TEW2020 Discussion Thread

[TeemuFoundation]

I hate that technical wrestling is one thing now. Huge disappointment. Mat Wrestling and Chain Wrestling are so different from each other this makes no sense to me whatsoever. With all the 'MMA stuff' (MMA stat, intensity, stiffness) removed, I guess I can somewhat understand removing Submissions, though I wouldn't. All three of the current technical skills are their own thing, to find a wrestler who can do all three of them to a good level is very rare. If anything, I have always wanted Mat Wrestling to be changed to Grappling. This way it could be used more intuitively when making stats, for example, for wrestlers with an amateur background that probably have their highest top row stat be Mat Wrestling to begin with. Grappling would then include not only wrestling on the mat, but also wrestling when standing up (so clinching basically). While I am at this, the rumble stats really need a rework. It would be so much better to remove Brawling & Puroresu and instead have Striking & Throwing/Slamming.

 

Also gutted to see Fog Of War gone. Sure it was far from perfect and it had it's annoyances. Personally, I always play with it on. Not looking forward to going back to the old way.

 

To me, removing these two things is a bigger loss than any of the features I've waited for years to get in (like the Variance option actually changing something, Experience). Really hoping for some good journal entries or the game better be leaps and bounds better under-the-hood to account for removing stuff.

 

Well, at least there's finally the search by skill feature...

The game literally functions exactly the same as before, you lost nothing.

[Self]

Dang. I use fog of war all the time. I like the mystery.

[nerodragomir1]

The Fog of War leaving is a mixed bag for me. I never really used it, but I felt like with how in-depth 2020 was becoming. It was something to consider. However, I'll be just fine with it being gone. So much other, better stuff has been added. Loving the idea of finally being able to compare works side by side.

 

I'm loving the belt updates too. Only thing I want to add would be something to how Japan acts sometimes with their belts. Like you could borrow other companies titles that they use in their own company. Sorta like alliance title but it's the companies actual titles. Like AJPW Triple Crown for a New Japan show. That would be neat.

[shawn michaels]

Clearly the FOW was more popular than Adam thought, by the overwhelming response here. With that said, I do sincerely hope letter grades do not go anywhere. Cause that would start to enter into deal breaking land for me. FOW is gone, sure, I can adapt and not lose sleep over it, even though it is technically regressing, let's be honest. Technical skills were just one all along? Alrighty then. To be honest it simplifies stuff much more over, for example, the exact opposite in WMMA5, I can live with that as well. But there is only so much one can take of things being removed, so I hope letter grades are still an option.

 

On a side note, I have no idea where the whole concept that FOW was not that popular came from. I remember it was included after much demand.

 

I know the live journal hasn't even started yet, but the whole "talk to the worker stuff" could hopefully include some leverage and negotiations with the worker. Heck, this would be much appreciated when signing a worker as well. (Promised title reigns were a good thing that got removed, for example.)

[Hive]

I would argue that wrestling skills shouldn’t be one of the factors that goes towards it. ‘Vanilla midgets’ are basically the definition of guys that lack star quality. They are great in the ring but they don’t have ‘it’.

 

I get where you're coming from, but I'd argue that there have been workers that got over largely (Bret Hart, Brian Danielson) or almost entirely (Chris Benoit) due to their in-ring capabilities.

 

I agree that gimmicks should be restructured and factor into the concept of being a star in a different way, but that would be quite a drastic change - and I don't know if Ryland is looking for that at this point.

 

To further build on my previous post on Star Quality, I think it should depend on these 4 categories (based on what we know about skills in 2020 so far):

 

- Charisma (big enough to stand alone)

- Entertainment (Microphone + Acting / 2)

- In-ring abilities (Technical wrestling + Basics + Psychology + Selling + Athleticism / 5)

- Looks (Whichever stat of Power, Sex Appeal and Menace is highest)

 

Star Quality could then be the average of the 3 highest ranked of the above.

