Difference between bumping and selling lost in TEW

[Morti]

I had a psychological thought recently, and that is the difference between selling and bumping and that it is not really represented in TEW.

 

Take as an example William Regal, who at his peak was a good if not great bumper, but an absolutely amazing seller of pain for his whole career, his facial expressions were great at showing how painful the moves inflicted on him supposedly felt.

But since selling is one stat in TEW this, to me, important differentiation isn't shown.

I would put Regal in the low 80's at his peak for pure bumping skill, while I would put his selling in the upper 90's (yes I am serious with this).

 

For a more severe difference I propose the case of a young John Cena, who in mods from 2003-2010 always has low selling, which in term of bumping I totally agree with. But in terms of showing emotion in the ring, selling injuries and showing true pain in his face for submissions, it was clear that Cena really got what selling a move truly meant.

This however won't be shown in TEW's selling stat.

I would say a young Cena would have from 50's to 60's in a bumping stat while a high 70's to mid 80's in a selling stat.

 

I know there is a "acting" stat in TEW of course, but am unsure of this having any effect in matches, and acting in an angle is not the same thing as selling a move in a match, so don't think they should be spliced either.

 

Has this been discussed in our community before? Have I missed something? Or am I just completely wrong? Feedback would be greatly appreciated!

[crownsy]

I had a psychological thought recently, and that is the difference between selling and bumping and that it is not really represented in TEW.

 

Take as an example William Regal, who at his peak was a good if not great bumper, but an absolutely amazing seller of pain for his whole career, his facial expressions were great at showing how painful the moves inflicted on him supposedly felt.

But since selling is one stat in TEW this, to me, important differentiation isn't shown.

I would put Regal in the low 80's at his peak for pure bumping skill, while I would put his selling in the upper 90's (yes I am serious with this).

 

For a more severe difference I propose the case of a young John Cena, who in mods from 2003-2010 always has low selling, which in term of bumping I totally agree with. But in terms of showing emotion in the ring, selling injuries and showing true pain in his face for submissions, it was clear that Cena really got what selling a move truly meant.

This however won't be shown in TEW's selling stat.

I would say a young Cena would have from 50's to 60's in a bumping stat while a high 70's to mid 80's in a selling stat.

 

I know there is a "acting" stat in TEW of course, but am unsure of this having any effect in matches, and acting in an angle is not the same thing as selling a move in a match, so don't think they should be spliced either.

 

Has this been discussed in our community before? Have I missed something? Or am I just completely wrong? Feedback would be greatly appreciated!

 

I've just always assumed better "selling" of emotion of the match is represented by guys with high scores in ring psychology

[Morti]

I've just always assumed better "selling" of emotion of the match is represented by guys with high scores in ring psychology

 

I get that's part of it yeah, but again may be difficult to put into psychology with young "green" wrestlers who show emotion well but aren't considered nowhere close an in ring general. Take again young Cena for example.

 

I also fully recognise that I may be overthinking this fully and I know you can't have a stat for every little thing but I just feel that this difference is of importance.

[Vinsmoker]

I would say that is sorta covered with Flashiness, Basics, Psychology and to some extent Reputation & Respect

[TeemuFoundation]

Yea, I always considered selling being solely the ability to fake out pain in a wrestling match. Facial expressions, body language and all that. And then flashiness is the Dolph Ziggler/Mr. Perfect style of visually impressive overselling/bumping. Or rather, one of the things covered by flashiness.

[Remianen]

I think you're overthinking this. Given how difficult it's been over the years to explain to people what each stat is, trying to explain to casual wrestling fans the difference between bumping and selling would be a step too far. You're trying to explain a nuance that people outside the business don't care about. To 90% of the audience, selling is bumping+selling. Most people look at Shawn Michaels vs Hulk Hogan at Summerslam in 2005 and think Shawn did a hell of a job selling for Hulk when people who are a bit more experienced with wrestling know it was overdone. Most of the audience doesn't care about the distinction you're making.

 

Just chalk it up as a concession to gameplay.

[Morti]

Yea, I always considered selling being solely the ability to fake out pain in a wrestling match. Facial expressions, body language and all that. And then flashiness is the Dolph Ziggler/Mr. Perfect style of visually impressive overselling/bumping. Or rather, one of the things covered by flashiness.

 

If this is the case then I do think that some people who excels the body language and facial expressions but struggle with bumping are rated wrongly in some real life mods, again people like Regal and Cena.

[EricSpade]

Bumping should actually fall mostly under the Basics skill, because taking bumps is one of the bases of wrestling. When you start training, the first things they teach you are the basic fundamentals, and that always starts with bumping.

