The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[overthetop2]

17 hours ago, Jaysin said:

If you don't understand booking and story telling, maybe pro wrestling really isn't for you? Why watch something you clearly hate and don't understand?

I wouldn't have made a GDS account in the first place if I didn't like pro wrestling at one point.  And I'd like to think I still do like pro wrestling, which is why I've grown to hate WWE's depiction of it over the last 10 years.  This really has been a slow burn starting from Brock Lesnar's first title reign of the modern era in 2014;

- Part time world champions whose sporadic appearances slow the title picture down to a crawl.  This was every Lesnar reign that lasted more than a couple of months, then it was Roman's reign of terror.  This leads into...

- Overly long heel reigns that often end in underwhelming fashion.  Between Lesnar and Rollins in 14-15, a heel held the WWE title for almost 15 months before the latter got injured.  And if it wasn't injury, it would be a short and underwhelming match where Lesnar spams his finishers like it's HCTP before losing, or a Goldberg squash which disgusts me as someone who wants to see workrate be rewarded.  And yet...

- New stars blown up by Lesnar/Goldberg.  Wrestlemania 35 was on the last good ones imo.  Kofimania begun in a great match against Daniel Bryan and it looked like the WWE was moving on from their over-reliance on old names.  So naturally, Kofi gets squashed by Lesnar on a random Smackdown with no build, and he's had few opportunities at the top of the card since.  Bray Wyatt was also having a good reign as The Fiend just before COVID hit.  Then they have him lose to Goldberg in 3 minutes, and if not for Cena putting him over in a big way at WM 36, that too would've turned into a burial.

- Nonsensical match outcomes.  Speaking of The Fiend, THEY ENDED A HIAC MATCH IN A DQ.  The aforementioned Kofi losing in 7 seconds after being booked strong for 6 months also fits here, as does Seth Rollins losing to a one armed man, yet we're supposed to take him seriously as a potential world champion after that.  And then there's almost every match in Roman's reign of terror from the 2 year mark onwards; the heel has to lose at some point and Drew McIntyre winning at Clash at the Castle '22 was as good a time as any in my book.

- Which brings us to Roman Reigns.  The problem from as far back as 2015 wasn't that he was a bad worker.  It's that he was getting a rocket strapped onto him when there were more seasoned workers and interesting characters that deserved the shot more.  His heel turn did not in my opinion fix the root problem of him being the only new star the WWE has actually nurtured in years.  If anything it made things worse as they gave him a 1,316 day unbroken reign as a heel, when not even a face has held the title that long since Hulk Hogan.  This loops back around to points 1 and 2, as Roman also became a part time worker after returning as a heel.

And because Roman is the only new mega star they've managed to build in years, the WWE has to dip back into the well of old names to generate a buzz for Wrestlemania.  Thus, Rock gets involved, and in exchange for being allowed to win the WWE title as an ex-AEW talent, Cody Rhodes has to job to The Rock and then get bailed out by Cena and Undertaker the following night.  In summation, I understand booking and storytelling, I just hate WWE's approach to it.

Maybe it's an inherent flaw in myself as I feel compelled to be caustic about everything in life.  In high school I s--- all over Romeo and Juliet for having an unsatisfying conclusion that glorifies suicide.  And I felt more at home in early '10's era IWC that would get vocally mad at the product over today's fanbase.

[Wrestling Machine]

3 hours ago, overthetop2 said:

Thus, Rock gets involved, and in exchange for being allowed to win the WWE title as an ex-AEW talent, Cody Rhodes has to job to The Rock and then get bailed out by Cena and Undertaker the following night.

Just to be clear, in your opinion, losing to The Rock + Roman Reigns in tag team action after they cheat their way during the match is jobbing?

Also, isn't it one of the most traditional things about pro wrestling to see a few babyfaces coming out to evening the odds against the outnumbered heel and his crew? Does it diminish Rhodes' win?

You see Cody receiving an ex-AEW talent "special" treatment? I don't see it but maybe you can convince me otherwise! I see a former WWE guy coming back brighter and better, re-debuting at Mania by beating Rollins, going 3-0 against one of the biggest stars of the company in the last decade, winning back-to-back Rumble, headlining two WrestleManias, not pinned/submitted clean once if I'm not wrong about it, dethroning the megastar of this generation. The way you talk about it, it sounds like WWE put him through hell lol

EDIT: by the way we'll probably agree on the fact that 100 other things don't make sense still lol by that's really a modern wrestling problem imo, not just WWE

Edited April 9 by Wrestling Machine

[eayragt]

I just don't see how Cody "jobbing" to The Rock is a bad thing. It sets up a future match, he's still mega hot after becoming a champion. If Cody wins Night 1 he's still massively over, but people are meh about a future match with Rocky as it doesn't have the build.