 

Let me use Hulk Hogan from my 1994 mod as an example:

 

 

The calculations would be like this:

- Charisma 98

- Entertainment 89 (84 + 94 / 2)

- In-ring abilities 63 (42 (as the highest technical stat) + 80 +83 +65 + 44 /5)

- Looks 70 (70, 61, 59)

 

Based on the above, where In-ring is eliminated as the weakest link, Hulk Hogan's Star Quality would be 98 + 89 + 70 / 3 = 86. Which is a bit low, due to the Looks category - but ideally, I'd also like to throw in a bonus to this category for size and muscles that would bring a guy like Hogan higher up. Something like + 20 % for being muscular or ripped and + 10 % for being light heavyweight +20 % for being heavyweight, + 25 % for being big heavyweight, + 30 % for super heavyweight and + 40 % for being a giant. These bonuses could be diminished over time, as wrestling evolved to care less about sizes.

 

With the new bonuses on top, Hulk Hogan's Looks would end up at 98 (for being a muscular heavyweight) - and the final calculation would be 98 + 89 + 98 /3 = 95 for Hogan's Star Quality, which I think is pretty reasonable for 1994. 10 years earlier, when he had more power and was better on the microphone, his Star Quality would be higher.

[SirMichaelJordan]

I think based on the response that alot of people have voiced today that it might've been wrong to assume that. You could just limit those search mechanics to the grades that is discovered. You could also add the vauge terms such as Excellent, Very Good ect. to include the ones you haven't.

 

Does this also mean that letter grades are removed as well?

 

Yes vague terms would be an even better option than letters anything but pure numbers really. It’s always good to have many options.

[SirMichaelJordan]

I hope the Talk To Worker feature includes "I wouldn't put him over... unless I was Kept Strong" or something to that effect.

 

I would like to see this go even deeper eventually with title belt promises and a promise to something like to be kept strong in a storyline.

[scorpion]

I think based on the response that alot of people have voiced today that it might've been wrong to assume that. You could just limit those search mechanics to the grades that is discovered. You could also add the vauge terms such as Excellent, Very Good ect. to include the ones you haven't.

 

Does this also mean that letter grades are removed as well?

 

It's fair to say it goes both ways. The people who didn't like it were more motivated to complain than those of us who liked it were to praise, and now the opposite is true. And if tomorrow he announces it's back in there'll be a bunch of people on here voicing their displeasure about that

 

I trust that he's making the best decisions for the game and if he could figure out a way to keep it with new features he will. And if not, like I said, not a make or break feature for me

[EBEZA]

It's fair to say it goes both ways. The people who didn't like it were more motivated to complain than those of us who liked it were to praise, and now the opposite is true. And if tomorrow he announces it's back in there'll be a bunch of people on here voicing their displeasure about that

 

This is 100% why keeping it as an optional feature is the best way - everybody wins.

[shawn michaels]

It's fair to say it goes both ways. The people who didn't like it were more motivated to complain than those of us who liked it were to praise, and now the opposite is true. And if tomorrow he announces it's back in there'll be a bunch of people on here voicing their displeasure about that

I trust that he's making the best decisions for the game and if he could figure out a way to keep it with new features he will. And if not, like I said, not a make or break feature for me

 

But they really wouldn't, would they? Not as long as it remained an on/off option. I do second your last paragraph, though. I do see it remaining, if possible, as the best of both worlds, if it is possible to still turn it on/off.

 

On a completely separated note, I wonder if it would be possible to create an environment like current day WWE, where some wrestlers would much rather stay at NXT then go to the main roster, or would gladly accept to return there if their personality is more geared towards creative success and all that stuff.

[Self]

I get where you're coming from, but I'd argue that there have been workers that got over largely (Bret Hart, Brian Danielson) or almost entirely (Chris Benoit) due to their in-ring capabilities.

 

Well that's the thing, isn't it? They had to be incredible in the ring because they didn't have that star quality to fall back on. Star Quality isn't a measure of how much they can get over. It's a measure of how easy it is for them to get there, and I'd argue none of them had it easy. It required years of excellent performances until people finally understood.

