rockers, British Bulldogs, Hart Foundation, Arn Anderson's teams, Harlem Heat, etc. that had one really talented member. But when a team consistently put on much better matches than they should have, it should apply, and I think this is especially true of the Steiners.

 

It is difficult to quantify all this on the real-world level, in the same way it is difficult to argue about what a wrestler's stats are. Chemistry, like wrestling ability, is certainly a

real part of pro wrestling, but it's difficult to be able to include, with all the other factors. There is also the problem of memory. When I watched every Monday from 1996 to 1998, I'm sure I occasionally thought, "Wow, that Prince Iaukea match was surprisingly entertaining." but I don't remember that now. And most of the memorable matches are between workers that are considered to be talented anyway. Real life isn't made up of raw data like TEW, so it's difficult to say the intangibles.

[Adam Ryland]

It MUST be true about the Steiner Brothers. They were a great, great tag team that had a lot of really good matches, but were not that talented individually. I never know how to rate them in mods, because I want to simulate their ability as a tag team, without them becoming great singles wrestlers.

 

I think that the fact that this is the fourth of fifth time someone has said that the Steiners weren't great workers individually is proof, if proof were needed, that this forum is primarily made up of people whose knowledge of wrestling is primarily from the late 1990s onward. Scott Steiner was considered one of the best young workers on the planet at one point in time, and Rick was a solid worker in his own right. Nobody who saw them in their prime would ever call them "not that talented".

[sabataged]

I think that the fact that this is the fourth of fifth time someone has said that the Steiners weren't great workers individually is proof, if proof were needed, that this forum is primarily made up of people whose knowledge of wrestling is primarily from the late 1990s onward. Scott Steiner was considered one of the best young workers on the planet at one point in time, and Rick was a solid worker in his own right. Nobody who saw them in their prime would ever call them "not that talented".

 

Both were hugely talented. They both could suplex you out of your boots from any where. Also Scotty was the first American I ever seen do the frankensteiner. It wasn't until he hurt his back that he bulked up to his freakish look and reinvented himself.

[LoganRodzen]

I think that the fact that this is the fourth of fifth time someone has said that the Steiners weren't great workers individually is proof, if proof were needed, that this forum is primarily made up of people whose knowledge of wrestling is primarily from the late 1990s onward. Scott Steiner was considered one of the best young workers on the planet at one point in time, and Rick was a solid worker in his own right. Nobody who saw them in their prime would ever call them "not that talented".

 

Scott was a legitimate athlete. He was doing NCAA wrestling before I was even born. It's the steroids and his size that made him the "genetic freak" that people remember him as. He didn't even weight 200 lbs when he got into wrestling in the mid-80's. Just goes to show you what the wrestling business can force people to do.

[Genadi]

Scott Steiner was considered one of the best young workers on the planet at one point in time, and Rick was a solid worker in his own right. Nobody who saw them in their prime would ever call them "not that talented".

 

Thanks you, reason sounds in.

 

Even after they split in the very late 90's I think Steiner was superstar material through and through. His body and lifestyle caught up with him, add to that a terrible attitude and his light dwindled.

[Hive]

+1 for the Steiners...

 

When they were in their prime, they were goood.

 

The problem later on probably was that Scott Steiner's steroid abuse and injuries ruined him a bit while Rick Steiner didn't have the charisma to be a superstar alone and thus didn't get much attention.

[justtxyank]

To take Adam's thoughts a step further, both Steiners were still solid individual workers as late as like 1998.

 

I do think they are still an example of good chemistry though, because when they were together everything just clicked. They are one of the best examples of a tag team in history in my opinion.

[Nedew]

Also Scotty was the first American I ever seen do the frankensteiner.

 

It's called that for a reason!

[Hive]

I do think they are still an example of good chemistry though, because when they were together everything just clicked. They are one of the best examples of a tag team in history in my opinion.

 

Indeed. If the Steiners isn't an example of good tag team chemistry, then what team is?

[Derek B]

Discussion about chemistry is hard because it's basically a derivative of trying to work out a worker's skills in the first place. And given how much debate that gets in every mod ever, that makes working out chemistry even harder. I'm glad I don't make real world mods as this would be a logistical nightmare to work out. Cornellverse1997, here I come!

[Historian]

I agree with Derek that discussions of chemistry are very hard, not only because each person has their own opinion of who is talented, but people have their own opinions of what was a good match, or a good tag team, etc...

 

I shall chip in my two cents as far as tag teams I thought I had good chemistry together.

