TEW2020 Discussion Thread

[tambourin81]

Then Charisma, Sex Appeal, Menace, ect. Should be how they are most able to get over. You could be amazing in this skill and be your primary attribute, but you may just end up capped by that intangible aspect or IT value which is Star Quality. Those values don't necessarily need to be rolled into one.

 

Honestly you could probably merge Charisma, Mic and Acting skills into a single Entertainment stat in the same way Adam has merged the Submission, Chain and Mat Wrestling skills into a single Technical Wrestling stat, it's not like a highly charismatic worker would be bad at promos in the first place.

 

 

The Match Style setting has been removed from matches; the effect this piece of data used to have is instead controlled by the 'match aim' related road agent notes. For example' date=' instead of needing a specific 1 vs 1 match with the style 'Comedy Based', you can just use the regular 1 vs 1 match and would use the 'Match Aim: Comedy' note. This saves database makers a lot of time, as they don't need to create multiple versions of the same match just to have different style settings, without adding to the player's workload as they would be using the match aim notes anyway.[/quote']

Does that mean that there will be new match aims such as Comedy or Eye Candy to replace these special match styles?

[Jaysin]

Honestly you could probably merge Charisma, Mic and Acting skills into a single Entertainment stat in the same way Adam has merged the Submission, Chain and Mat Wrestling skills into a single Technical Wrestling stat, it's not like a highly charismatic worker would be bad at promos in the first place.

 

Jeff Hardy is one of the most charismatic guys ever, but he has horrible mic skills.

[K-Nection]

Jeff Hardy is one of the most charismatic guys ever, but he has horrible mic skills.

 

Agreed it took him years to even be passable on the mic.

[TLCJR4LIFE]

Combining the technical wrestling stats is one of the biggest improvements the series has ever seen. I've been calling for it forever. I'd go even further, personally, and combine all the brawling stats into one, aerial stats into one, etc. but I'm probably in the minority, so I'll take what I can.

 

As a database maker, I've always felt the workers have way, way too many stats. And honestly, charisma/mic skills/acting should also be combined into "promo ability". Maybe a case could be made for charisma to be its own seperate thing, but I'd be fine with getting rid of it.

 

Just extra clicks whenever modding to be tbh. Anyways, I very much appreciate the change that was made!

 

 

There is only one Brawling and one Aerial stat.

Puroresu and Hardcore are their own separate skills with different calculations and previously supported different match styles. For example you couldn’t use a Puro worker in a Brawl match and it actually do anything unless he had Brawling.

 

 

 

 

Anyway I like the change because the old system, as many things worked terribly with new gens.

First of all the technical wrestlers didn’t spawn right because tech/chain were tied together but not submissions so you’d often see 80/80/50 technical prodigies which is weird but my favorite was having a Giant Entertainer with high 70s submissions after years of development and chain and mat in the 40s.

 

 

 

It's true, really. The EWR "Brawl, Technical, Speed" worked just as well when you get down to it.

 

After Strong Style got renamed "Impactful" in the styles, I wouldn't be surprised to see it combined with brawl either. I'd probably keep Hardcore separate for death matchers who otherwise can't put on a good brawling match. Ariel and Flashiness was always a good way to signify a spot monkey, but given that style is also gone, would be surprised to see those two combined into a generic "High Flying" either.

 

If it is just combining the technical skills though, it's still a nice change, as have all the updates been since I last posted, for the record!

 

Flashyness has nothing to do with the Aerial stat. It’s a catch all match modified that gives huge boosts just like Athleticisn(only moreso).

 

You can have a Brawler with 0 aerial and 80 flashiness and he perform better and likely be a show stopper.

 

 

I’d argue people like Macho Man were pretty mediocre in the booth despite being one of the most charismatic workers in history. Vice versa for Corey Graves who was painfully boring as a wrestler but can at least show flashes as a commentator. There is definitely a difference with those.

 

No the issue was that it used the Charisma stat and not Microphone. The color commentary stat was an awful addition and created more problems than it fixed.

 

 

The thing about being a color commentator is you need to know how to talk. Warrior had a lot of charisma but couldn’t really talk, because charisma extends a lot more than just verbal skills.

Macho Man couldn’t talk at all. He was a one note oddball promo who never said much of anything but he had a good catchphrase and fancy outfits and good body mannerisms of course he’d be a crap commentator.

 

On the other hand there are guys who are boring and have no charisma who can talk. They can make decent color commentators.

 

 

Guys like CM Punk would have high Microphone skills and also adept on commentary.

Booker T has a lot of charisma but is only average microphone and not the greatest color commentator.