 

Compared to a Batista, or a Roman Reigns, or an Ultimate Warrior. For whom the matches didn't need to be as good, or the road so long.

[Hive]

Well that's the thing, isn't it? They had to be incredible in the ring because they didn't have that star quality to fall back on.

 

I'll argue that they had to be incredible in the ring because they didn't necessarily have charisma, entertainment skills or looks to fall back on. Which fits into my formula perfectly.

 

Compared to a Batista, or a Roman Reigns, or an Ultimate Warrior. For whom the matches didn't need to be as good, or the road so long.

 

Batista had charisma, looks and grew into decent entertainment skills, Roman Reigns had charisma, looks and support from stubborn McMahon's, Ultimate Warrior had charisma, looks and entertainment skills. Again, all 3 examples fit in perfectly with my formula.

 

But really, it all depends on how you choose to define "star quality".

[wwe9112]

will it still be possible to export to access database?

Thanks.

[James Casey]

Does this also mean that letter grades are removed as well?

 

I very much hope not. Sometimes I use FOW, sometimes I don't, but I always use letter grades - I miss having the big 'average' letters on the front page of a worker's profile to give you an overall idea of a worker's strengths. Moving to the smaller, but more thorough, display was a change I've never really become accustomed to, even six or seven years later! And given that it's now been that way for half of TEW's life... Well, I'm a stick in the mud!

 

But letter grades are a nice compromise for me between full FOW and full transparency; You have a good idea of how well someone would perform, but not perfect.

[TheChef]

I've been following the journal on an almost daily basis and my excitement for the game was through the roof... until this week. What a disaster.

 

First was the technical skills announcement. I wasn't too fussed that they were consolidated but I was dismayed to discover that only one of the skills has been used in calculations, rendering the other two purely cosmetic. How many other skills are not actually used in the calculations? Are there other redundant skills?

 

That, however, is nothing compared to the loss of Fog of War. I have actually been hoping this game would have a way to limit how much we know about wrestlers, instead it just gives us everything about everyone all at once. It is just so unrealistic that a booker would know everything about every wrestler in the world. The game needs to be harder, not easier, and removing FOW removes any semblance of challenge from the game. We should be relying somewhat on our own judgement of workers and trying to figure out just how good or bad they are through their work, not seeing every little thing about them down to a percentage point. I couldn't even rate my own ability at anything down to a percentage point, let alone that of all my peers.

 

Sorry if this has been a bit of a rant, but it really is deal-breaking for me. I don't want to play a maths game, I want to play a wrestling sim.

[FINisher]

Wait what? Hell nah. FoW is here to stay, the less I know about my workers the better. That's one of the main reasons I created my graphics mod that replaced all numbers from 00 to 100 to F- to A* letter grades.

 

Shameless plug!

[TeemuFoundation]

How would even come up in the game that someone is good at submissions? There are no match reports. The fact that people didn’t even know only the highest technical skill came into play in match calculations, shows that everything will be fine.

[Winter8905]

It just shows that not as much work went into the game calculations from the very start of the series

 

Matt Wrestling and Submissions are two very different things so why are they the same? Why is the game being nerfed down rather than made more nuanced to make it more realistic?

 

It's stuff like that which makes me question how is the games re-write and implementation of new features going to be handled. More of the same, that'll do, mentality?

 

I dunno, it's been a bad week overall for announcements tbh.

[John Lions]

Also chiming in that removing Fog of War entirely is huge for me. One thing that turns me off from a lot of sports simulations is that they give you exact number stats. You DON'T know how good someone is, on a 1-100 scale, the minute they decide they want to start wrestling. I think Fog of War can be tweaked so that the stats are "hidden" but can still be referenced for comparisons just like in WMMA. A lot of people are arguing that "once you play you find out who the studs are" or play real world mods where you know who the studs are. With the new variance options, it doesn't seem very fun that you can't hide those stats. Additionally, Fog of War has been the most exciting feature for me because I play super small level and I play long games. I don't know how good half of my guys are and I find out by just judging their performances. It has let me push guys I normally wouldn't because of that, and sign guys I normally wouldn't. If there is any way to keep Fog of War in, I am strongly advocating for it. I don't want to have to use a visual mod to have a half-baked Fog of War when it can be built in to the system.