 

1. Cade/Murdoch

Reason: I have always thought Murdoch was a good wrestler in his own right, and Cade has some talent, but as a Tag Team I thought they were far better than when they were singles, and I'm not just talking about their WWE stuff. I have seen them in other locations, and I just feel they complimented each other as tag team partners, and had good (maybe not great) but definitely good chemistry as a team.

 

2. Owen Hart and Davey Boy Smith

Reason: Both were exceptional workers in their own right. Davey was starting to slow down but could still go. Owen Hart, in my opinion, is one of the top five wrestlers to never be a real main eventer, and both had good to great matches with out each other, and some might disagree and say that their team was just the blend of two very good workers, I think they had excellent chemistry.

 

3. Bobby Eaton and Dennis Condrey/Stan Lane

Reason: The Midnight Express in both it's major incarnations are one of the greatest tag teams of all time, yet none of the three wrestlers were really able to capture any magic as singles stars, and as duo's they were far better than they were as singles stars.

 

I think people have this misconception that because two workers are really good, that when they team and the team is good, that the success is naturally a by product of them being good. When singles opponents, I'd tend to agree, but tag team wrestling is a different monster than singles wrestling. Teams like The Midnight Express had two men who excelled at Tag Team wrestling, but were not able to get above mid-card status as singles stars, Shawn Michaels and Triple H are both good wrestlers in their own right, both have had very good matches with numerous opponents. Some may disagree with Triple H, but this is not about starting an argument. The point is, as good as I feel they both are, as a team they don't bring anything special to the table, and are just rather 'eh'. They're not a bad team, but they're not a great team either.

 

Being a good team does not take, necessarily, two good workers. Two average workers can make a good team, and two good workers can make an average team... That's my opinion, at least... You can disagree if you want, I love a good discussion.

[djthefunkchris]

I agree with Derek that discussions of chemistry are very hard, not only because each person has their own opinion of who is talented, but people have their own opinions of what was a good match, or a good tag team, etc...

 

I shall chip in my two cents as far as tag teams I thought I had good chemistry together.

 

1. Cade/Murdoch

Reason: I have always thought Murdoch was a good wrestler in his own right, and Cade has some talent, but as a Tag Team I thought they were far better than when they were singles, and I'm not just talking about their WWE stuff. I have seen them in other locations, and I just feel they complimented each other as tag team partners, and had good (maybe not great) but definitely good chemistry as a team.

 

2. Owen Hart and Davey Boy Smith

Reason: Both were exceptional workers in their own right. Davey was starting to slow down but could still go. Owen Hart, in my opinion, is one of the top five wrestlers to never be a real main eventer, and both had good to great matches with out each other, and some might disagree and say that their team was just the blend of two very good workers, I think they had excellent chemistry.

 

3. Bobby Eaton and Dennis Condrey/Stan Lane

Reason: The Midnight Express in both it's major incarnations are one of the greatest tag teams of all time, yet none of the three wrestlers were really able to capture any magic as singles stars, and as duo's they were far better than they were as singles stars.

 

I think people have this misconception that because two workers are really good, that when they team and the team is good, that the success is naturally a by product of them being good. When singles opponents, I'd tend to agree, but tag team wrestling is a different monster than singles wrestling. Teams like The Midnight Express had two men who excelled at Tag Team wrestling, but were not able to get above mid-card status as singles stars, Shawn Michaels and Triple H are both good wrestlers in their own right, both have had very good matches with numerous opponents. Some may disagree with Triple H, but this is not about starting an argument. The point is, as good as I feel they both are, as a team they don't bring anything special to the table, and are just rather 'eh'. They're not a bad team, but they're not a great team either.

 

Being a good team does not take, necessarily, two good workers. Two average workers can make a good team, and two good workers can make an average team... That's my opinion, at least... You can disagree if you want, I love a good discussion.

 

Pretty much agree though. Two great worker's can make a horrible tag team (bad chemistry). Two mediocre worker's could make an OUTSTANDING tag team (Great Chemistry). With "Neutral" chemistry, the first two would make a great tag team anyways, and the mediocre workers a mediocre tag team.

 

That's how I see it anyways.

[Guest Xoda]

I don't know if it has been said but for me the perfect example of chemistry is Beer Money.inc, two workers who the frist time they tag they were an awesome duo.