[TLCJR4LIFE]

From the Dev Journal entry today... The Mat Wrestling, Chain Wrestling and Submissions skills have now been consolidated into one, a skill called Technical Wrestling. This change makes things more intuitive for players and reduces the workload on database makers, whilst removing a needless over-complication given that the three original skills were always considered as one by the game anyway.

 

Logan Wolfsbaine in the CVerse has 72 chain wrestling, 78 mat work, and 38 in submissions. Therefore the game is going to consider him a 78 in technical wrestling... but how will it portray the fact that he isn't that great at submissions? That is my question and that's what I'm concerned about. Countless other examples of workers in the CVerse whose numbers for these three skills aren't all similar.

 

 

 

It has always used the highest number. It literally has never made a difference. You can see this yourself.

 

It’s really apparent in mods where people make more extreme stat distributions. Alexander atomic and his 94 or whatever Mat Wrestling in Cverse 77 comes to mind.

 

If you increased his poor submissions to be in the 70s it wouldn’t even do anything.

 

The only purpose it had was for training purpose. It technically made technically wrestlers disproportionately OP over long games because they had 3 chances to be elite top row guys where everyone else had 1

 

 

This is horse poop. The Undertaker is a prime example. Until 98, that dude was a wet blanket of black hair, and a choke spot. But he was a STAR, the problem with "star quality" is gimmick, especially in sports entertainment feds and out-of-the-ring factors are usually what dictates this stat in IRL.

 

The "IT" factor of which you speak of is that you can connect with a crowd. This doesn't always mean that you're responsible directly for that. It can just be a cultural thing(Bruno) you don't have to have a natural charisma about you to have it. That's what makes it so hard to find. It's ethereal, the harder you chase it, the harder it is to find. The most successful, let it find them, usually.

 

In game terms, I like the way it is handled now, but I'd just rename it to something like natural ability, or acumen or w/e so it doesn't get spread to far. It's function is to give those guys who develop quicker than other guys, and get over faster than most, as a result, a little juice on everything they do so they stand out. I think it does this, it's just got a name that implies more.

 

 

 

In game terms this nonsense stat gets used as the primary modifier to determine the winner of a national battle regardless of overness. It absolutely does not work intuitively considering the generated workers generate in a fashion that makes “star quality” a completely irrelevant stat.

 

There’s also a huge issue in that Adam decided Star Quality for most young workers of note many years ago, started with the values much higher and now has dramatically decreased it as time goes by. I don’t even see how 2020 CVerse is going to be sustainable given the workers yet to deny in 2016 all start with laughable star qualities in the 60s and such even for the decent prospects.

 

This might be one of the first years he manually adjusts those values but if not it’s going to be silly with all these super old high SQ guys dominating National battle scenes.

 

I guess Adam realized this along with feedback and is now setting the star quality to actually grow over time so we’ll see.

 

I’ve definitively voiced my opinion over the years I absolutely hate the stat and how it works especially in 2016, it basically ruined the game. The issue is that much like the WMMA3 > WMMA4 transition the QOL upgrades are so dramatic that 2013 is unplayable now. Same with WMMA3 being much better than 4 but being unplayable due to contract minigame fixed in 4.

[Hive]

There is no such thing as an intangible "star quality" trait that gets wrestlers over. Every single star has gotten oven due to a combination of the following skills:

- charisma

- entertainment skills

- wrestling skills

- looks

 

There's not a single wrestler who got over because of anything but the above.

 

If you want to keep "star quality", it should not be a single skill on it's own, but a calculated combination of the above. In game terms it could be the average of the 2-3 highest stats (with most of the above examples again being averages from a combination of stats).

[TeemuFoundation]

There is no such thing as an intangible "star quality" trait that gets wrestlers over. Every single star has gotten oven due to a combination of the following skills:

- charisma

- entertainment skills

- wrestling skills

- looks

 

There's not a single wrestler who got over because of anything but the above.

 

If you want to keep "star quality", it should not be a single skill on it's own, but a calculated combination of the above. In game terms it could be the average of the 2-3 highest stats (with most of the above examples again being averages from a combination of stats).

This is actually a really good post and idea. I agree. I've also always been in the camp of people who believe there is no such thing as a mysterious "star quality", which pretty much sounds like magic whenever people describe it. And I personally don't believe in magic.

 

Star Quality is definitely a good game mechanic, though, and I understand why it's there. And that's there your suggestion comes into play, and I like it.

[Blackman]

This is actually a really good post and idea. I agree. I've also always been in the camp of people who believe there is no such thing as a mysterious "star quality", which pretty much sounds like magic whenever people describe it. And I personally don't believe in magic.