Sure, you may doubt he's the best as the thought is that someone could beat him but... that's sort of the point? If you've got a champion who you don't think can lose, why do you watch? I'm not interested in Jay Vs Priest as I know Priest will win, but I'll be interested if it's McIntyre Vs Priest at Clash the following month as I don't know who'll win that.

A lot of other stuff mentioned over the last decade did indeed suck, but Kofi getting squashed is incomparable to an epic, tainted defeat in a part one match, which will lead to a future match.

[willr0ck]

Unless you are enhancement talent in a sqaush match losing to The Rock should never be considered "jobbing". There is nothing wrong with losing to one of the most popular megastars in the history of pro wrestling as long as you look good in the process. IMO neither Cody, nor Seth were made to look weak in that match. Top guys fight other top guys at big events, someone has to lose and someone has to win.

 

On a funnier note, I watched the replay of Mania to see what I missed being there live. Am I the only one who found it hilarious that the Bayley/Iyo match had ads for butt wipes for dudes plastered everywhere? 

To think that all these years I've been using gender nonspecific toilet paper.

Edited April 10 by willr0ck

[The Swanton825]

They booked that pretty much like Dusty booked his main events. That man was so fond of overbooked finishes that you'd think we would have named a specific type of finish after him...

[overthetop2]

12 hours ago, willr0ck said:

Unless you are enhancement talent in a sqaush match losing to The Rock should never be considered "jobbing".

Well I think the guy you're trying to push as the best wrestler in the company should not be getting pinned by someone who hasn't wrestled a proper match in 11 years and hasn't been a full time competitor in over 20.  I don't care how big The Rock used to be, a wrestler losing to someone who is no longer a wrestler just makes them look bad.

Edited April 10 by overthetop2

[The Blonde Bomber]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

[Self]

6 hours ago, overthetop2 said:

Well I think the guy you're trying to push as the best wrestler in the company should not be getting pinned by someone who hasn't wrestled a proper match in 11 years and hasn't been a full time competitor in over 20.  I don't care how big The Rock used to be, a wrestler losing to someone who is no longer a wrestler just makes them look bad.

I partially agree. I don't take it to those extremes, but there's something about returning legends or celebrities or 'part timers' coming in and instantly destroying the current roster that makes the sport (the fictional sport that exists in the reality of the show) look bad. Or at least, worse. Goldberg's done it a bunch. Logan Paul instantly being a world beater. CM Punk returning after X years away and becoming AEW World Champion so quickly. It rubs me the wrong way. I believe in ring rust. I believe that if you stop doing something, you lose a certain spark. I guess I want to believe that there's a reason that WWE superstars (in the fictional reality of the show) fight so often. It's to keep their skills sharp and stay ahead of the game. They're like sharks. If they stop swimming they die. 

But maybe I'm wrong in this thinking. MMA is structured differently. Fight camps are the real way to get people ready for a fight. Those damn Paul brothers keep succeeding in things thanks to (I assume) proper training and expensive trainers. Maybe if companies showed this (kayfabe) preparation side it might help. Rock didn't just wander in. He's been at the Bloodline's Fight Pit, running drills with Solo and Jimmy Uso, rediscovering his spark.

I do think Cody/Rocky is a good money match to set up for the future, although I didn't personally love the finish they did in the tag match. Kinda slow.

[SanX]

12 minutes ago, Self said:

But maybe I'm wrong in this thinking. MMA is structured differently. Fight camps are the real way to get people ready for a fight. Those damn Paul brothers keep succeeding in things thanks to (I assume) proper training and expensive trainers. Maybe if companies showed this (kayfabe) preparation side it might help. Rock didn't just wander in. He's been at the Bloodline's Fight Pit, running drills with Solo and Jimmy Uso, rediscovering his spark.

It's such a cool idea - Rock training with bloodline members or a Samoan style training montage of some sorts, it would have been really fun.

Though if you think about it - Rock in and out of his character was talking about his in-ring preparation for a long time now, he even proved his abilities against Jinder, a former world champion, by taking him out.  You add his character to the mix - being a Hollywood action star, CEO of WWE, his past record at WM and his credentials as a wrestler - at least kayfabe wise, he had tonnes of resources and time for preparation. It's certainly plausible that he was good enough to hang with the top guys, at least alongside someone like Reigns.

Agree about the match, night 1 match felt janky to say the least but screw it, night 2 main event more than made up for it.

[Dawn]

41 minutes ago, Self said:

Logan Paul instantly being a world beater.