[EricAdams]

I just thought of another one I'm not sure I saw mentioned: Masato Tanaka and Mike Awesome. Also Kobashi vs. Misawa, KENTA vs. Marufuji

[King Chono]

I just thought of another one I'm not sure I saw mentioned: Masato Tanaka and Mike Awesome. Also Kobashi vs. Misawa, KENTA vs. Marufuji

 

I covered Kobashi/Misawa and something like KENTA/Marufuji in my post(possibly in this thread). Kobashi and Misawa never had a match that was any better than their overness/stats would permit. They had equally good matches with other people on the All Japan roster, so unless you're trying to say the entire All Japan roster deserves great chemistry with each other, I'd say they're more on the neutral chemistry ground.

[EricAdams]

I covered Kobashi/Misawa and something like KENTA/Marufuji in my post(possibly in this thread). Kobashi and Misawa never had a match that was any better than their overness/stats would permit. They had equally good matches with other people on the All Japan roster, so unless you're trying to say the entire All Japan roster deserves great chemistry with each other, I'd say they're more on the neutral chemistry ground.

 

I see what you're saying and it makes sense. I still think Tanaka/Awesome need it.

[Teh_Showtime]

Nobody thinks punk and morrison have good chemistry? I mean punk is good and morrison is talented but even their ecw title matches stole the show back in 06 (at SummerSlam especially) and even their recent matches this year were some of the best in wwe (i know that doesnt count for much though)

[soundsofsilver]

I would agree that the Steiners of 1995 were much more talented than the individual Steiners of 2000; however, I think that as a team they were much more than the sum of their parts.

[jbergey_2005]

Nobody thinks punk and morrison have good chemistry? I mean punk is good and morrison is talented but even their ecw title matches stole the show back in 06 (at SummerSlam especially) and even their recent matches this year were some of the best in wwe (i know that doesnt count for much though)

 

I think Punk and Morrison are just that good with or without great chemistry so its hard to know for certain on them two.

[Karl_Kitsch]

With Punk and Morrison, I think the match just outstripped their Popularity, not their Performance.

[Slayer]

Chemistry

 

One of example of great chemistry from back in the day in WCW was Sting and the Great Muta(Keiji Mutoh). They seemed to click even though they worked totally different styles and I think it made Sting up his all around game from the power wrestler he could have been stuck as.

 

As for really bad chemistry I would have to say Undertaker and Kane tagging against Kronik was just a mess. What makes this one stand out is that Taker actually was friends with those guys and one would assume they would have worked out the match at some point. But maybe it was just a bad mix to begin with.

[D16NJD16]

Everyone should just always keep in mind not to mistake two guys who are just both great and therefore have great matches with two guys who have chemistry with each other.

[Sartagis]

One of example of great chemistry from back in the day in WCW was Sting and the Great Muta(Keiji Mutoh). They seemed to click even though they worked totally different styles and I think it made Sting up his all around game from the power wrestler he could have been stuck as.

 

As for really bad chemistry I would have to say Undertaker and Kane tagging against Kronik was just a mess. What makes this one stand out is that Taker actually was friends with those guys and one would assume they would have worked out the match at some point. But maybe it was just a bad mix to begin with.

 

Problem with Sting/Mutoh example is that Mutoh is well really good, and Sting was passable by the time they started facing off. Also compared to other Mutoh matches he had with main event caliber wrestlers, the Sting matches while good were not really all that outstanding. So it's more of a real good worker carrying (sorta) a decent wrestler to a better match then he could have with someone of lesser quality, not two wrestlers having both their games upped by working with each other.

 

And I don't think there is tag team chemistry against each other, chemistry between partners but not against other teams. At least I've never seen it. Maybe I've just been unlucky in that department.

 

But again this is an instance of A very strong worker and 3 halfway decent workers. I've always been a HUGE Brian Adams fan even as the Hawaiian Crush and I've always liked Bryan Clarke, and the first time I saw Kronik I thought they were great.....but you can't change reality and the reality is that they aren't great workers, passable big brawlers but not great but any stretch. They can be carried to pretty good matches but otherwise it's just gonna be a by the numbers big brawler match. So expectations for the match really shouldn't have been too high. Way higher then the match ended up being...way waaaay higher but still, so a sub par quality match while not a sure thing is definitely a possibility going into it. Plus they only faced off once....it could have been just ring rust on Kroniks behalf (had been like 7 months since they last wrestled a match) or nerves or some other reason, so I think claiming chemistry (good or bad) on one match just doesn't seem right to me.

[Tom Bombadil]

What about JR and King? I'm ashamed to say I didn't see much of either in their prime and on their own, but they seemed to work so much better as a team than either one of them has been doing since they were split up.