 

Star Quality is definitely a good game mechanic, though, and I understand why it's there. And that's there your suggestion comes into play, and I like it.

 

The thing is... there IS already a "mysterious magical" stat called "destiny", which pretty much decides whether they'll be stars.

 

I always assumed "star quality" was its own stat because it evolved differently than it merely being a "combo of looks/char/skill/entertainment". Like, it would improve or lower with the shape of the worker.

[TeemuFoundation]

I liked the Fog of War, and always played with it on, but the new features that have been announced do sound like really nice QOL updates, so they more than compensate. Floating booking ideas is also fantastic. Great addition.

[cps_1908]

I have no issue with Chain Wrestling and Mat Wrestling being combined but I strongly agree with the others that have said that Submission wrestling and Chain Wrestling are two different things.

 

I understand that in TEW 2016 the game would use the highest value out of the three for its calculation and that this change effectively just makes this more transparent for TEW 2020, but none of us knew this until yesterday so I don’t agree that is a good justification for the change.

 

If anything as K-Nection said it should really be that the way that the games calculates is fixed for TEW 2020 as opposed to being more transparent with a previous deficiency.

 

As things stand there will be no way to properly differentiate between a wrestler who is really good at Submission but not so good at chain wrestling and vice versa. There are lots of wrestlers that fall under these categories and taking what amounts to a cookie cutter approach with a technical stat trivialises the differences in those workers.

 

The various different stats are part of what allows for each wrestler to feel unique. It’s what allows a mod maker to make a mod with over 2000 workers and have a variation to each worker.

 

Football manager has 36 different stats for a player as well as 12 hidden stats all of which allows for a diverse database of players.

 

With every stat that’s combined in TEW we stand to lose more diversity in the workers that populate the various databases.

[SirMichaelJordan]

I don’t know how I feel about no more FOG...Never been a fan of knowing exactly how a worker is rated. It would be cool if we could also have an option to see ratings as numbers or letters. That would more than compensate for the removal.

[TeemuFoundation]

I really hope TEW never becomes a super complex endeavor like a Foorball Manager. The biggrst problem the TEW games still face is the lack of mods, and to make the game more modding friendly, it needs to be simplified and streamlined, not complicated further.

[Togg]

I don’t know how I feel about no more FOG...Never been a fan of knowing exactly how a worker is rated. It would be cool if we could also have an option to see ratings as numbers or letters. That would more than compensate for the removal.

 

 

This is already in TEW 2016, you can switch between numbers and letters.

 

 

I have never actually used fog of War, even though i always wanted to give it a roll. I'm sad to see any feature removed, but this one wont effect how I play TEW, at the very least.

 

 

 

Great few announcements with Skills and Title Belts the last few days. Along with all the new Relationship/Development stuff. Creating a modern day NWA Mega Power sounds like a plan!

[Slim Jim]

On the Star Quality debate, I like the idea of it being a weighted average of other stats. Someone like Mick Foley had Star Quality because of his charisma and entertainment skills but in spite of his looks (in TEW terms of looks at least; I actually think how he looks played into his gimmick so well that it was a positive).

 

I would argue that wrestling skills shouldn’t be one of the factors that goes towards it. ‘Vanilla midgets’ are basically the definition of guys that lack star quality. They are great in the ring but they don’t have ‘it’. The only exceptions to that I could see making any sort of sense would be Flashiness and Psychology.

 

I think it’d work well as a combination of the following:

Charisma

Looks (the most important two, weighted towards whichever is higher)

supported by:

Gimmick rating (Kane had more Star Quality than Isaac Yankem)

Popularity (if other people think someone is a star, it influences the opinion of even more people)

Psychology

Flashiness (I think Star Quality is more about the intangible sense you get of a worker so I’m resistant to include in-ring stats but I think if you flicked onto a match with someone with very high psychology or flashiness your reaction would be more likely to be that they were a star)

Overall entertainment stats (or maybe just Mic/Acting so Charisma doesn’t get a double impact)

Athleticism or Power (whichever is higher, physically impressive people seem more like stars, maybe even add Toughness to the options)

 

I know that seems complicated but the game would take care of the calculation and having more variables makes SQ seem more intangible despite just being a formula and numbers (which it will always be underneath) and makes it more fluid because someone can become more star-like with the right gimmick and successful push.

[smw88]

On the FOW piece in games such as FM they reflect scouting knowledge by on the comparison or worker screen showing either a blank value or a range of values which shrinks as knowledge increases.