Just wanted to chime in on this one as Logan's record in big matches was actually in the negatives before he won the US title. I agree with the other examples you gave but was wondering what about his presentation bothered you in this sense as there are quite a few things to dislike about him but after he started off 2 and 0 beating Dom Mysterio and Miz he lost about 4 big matches in a row so his power balancing is not really one of them imo  

[Self]

35 minutes ago, Dawn said:

Just wanted to chime in on this one as Logan's record in big matches was actually in the negatives before he won the US title. I agree with the other examples you gave but was wondering what about his presentation bothered you in this sense as there are quite a few things to dislike about him but after he started off 2 and 0 beating Dom Mysterio and Miz he lost about 4 big matches in a row so his power balancing is not really one of them imo  

If you're competing in WWE, then you are (in theory) one of the greatest fighters in the world who has risen through the ranks to make it to the grandest stage of them all. The NFL has the best football players. WWE has the best combat sports specialists. From Cody to Miz to Dom to Joe McNXT. All better scrappers than the lads down the local pub. That's the central conceit of the show. So for any celebrity to come in and not lose in 5 seconds to anyone on the roster... that's where it starts to bother me. 

For Logan specifically, that stance has softened. Originally I thought he was just a Youtube celebrity, but he's done combat sports, fights, etc, that give him more legitimacy. Enough to beat Dom, sure. Miz? Maybe. But he lasted longer than 5 minutes against Roman Reigns. That bothered me. In the same way Goldberg beating The Fiend bothered me. 

But it's much like the Rock thing. My brain has been set up to believe repetition equals mastery, and that the only way to become the best fighter in the world is to have many, many fights on live TV and PPV. And that's not really reality.

I should also note I've watched very little of Logan Paul's stuff. I don't habitually watch WWE. My feelings are just based on reading and hearing about things happening. Feelings based on concepts more than execution. 

Edited April 10 by Self

[overthetop2]

2 hours ago, Self said:

So for any celebrity to come in and not lose in 5 seconds to anyone on the roster... that's where it starts to bother me. 

For Logan specifically, that stance has softened. Originally I thought he was just a Youtube celebrity, but he's done combat sports, fights, etc, that give him more legitimacy. Enough to beat Dom, sure. Miz? Maybe. But he lasted longer than 5 minutes against Roman Reigns. That bothered me.

I don't mind a good "heel gets more than they bargained for" angle if it's handled properly.  The heels are usually those who cheated their way to the top rather than earn their spot legitimately, so it's easier to believe that a celebrity turned wannabe fighter could get the jump on their overconfident opponent.  The caveat is that the heel should always eventually get their heat back and win clean, unless you want to run an angle where a face that has been tormented for weeks gets revenge by costing them the match.  In the latter case, this has to be a particularly strong interference and not just a distraction, otherwise the heel still looks bad.

Regarding your greater point, the best in the world in almost any sport work hard to reach and maintain a standard that no average person could match even with years of practice, and that should also be reflected in a wrestling promotion being presented as world level.  So yes, it should take a while for someone who was a world beater to get back to that point if they've been out for a while.  That means The Rock in WWE's case.  And even though CM Punk started his AEW run fighting midcarders instead of going for the title right away, I agree that another loss or two on the way to the title would've made more sense from a realistic storytelling perspective.

Edited April 10 by overthetop2

[Matt_Black]

On 4/9/2024 at 1:51 PM, willr0ck said:

 Top guys fight other top guys at big events, someone has to lose and someone has to win.

Unless Vince is in charge. He's the guy who had the main event of Hell In A Cell end in a no-contest two years in a row.

[willr0ck]

On 4/10/2024 at 2:44 AM, overthetop2 said:

Well I think the guy you're trying to push as the best wrestler in the company should not be getting pinned by someone who hasn't wrestled a proper match in 11 years and hasn't been a full time competitor in over 20.  I don't care how big The Rock used to be, a wrestler losing to someone who is no longer a wrestler just makes them look bad.

Well we can agree to disagree on that point. Everyone has an opinion and none of us are right or wrong when it comes to a wrestling discussion. The E has done plenty of stuff I've hated over the years, I just happened to enjoy the two matches and how they played out. 

9 hours ago, Matt_Black said:

Unless Vince is in charge. He's the guy who had the main event of Hell In A Cell end in a no-contest two years in a row.

Ugh, I forgot about some of that stuff. Thanks for the reminder. I kind of checked out once Bryan Danielson left for a few years, all those bad Vince decisions are kind of a blur.

[CQI13]

On 4/10/2024 at 9:43 AM, SanX said:

It's such a cool idea - Rock training with bloodline members or a Samoan style training montage of some sorts, it would have been really fun.

Though if you think about it - Rock in and out of his character was talking about his in-ring preparation for a long time now, he even proved his abilities against Jinder, a former world champion, by taking him out.  You add his character to the mix - being a Hollywood action star, CEO of WWE, his past record at WM and his credentials as a wrestler - at least kayfabe wise, he had tonnes of resources and time for preparation. It's certainly plausible that he was good enough to hang with the top guys, at least alongside someone like Reigns.