[TLCJR4LIFE]

Really? I was always under the impression that Flashiness was connected to Ariel, and Ariel alone. Like the difference between a plain cruiserweight like, say, Billy Kidman back in the day having just some Ariel, and a Ricochet now having lots of Flashiness to go along with it, with having lots more Flashiness than Ariel being a good indicator that a person is all flips and no real ability to put on a good cruiserweight/lucha match.

 

 

No this isn’t how it works in the game engine. This is why flashiness is an integral stat on the Creative Meeting for Show Stoppers

[Anggur Merah]

"Companies can now move title belts between themselves and their various child companies simply via the regular titles screen. This allows developmental titles to be get defended on main shows, main company titles to be taken out to child companies, the parent to buy defunct titles and send them out to their children, etc, etc"

 

YESSSS...!!! Finally, it's in the game! Thank you.

[BrokenCycle]

Fog of War wasn't popular because it was implemented poorly in TEW. It took FOREVER for the levels to increase and show more stats, and there was no way to speed up the process through other game mechanics.

 

Also WMMA has Fog of War and you can compare stats just fine in a way that makes sense.

 

That said, though, I don't care that it's gone. But it could have been improved.

[snakesonaplane]

On FOW, with the new option of extreme variance to databases FOW seems like a perfect feature to pair with it for a challenge, meaning even in RW databases when you would know many good workers by definition, the reality of the variance options means you couldn't be as sure. Removing FOW completely kind of makes variance redundant?

 

On Star quality, I agree with others here its better as a weighted average stat combination or similar, as at the end of the day there are tangible factors that contribute to star quality. If this isnt changed then much greater growth or random events need to be added to boost and nerf the stat to make each game more dynamic.

 

On merging top row stats, in a sense making one tech skill makes things harder as mod makers will need to rebalance the whole database, as now you cant rate someone good at subs but bad at chain wrestling (which are different styles). I think the solution maybe should have been to make the match ratings more intelligent, as opposed to simplifying it.

 

Why not remove puroresu in this case? So you have top row of striking, technical, high flying?

[christmas_ape]

On FOW, with the new option of extreme variance to databases FOW seems like a perfect feature to pair with it for a challenge, meaning even in RW databases when you would know many good workers by definition, the reality of the variance options means you couldn't be as sure. Removing FOW completely kind of makes variance redundant?

 

Yeah that's a good point. Now that you mention the main reason I love the option for extreme variance feature is how unpredictable it can make the game, but with no FOG it still means there will be some variance on who gets bigger.

 

Although I would miss FoW, playing devils advocate for a moment you could say the new and improved potential system sort of does part of the job. If there is now more variety in how a worker develops then I suppose there is still that level on unpredictability as even if you know a workers stats at the beginning, it's now hopefully less simple to predict their growth. Perhaps someone with good in ring stats but poor charisma has already peaked in ring but actually has amazing potential for promos if given the time to develop.

 

That said, FoW, extreme variance and the new different types of potential would make for a really dynamic game world where it's never 100% clear who will develop to be the best, and it's never the same in each game.

[TeemuFoundation]

Super cool additions today. Makes the workers feel more human, adds a layer of interaction between you and the workers, and just makes it feel like you're dealing with an actual locker room. I like stuff like this in the game in general. I speedrun the game Mega Man X, which is super heavy on RNG, and was just discussing with a friend of mine about what is it about the damn game that has us coming back over and over. And we both agreed that it's the casino effect, caused by the RNG.

 

So randomness like this a great thing in my books, especially since it's still keeping with the "real world" of pro wrestling, and totally fits in.