 

If possible I would prefer it to show only absolutes for highly popular or visible workers and as their popularity decreases the range widens until little is known.

 

This would drive more into the development process as hiring a complete unknown could lead anywhere whilst a local indy star may look like a solid prospect until you take a closer look at them. If you interview someone you know basics like their look maybe charisma or mic ability (first impression) but you wont know much else till they work in most cases unless they are already working regularly or on TV.

 

Ultimately I wont lose any sleep if it stays as announced but would be nice to have.

[Cold Cobra]

Flashyness has nothing to do with the Aerial stat. It’s a catch all match modified that gives huge boosts just like Athleticisn(only moreso).

 

You can have a Brawler with 0 aerial and 80 flashiness and he perform better and likely be a show stopper.

 

Really? I was always under the impression that Flashiness was connected to Ariel, and Ariel alone. Like the difference between a plain cruiserweight like, say, Billy Kidman back in the day having just some Ariel, and a Ricochet now having lots of Flashiness to go along with it, with having lots more Flashiness than Ariel being a good indicator that a person is all flips and no real ability to put on a good cruiserweight/lucha match.

[Dolfanar]

I really hope TEW never becomes a super complex endeavor like a Foorball Manager. The biggrst problem the TEW games still face is the lack of mods, and to make the game more modding friendly, it needs to be simplified and streamlined, not complicated further.

 

Again, couldnt agree more.

 

 

The whole submission thing baffles me. The game doesn't simulate matches. At all. It looks at ratings and tries to determine a match rating. There is a difference. There is no need to go into that much detail because you will never know whether a single submission move was applied.

 

Brawling, puro and hardcore should absolutely be combined in the same way into a Rumble skill. Puro and Hardcore are styles and should be covered by that mechanic and not by having superfluous skills imo. Again if Puro is a skill, why not lucha? Some kind of personality trait could cover a workers willingness to do crazy s--- like allowing someone to staple their head or be slammed on thumb tacks.

[lavelleuk]

Genuinly gutted FOW has been taken out, I know not everyone used it but it's going to be so boring to me just going off numbers, sometimes it's fun giving monster pushes to guys then finding out they weren't worth it. Now everything will just be "why hire x when y is better" "I won't use dominate as numbers aren't high enough" etc.

 

To me it'll now just become a numbers game, with pretty much no room for error as everything is there. No more giving loads of mic time to a guy who it turns out is useless on the Mic, it'll just be hiring people based on that info rather than taking a risk on people who seem fun

[shawn michaels]

One more post about this, after reading all that has been said, in hopes that Adam may think about changing something. I think what people are most upset about is that they have been playing and modding under the impression that all 3 stats mattered, so they feel a bit betrayed. After much consideration i have to agree that chain wrestling and submissions would be much better served as 2 different stats (combining mat with chain seems fine to me) as they are two different beasts.

 

As for star quality, we are talking about a stat that mainly evolves with looks. I never really liked it and getting rid of it, or the way it works as of now, would be much better. I 100% agree with Hive on the actual factors, or combination of them, that actually make someone a star and that could be used to calculate SQ if the stat for some reason needs to stay. For the remaining stats it is probably for the best not to merge anything else.

 

As for today's entry i like it. While I always played with FOW on, I will not lose my sleep over its removal when it leads to better features. Plus, the destiny stat is always hidden, like the overness cap, meaning we don't really know what a worker can really become fully until we book him. To me it's an acceptable compromise to remove FOW but get the comparisons, that are much more useful in the long run.

 

Booking requests is so awesome and proves that QOL changes are becoming a great reason to buy the game on their own. Now only hoping that this leads to being able to convince workers to change their minds and to offer them or promise them stuff to negotiate and to change their willingness to do something.

 

Overall it is shaping to be a great game.

[christmas_ape]

On the Star Quality debate, I like the idea of it being a weighted average of other stats. Someone like Mick Foley had Star Quality because of his charisma and entertainment skills but in spite of his looks (in TEW terms of looks at least; I actually think how he looks played into his gimmick so well that it was a positive).

 

I would argue that wrestling skills shouldn’t be one of the factors that goes towards it. ‘Vanilla midgets’ are basically the definition of guys that lack star quality. They are great in the ring but they don’t have ‘it’. The only exceptions to that I could see making any sort of sense would be Flashiness and Psychology.