 

Selling is more the ability to make a move or submission and the pain from it look believable and realistic, by using facial expressions, vocal sounds (like groans of pain), and the way you use your body (holding an arm at your side or limping). Bumping can factor into selling, but only a little bit, and really comes from being able to add that extra flair to your bumps, like Hennig or RVD.

[TeemuFoundation]

If this is the case then I do think that some people who excels the body language and facial expressions but struggle with bumping are rated wrongly in some real life mods, again people like Regal and Cena.

I don't know anything about real world mods by others since I always make my own. Precisely due to reasons like this.

[Morti]

Bumping should actually fall mostly under the Basics skill, because taking bumps is one of the bases of wrestling. When you start training, the first things they teach you are the basic fundamentals, and that always starts with bumping.

 

Selling is more the ability to make a move or submission and the pain from it look believable and realistic, by using facial expressions, vocal sounds (like groans of pain), and the way you use your body (holding an arm at your side or limping). Bumping can factor into selling, but only a little bit, and really comes from being able to add that extra flair to your bumps, like Hennig or RVD.

 

Yes! Agreed. That adds to my thoughts, and how I think it should be. But I think mods fail to do this maybe because they think bumping first. Also Teemu, thats fair and maybe something I should consider doing myself more even with all the extra work.

[Historian]

The only issue I have with this is that this assumes that there is one way to bump and that as the OP said, guys like Cena struggle with bumping, except Cena doesn't struggle with bumping. While he is not the most graceful person in the world, he has consistently been able to take all of the bumps he has had to take in his position and role. I was fortunate enough to see Cena in OVW and he was a bumping machine.

 

I think bumping is covered by a mixture of both 'basics' and 'selling' as the idea of basics are that you have mastered the fundamentals of wrestling, of which bumping is a part. Selling is the ability to make the bumps matter and register as well as convey pain and emotion and all of that that goes into making a match memorable.

 

Regal also never, even in his old age, struggled with bumping -- he just bumped less because he worked a style that required less bumping.

 

Anyway, I think that bumpins is already covered under basics and you don't have to worry. Having an added skill there would only make it that much more difficult for mod makers (who already have a difficult time trying to give any kind of approximation for someone's skills) and create more work that would have little to no effect on the end result.

[BuddyGarner]

I'm all for more stats adds more personality to the wrestlers.

[TeemuFoundation]

I'm all for more stats adds more personality to the wrestlers.

Pls no. When it comes to in-ring skills, we need less stats, not more. Making the technical stat into one stat from the old three was a good start, but there's much more fat that could be trimmed out.

[LoganRodzen]

Pls no. When it comes to in-ring skills, we need less stats, not more. Making the technical stat into one stat from the old three was a good start, but there's much more fat that could be trimmed out.

 

Let's not get that debate going again. I think Mat and Chain wrestling should have been combined but Submissions should still be separate. It isn't a deal-breaker by any means but not something I entirely agree with.

 

I'm all for more stats adds more personality to the wrestlers.

 

I think all of the new attributes we can assign to workers will make up for that. Those will give a lot more detail and bring the characters to life.

 

I think you're overthinking this. Given how difficult it's been over the years to explain to people what each stat is, trying to explain to casual wrestling fans the difference between bumping and selling would be a step too far. You're trying to explain a nuance that people outside the business don't care about. To 90% of the audience, selling is bumping+selling. Most people look at Shawn Michaels vs Hulk Hogan at Summerslam in 2005 and think Shawn did a hell of a job selling for Hulk when people who are a bit more experienced with wrestling know it was overdone. Most of the audience doesn't care about the distinction you're making.

 

Just chalk it up as a concession to gameplay.

 

I can absolutely understand where you are coming from but I'd love to see some real statistics that show how many casual fans play the TEW series. I'm sure a ton of casual fans played EWR and a lot of them still do play EWR 4.2 to this day (heck, I even have the zipped file on my computer after all of these years). But I'm not so sure that the casual or even all hardcore wrestling fans play TEW. Its a very specific game that has a lot of moving parts. Its also a lot harder for someone to jump on board a game like this without ever playing it. The learning curve is difficult for this series and that has nothing to do with the stats people have.

[gazwefc83]

For me bumping definitely falls under the 'basics' skill.

 

It's things like foot work, bumping, running the ropes etc that I would class as 'basics'

[Self]

These things are always open to interpretation. Most categories involve elements. Everything can make sense in multiple categories.

 

I've always considered Selling to be everything involved with taking the ass-kicking in a match. Bumping. Taking moves. Selling pain and injuries. It's a combination of everything. So someone with a C in selling could be an excellent bumper who forgets to sell the move 5 seconds later, or could be an awkward reluctant bumper who sandbags every suplex but is incredibly sympathetic when registering pain. Or could be solid at both but nothing special. That's where I look at the rest of their stats, their size, their build, their backstory, to fill in the gaps.