Agree about the match, night 1 match felt janky to say the least but screw it, night 2 main event more than made up for it.

Didn’t they say he had a 6 week camp with Gallus or some group in NXT? I guess you would film the vignettes with The Bloodline, but it was acknowledged that he didn’t just come back and take the match having not trained.

[guyver3]

I definitely remember commentary mentioning a couple times he did a 6 week camp in preparation for the match don’t remember who they mentioned was there but they brought it up 

[Jaysin]

I read that the Rock trained with the Gallus boys with Bobby Roode and Chad Patton helping with the non physical stuff.

[CQI13]

So Jimmy is out of the Bloodline, Solo has taken over ans Tribal Chief, and Tama Tonga debuted. All the while, with Heyman as a reluctant member/caught in the crossfire. 

[Sisma]

6 hours ago, CQI13 said:

So Jimmy is out of the Bloodline, Solo has taken over ans Tribal Chief, and Tama Tonga debuted. All the while, with Heyman as a reluctant member/caught in the crossfire. 

I have only seen clips, so far. Was it implied that The Rock is the Tribal Chief and Solo is just acting on his behalf?

[Mootinie]

If defeats have consequences, how is Solo Sikoa still in The Bloodline when he's like 0-37 since the Saudi show? He literally has not won a match since beating John Cena... https://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=22525&page=4

[DinoKea]

41 minutes ago, Mootinie said:

If defeats have consequences, how is Solo Sikoa still in The Bloodline when he's like 0-37 since the Saudi show? He literally has not won a match since beating John Cena... https://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=22525&page=4

This is a misleading statistic

30 of those matches were Dark Matches and House Shows which shouldn't count to any reasonable record

1 was a No Contest

• RAW 01/04/2024 vs. Seth Rollins (Bloodline Rules)

3 of those loss were by DQ

• Smackdown 15/12/2023 vs. AJ Styles
• Smackdown 26/01/2024 vs. LA Knight
• Smackdown 05/04/2024 vs. Jey Uso

2 were tag team match

• Smackdown 08/12/2024 vs. LA Knight & Randy Orton (Jimmy Uso pinned by Orton)
• Smackdown 12/01/2024 vs. AJ Styles, LA Knight & Randy Orton (3 v 2 Handicap, Jimmy Uso pinned by Orton)

And finally 1 pinfall loss

• Smackdown 19/01/2024 vs. Randy Orton

Which means of Solo Sikoa's 3 clean televised losses, 2 of them were because Jimmy Uso got pinned.

[CQI13]

1 hour ago, Sisma said:

I have only seen clips, so far. Was it implied that The Rock is the Tribal Chief and Solo is just acting on his behalf?

Hard to tell from the highlights posted. Heyman appeared still loyal to Roman to the point he was being intimidated by Solo. One could speculate that The Rock could still be the one calling the shots because when Kayla’s interview of Heyman was interrupted by Tama Tonga, he tells Heyman it was by orders of the Tribal Chief. When Rock came back and they showed that family tree, wasn’t he listed as “Head of the Table”? Either way, I am intrigued.

[Sisma]

24 minutes ago, CQI13 said:

Hard to tell from the highlights posted. Heyman appeared still loyal to Roman to the point he was being intimidated by Solo. One could speculate that The Rock could still be the one calling the shots because when Kayla’s interview of Heyman was interrupted by Tama Tonga, he tells Heyman it was by orders of the Tribal Chief. When Rock came back and they showed that family tree, wasn’t he listed as “Head of the Table”? Either way, I am intrigued.

Absolutely, me too! 

A lot of people have speculated that this will lead to a ''Bloodline Civil War'' and I gotta say, I love the idea. War Games between Roman / Usos and Solo / Tama Tonga / Jacob Fatu (?) and the culmination, of course, Rock vs Roman at Mania 41.

[Mootinie]

1 hour ago, DinoKea said:

This is a misleading statistic

So, instead of being 0-37, he's actually 0-1-36. 

Or 0-1-6 if House Shows don't count...

Brother, that's still an absolutely awful record. 😂

[CQI13]

6 hours ago, Mootinie said:

So, instead of being 0-37, he's actually 0-1-36. 

Or 0-1-6 if House Shows don't count...

Brother, that's still an absolutely awful record. 😂

Are we counting Solo and Jimmy as a Unit? Or Individuals? Because a lot of times in the groups there is the guy that eats all the pins in tag/multi man matches. Seems like Jimmy was the one taking the hit and he was being protected. So 0-1-1 with 6 matches that he didn’t factor into the decision in - and since Jimmy can’t carry his weight, he is out. 🙃

I wonder how the Usos will hug it out and make up. Whatever they decide to do, it’s for the best. They are not singles guys at a top level. But they are a top level tag team.