 

I think it’d work well as a combination of the following:

Charisma

Looks (the most important two, weighted towards whichever is higher)

supported by:

Gimmick rating (Kane had more Star Quality than Isaac Yankem)

Popularity (if other people think someone is a star, it influences the opinion of even more people)

Psychology

Flashiness (I think Star Quality is more about the intangible sense you get of a worker so I’m resistant to include in-ring stats but I think if you flicked onto a match with someone with very high psychology or flashiness your reaction would be more likely to be that they were a star)

Overall entertainment stats (or maybe just Mic/Acting so Charisma doesn’t get a double impact)

Athleticism or Power (whichever is higher, physically impressive people seem more like stars, maybe even add Toughness to the options)

 

I know that seems complicated but the game would take care of the calculation and having more variables makes SQ seem more intangible despite just being a formula and numbers (which it will always be underneath) and makes it more fluid because someone can become more star-like with the right gimmick and successful push.

 

I really like this idea.

 

I've always been pretty pro star quality in that I think it exists in real life wrestling, and I think it's a fun game mechanic. But I love the idea of it taking the whole picture into account, especially how factoring in gimmick ratings would both make the gimmick mechanic and the star quality more dynamic.

 

I think the only way you could get rid of star quality without losing the impact it has on the game is to still sort of make the link without actually having the stat. For example in national battles it could still give each wrestler a score based on a concoction of popularity/charisma/gimmick rating which would essentially be working out how star studded your roster is. It could do the same for merchandise and ticket sale, but because the star quality is so intangible it would make sense not to try to tie it down to 1 pretty static stat.

 

It's like you COULD argue Steve Austin had that intangible 'star quality' prior to becoming Stone Cold, but 100% he was more of a star once he had that gimmick so the gimmick aspect of it should factor into things such as national battles. Now I know you could say something like well the gimmick would help his overness, and this in turn would help him in national battles. But I think this system would add more nuance to the mechanic, like now you couldn't just sign Marat Khoklov and because of this overness know you're safe in the national battles, but you'd have to bring him in and debut him with a successful gimmick for him to actually seem like a star.

 

 

My opinion is the merging stats is that I'm surprised and a little disappointed that the technical stats work the way they do, but IF that's how it's going to stay then I see no reason not to merge them. I've always acted like they mean something (for example favoring submission skill in submission based matches) but if that actually has no affect then I'd prefer it to be clear about that.

 

I'm surprised to hear Fog of War isn't so popular as I have never played 16 without it, it adds a whole level of stategy about whether to invest in certain wrestlers who you think could be great but you don't know enough about them yet, and in general just seems realistic, as a random booker I shouldn't know EVERYTHING about EVERYONE, not even my own roster unless I'm a large company with well known wrestlers. But with all the great changes in the last week or so it's not a game changing for me.

[DarK_RaideR]

Real happy about the added options when talking to a worker, can't say the same about Fog of War. For me it's always been a double-edged sword, I liked the element of uncertainty, surprise and development as a player but kinda hated it as a diary writer since I couldn't quite narrate a worker's style in a match and had to take a look under the hood (a.k.a. editor). I understand how FOW can mess up the new "search & compare" options, but if there's a chance of any middle ground, I'll happily take it.

 

To elaborate on that, if the code can handle it, I think Adam could make it an option that can be turned on and off and adjust the search results accordingly. In TEW16, having FOW off means you get owner goals like "Don't hire anyone with an X stat of below this margin" which you don't get if FOW is on. Likewise, searching for a worker with, say, "Decent Chain Wrestling skills" might prevent someone from appearing on the results just because of the fog (I believe). In the same vein, FOW could be kept as an optional feature but with the added risk of missing out on some folks when doing searches.

[Morti]

Loving all the last two week's entries!! Great stuff Adam

[SirMichaelJordan]

This is already in TEW 2016, you can switch between numbers and letters.

 

 

I have never actually used fog of War, even though i always wanted to give it a roll. I'm sad to see any feature removed, but this one wont effect how I play TEW, at the very least.

 

 

 

Great few announcements with Skills and Title Belts the last few days. Along with all the new Relationship/Development stuff. Creating a modern day NWA Mega Power sounds like a plan!

 

That’s not what I’m talking about. Regardless if you use letters or numbers in the grading system, numbers will always show up on the right side of a worker’s profile once you reach the highest level of scouting. With fog of war gone, we should be able to view those in grades as well.

[Moe Hunter]

I hope there is a small % of the time where a worker changes their mind when it comes down to the moment of truth. Not a common thing, and possibly based on personality, where they'll say one thing to your face and screw you over on the big day.

[TeemuFoundation]

I hope there is a small % of the time where a worker changes their mind when it comes down to the moment of truth. Not a common thing, and possibly based on personality, where they'll say one thing to your face and screw you over on the big day.

”On second thought, this doesn’t work for me, brother.”