[DeathZone2]

I'd say bumping is how you react to pain, how you sell the bump and how "real" or "painful" you make it look, while consistent selling goes under psychology.It's why psychology is such a weird stat that's open to a lot of interpretation. I find that psychology is the ability to construct a match that makes sense, consistent selling, working the crowd, moving from spot to spot in a consistent and believable way, but others might have a different interpretation, similar to selling people interpret stats differently. That's why I'd love a bumping stat in the game or to just have a lot of stats broken down, because someone may be excellent at one aspect and not as great at another ala Chris Jericho.

[TeemuFoundation]

<p>Hard no on more stats tbh. The TEW modding scene is tiny compared to EWR, and the TEW games need to be made more approachable for modding, not less. And so many of this stuff is so subjective anyway. The modders are not wrestlers. They don't work in the wrestling industry. They don't know what psychology is. We can only guess and estimate. The more specific the stats, the worse the mods IMO.</p><p> </p><p>

I know this will never happen, but if it were up to me, wrestlers would have "in ring" and "mic skills", and then style, and that would be that lol. Or maybe "athleticism" to determine the ability to execute, and then "psychology" to determine the knowledge of what to execute. And the combo of these two would be a match rating.</p>

[Vinsmoker]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TeemuFoundation" data-cite="TeemuFoundation" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47362" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> I know this will never happen, but if it were up to me, wrestlers would have "in ring" and "mic skills", and then style, and that would be that lol. Or maybe "athleticism" to determine the ability to execute, and then "psychology" to determine the knowledge of what to execute. And the combo of these two would be a match rating.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> That wouldn't be a Wrestling Manager game anymore then.</p>

[TeemuFoundation]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Vinsmoker" data-cite="Vinsmoker" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47362" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>That wouldn't be a Wrestling Manager game anymore then.</div></blockquote><p> Of course it would?</p>

[Roger Sterling]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TeemuFoundation" data-cite="TeemuFoundation" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47362" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Hard no on more stats tbh. The TEW modding scene is tiny compared to EWR, and the TEW games need to be made more approachable for modding, not less. And so many of this stuff is so subjective anyway. The modders are not wrestlers. They don't work in the wrestling industry. They don't know what psychology is. We can only guess and estimate. The more specific the stats, the worse the mods IMO.<p> </p><p> I know this will never happen, but if it were up to me, wrestlers would have "in ring" and "mic skills", and then style, and that would be that lol. Or maybe "athleticism" to determine the ability to execute, and then "psychology" to determine the knowledge of what to execute. And the combo of these two would be a match rating.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I like that.</p>

[Vinsmoker]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TeemuFoundation" data-cite="TeemuFoundation" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47362" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Of course it would?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Not anymore than the GM modes in the WWE games is.</p>

[djthefunkchris]

I tend to agree with most, but I definitely look at the personality stats of "conservative" and "liberal" as to how big of a bump one might take...

 

So here is my take. If a worker is very liberal, they are willing to take bigger bumps. Selling tells me how good they sell this bump.

 

So a guy that is more conservative will take less risks, but might be able to sell a bare chest slap better than anyone else because of their high selling.

 

A guy with no selling ability might take a bump off the top of a cage with high liberal, but unless really hurt, might get back up and wrestle as if he didn't just do that.

 

I know liberal and conservative mean other things as well, like will they do this stupid gimmick, etc. But that's how I been looking at it for a while.

[Rone Rivendale]

The more stats the better. It's a management sim. If you want shallow gameplay, play WWE 2K.

[djthefunkchris]

The more stats the better. It's a management sim. If you want shallow gameplay, play WWE 2K.

 

One of the old WWE/F games (might have been WWE SvR 2006, might have been one earlier) is what brought me to EWD/EWR in the first place, which led me to TEW games, around 2006.

 

I'm all for more stats that "count". I'm not for fluff stats, one of the reasons I didn't say anything about some of the wrestling stats being combined this year. If they were doing exactly the same thing, what's the point in having two?

 

If Adam wants a separate stat for "Bumping"... I'm only good with it if it does something other stats do not.

 

In my previous post I mentioned selling being what is going to sell a bump, no matter the size. IF you leap off the top of a cage and jump up like nothing happened, the bump was totally wasted. If you jump off the top and sell it like you need to go to the hospital, it makes it a huge deal. If you get slammed on the mat, and you sell it really great, you can make it look like it was a big bump.

 

The only thing a high "Bumping" stat can do in my eyes, is tell you how big of a bump it is, but not how well they sell it. Again I point to the Conservative vs Liberal. I feel like someone very liberal is willing to take that big bump over someone that is conservative.

 

I just feel that you're not considering the selling stat to be as important as it is in the game, or somethings going completely over my head (wouldn't be the first time).